After 10,000 years in Heaven

H. Richard · Jun 4, 2016

StanJ said:
This does not deal with our life of immortality, this deals with our walk of salvation which is not quite the same thing.

Of course it does. You must of just glanced at the verses. "16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"

We are, right now, the children of God.

TravisT · Jun 4, 2016

StanJ said:
Part of the reason it will be new is because there will be no seas, and the only water that will be there will be in the River of Life. The other reason it will be new it's because it won't be subject to time or deterioration. It will be at the beginning as it will always be on that in our concept of time and now it will be forever, as we exist then there will be no time as it will be irrelevant. That's why Paul teaches that everything will have it end accept love.

Stan,

Here is what Randy Alcorn has to say about time in the new earth. I find it very enlightening Source: http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/3/will-there-be-space-and-time-eternal-heaven/

Will We Experience Time in Heaven?
Scripture says, “With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Peter 3:8). Does this mean there will be no time in Heaven?
The natural understanding of a New Earth is that it would exist in space and time, with a future unfolding progressively, just as it does now. Yet people repeatedly say there will be “no time in Heaven.” One theologian argues, “What a relief and what joy to know that in heaven there will be no more time.”[7] Another writer says, “Heaven will be a place where time will stand still.”[8]
Where do such ideas come from? A misleading translation in the King James Version of the Bible says that “there should be time no longer” (Revelation 10:6). This was the basis for theologians such as Abraham Kuyper to conclude there will be no time in Heaven. But other versions correctly translate this phrase “There will be no more delay!” (niv, rsv), which means not that time itself will cease but that there is no time left before God’s judgment is executed.
Other people are confused because they remember the phrase “Time shall be no more” and think it’s from the Bible. It’s actually from a hymn. Ironically, the same hymn speaks of “When the morning breaks . . .” Both the words morningand when are references to time.
John Newton’s hymn “Amazing Grace” describes a better grasp of time:
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise,
Than when we’d first begun.[9]
Scripture contains many other evidences of time in Heaven:

Heaven’s inhabitants track with events happening in time, right down to rejoicing the moment a sinner on Earth repents (Luke 15:7).
Martyrs in Heaven are told to “wait a little longer” when they ask “how long” before Christ would judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge the martyrs’ blood (Revelation 6:10-11). Those in Heaven couldn’t ask “how long” or be told “wait a little longer” unless time passes in Heaven.
Paul spoke of Heaven in terms of “the coming ages” (Ephesians 2:7). He speaks not just of a future age but of ages (plural).
God’s people in Heaven “serve him day and night in his temple” (Revelation 7:15).
The tree of life on the New Earth will be “yielding its fruit every month” (Revelation 22:2). There are days and months both in the intermediate and eternal Heaven.
God says, “the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me. . . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me” (Isaiah 66:22-23). New Moons and Sabbaths require moon, sun, and time.
God said, “Summer and winter, day and night will never cease” (Genesis 8:22). This wasn’t the result of the Curse; it was God’s original design.
We’re told that “there was silence in heaven for about half an hour” (Revelation 8:1).
The book of Revelation shows the intermediate Heaven’s inhabitants operating within time. The descriptions of worship include successive actions, such as falling down at God’s throne and casting crowns before him (Revelation 4:10). There’s a sequence of events; things occur one after another, not all at once.
The inhabitants of Heaven sing (Revelation 5:9-12). Music in Heaven requires time. Meter, tempo, and rests are all essential components of music, and each is time related. Certain notes are held longer than others. Songs have a beginning, middle, and end. That means they take place in time.

How can Scripture be any more clear about time in Heaven? (Right down to silence in Heaven for half an hour.) To say we’ll exist outside of time is like saying we’ll know everything. It confuses eternity with infinity. We’ll live for eternity as finite beings. God can accommodate to us by putting himself into time, but we can’t accommodate to him by becoming timeless. It’s not in us to do so because we’re not God. Writers frequently distinguish between the Greek words kronos and kairos, viewing the former as “human time” or “quantity of time” and the latter as “God’s time” or “quality of time.” It’s suggested that in eternity we’ll live no longer in kronos but in kairos. However, it’s unclear what this means. Will we still live in chronological sequence, where one word, step, or event follows the previous and is followed by the next? The Bible’s answer isyes.

StanJ · Jun 5, 2016

H. Richard said:
Of course it does. You must of just glanced at the verses. "16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"
We are, right now, the children of God.

Right, so what is your point?

StanJ · Jun 5, 2016

Administrator said:
Stan,

Here is what Randy Alcorn has to say about time in the new earth. I find it very enlightening Source: http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/3/will-there-be-space-and-time-eternal-heaven/

Will We Experience Time in Heaven?
Scripture says, “With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Peter 3:8). Does this mean there will be no time in Heaven?
The natural understanding of a New Earth is that it would exist in space and time, with a future unfolding progressively, just as it does now. Yet people repeatedly say there will be “no time in Heaven.” One theologian argues, “What a relief and what joy to know that in heaven there will be no more time.”[7] Another writer says, “Heaven will be a place where time will stand still.”[8]
Where do such ideas come from? A misleading translation in the King James Version of the Bible says that “there should be time no longer” (Revelation 10:6). This was the basis for theologians such as Abraham Kuyper to conclude there will be no time in Heaven. But other versions correctly translate this phrase “There will be no more delay!” (niv, rsv), which means not that time itself will cease but that there is no time left before God’s judgment is executed.
Other people are confused because they remember the phrase “Time shall be no more” and think it’s from the Bible. It’s actually from a hymn. Ironically, the same hymn speaks of “When the morning breaks . . .” Both the words morningand when are references to time.
John Newton’s hymn “Amazing Grace” describes a better grasp of time:
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise,
Than when we’d first begun.[9]
Scripture contains many other evidences of time in Heaven:

Heaven’s inhabitants track with events happening in time, right down to rejoicing the moment a sinner on Earth repents (Luke 15:7).

Martyrs in Heaven are told to “wait a little longer” when they ask “how long” before Christ would judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge the martyrs’ blood (Revelation 6:10-11). Those in Heaven couldn’t ask “how long” or be told “wait a little longer” unless time passes in Heaven.

Paul spoke of Heaven in terms of “the coming ages” (Ephesians 2:7). He speaks not just of a future age but of ages (plural).

God’s people in Heaven “serve him day and night in his temple” (Revelation 7:15).

The tree of life on the New Earth will be “yielding its fruit every month” (Revelation 22:2). There are days and months both in the intermediate and eternal Heaven.

God says, “the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me. . . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me” (Isaiah 66:22-23). New Moons and Sabbaths require moon, sun, and time.

God said, “Summer and winter, day and night will never cease” (Genesis 8:22). This wasn’t the result of the Curse; it was God’s original design.

We’re told that “there was silence in heaven for about half an hour” (Revelation 8:1).

The book of Revelation shows the intermediate Heaven’s inhabitants operating within time. The descriptions of worship include successive actions, such as falling down at God’s throne and casting crowns before him (Revelation 4:10). There’s a sequence of events; things occur one after another, not all at once.

The inhabitants of Heaven sing (Revelation 5:9-12). Music in Heaven requires time. Meter, tempo, and rests are all essential components of music, and each is time related. Certain notes are held longer than others. Songs have a beginning, middle, and end. That means they take place in time.

How can Scripture be any more clear about time in Heaven? (Right down to silence in Heaven for half an hour.) To say we’ll exist outside of time is like saying we’ll know everything. It confuses eternity with infinity. We’ll live for eternity as finite beings. God can accommodate to us by putting himself into time, but we can’t accommodate to him by becoming timeless. It’s not in us to do so because we’re not God. Writers frequently distinguish between the Greek words kronos and kairos, viewing the former as “human time” or “quantity of time” and the latter as “God’s time” or “quality of time.” It’s suggested that in eternity we’ll live no longer in kronos but in kairos. However, it’s unclear what this means. Will we still live in chronological sequence, where one word, step, or event follows the previous and is followed by the next? The Bible’s answer isyes.

Sorry, but there are so many things wrong with this that I am not even going to bother to address it because if you've already accepted it then you'll be resistant to anything I have to say. All I will say is time will tell.

TravisT · Jun 5, 2016

Stan I would like to be corrected if I am wrong.

it seems to be by saying there is no time on the new earth is saying there is no change in movement or thought. If there was no time in heaven we would be static. we are made perfect on the new earth in our humanity. By becoming timeless makes us more God like and that is not possible.

TravisT · Jun 5, 2016

Does anyone else see anything wrong with Acorn's statements about time in the new earth? This is about edifying each other and growing.

StanJ · Jun 5, 2016

Administrator said:
Stan I would like to be corrected if I am wrong.

it seems to be by saying there is no time on the new earth is saying there is no change in movement or thought. If there was no time in heaven we would be static. we are made perfect on the new earth in our humanity. By becoming timeless makes us more God like and that is not possible.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong I'm just supporting my position with my rationale. Obviously we won't know until it actually happens, but as God existed before he created time and as there will be no reason to have time after the new heaven and new earth are created then I can't see any possible reason for having time. Your rationale is based on your own time perspective, which is not the only perspective and was not always God's perspective until He created time. Hence the reason why Peter said to God A Thousand Years is as a day because when you don't exist in time or not governed by time than the thousand years is meaningless. Staticness has to do with time but it doesn't necessarily apply to an non-time situation. God was not static or stagnant before he created time so I'm not sure why you would think that we would be stagnant or static after he eliminated time?

TravisT · Jun 6, 2016

I think some form of time will exist in the new earth. When God created time he said it was good. The new Heavens and Earth will be the renewal of the Heavens and the Earth. Plus God Loves music and we will worship him with music and song. You cannot have music and song without time. I do believe time will be different or in the fact that we will have an unlimited supply of it so it will not matter. Ether way we will have an eternity to discuss it and study it on the new earth Stan.

You told me there was so much wrong with Acorn's Statements and I would like to know where he is wrong. Not trying to start and argument I believe this is how we each grow. I find them very compelling but I am always open to seeing another perspective.

StanJ · Jun 6, 2016

Administrator said:
I think some form of time will exist in the new earth. When God created time he said it was good. The new Heavens and Earth will be the renewal of the Heavens and the Earth. Plus God Loves music and we will worship him with music and song. You cannot have music and song without time. I do believe time will be different or in the fact that we will have an unlimited supply of it so it will not matter. Ether way we will have an eternity to discuss it and study it on the new earth Stan.

You told me there was so much wrong with Acorn's Statements and I would like to know where he is wrong. Not trying to start and argument I believe this is how we each grow. I find them very compelling but I am always open to seeing another perspective.

Well that only means you're a linear thinker and nothing particularly wrong with that but it doesn't always work in this regard. Where exactly do you see that we will worship Him with music and song after Revelation 21? The Bible says 'we will know as we have been known', and to me this means a very unique and kindred relationship with God to the point where we won't necessarily need words to express our worship but just our thoughts of which God obviously knows.
As I said before I don't agree with Acorn and there's way too many things for me to want to even address. Obviously you are convinced by them but I see their faultiness. His very first point is an assumption with no explanation or evidence whatsoever. Besides the only inhabitants that are in heaven are God and the angels and as we've already determined God is not bound buy time, nevertheless that he can see what happens in time and along with his angels rejoice about that, is not highly implausible for the God of creation.

TravisT · Jun 7, 2016

Stan,

You put your two cents into this post by saying time does not exist on the new earth and then when i provided some reasoning that time does exist in some form on the new earth you resorted to just saying there is so much wrong with Alcorn's reasoning and then when asked to tell me why you just say there is so much wrong with it that you will not even address it and that tells me you cannot. You claim that in Randy's first point he is making an assumption but then claim that when paul says that on the new earth we will know as we are known to mean time will not exist. All that is stated there is we will know in a more full way then we know now. Existence is ether in time or outside of time. By saying we will exist outside of time is giving us an attribute that only God has you have also made the statement that we will know all there is to know another attribute of God. Sounds like you think we will be more Godlike when we are made perfect.

I think you need to humble yourself before our Great God. creation will be renewed not transfored from the creature to the creator. Like i said many times i am always willing to have my mind changed given a very good reason but you have not provided any other then calling someone who has spent countless hours studying Heaven an idiot.

TravisT · Jun 7, 2016

Lets assume you are right that time will not exist in Heaven. Using my definition of time as the measure of change. I would not be able to lift up my arms in praise because that would require time. One minute my arms are up in praise and the next they are not. But than again i will not be able to speak or think because i will not have language. How are we supposed to reign with Christ without time? You are painting a picture of the new earth that is static and void of humanity that is very unappealing not to mention unbiblical.

StanJ · Jun 7, 2016

Administrator said:
Stan,
You put your two cents into this post by saying time does not exist on the new earth and then when i provided some reasoning that time does exist in some form on the new earth you resorted to just saying there is so much wrong with Alcorn's reasoning and then when asked to tell me why you just say there is so much wrong with it that you will not even address it and that tells me you cannot. You claim that in Randy's first point he is making an assumption but then claim that when paul says that on the new earth we will know as we are known to mean time will not exist. All that is stated there is we will know in a more full way then we know now. Existence is ether in time or outside of time. By saying we will exist outside of time is giving us an attribute that only God has you have also made the statement that we will know all there is to know another attribute of God. Sounds like you think we will be more Godlike when we are made perfect.
I think you need to humble yourself before our Great God. creation will be renewed not transfored from the creature to the creator. Like i said many times i am always willing to have my mind changed given a very good reason but you have not provided any other then calling someone who has spent countless hours studying Heaven an idiot.

I think you need to be less defensive and more open to possibilities. Funny how your input is reasoning but my input is 2 cents.
I think that pretty much says it all. Exactly who did I call an idiot?

StanJ · Jun 7, 2016

Administrator said:
Lets assume you are right that time will not exist in Heaven. Using my definition of time as the measure of change. I would not be able to lift up my arms in praise because that would require time. One minute my arms are up in praise and the next they are not. But than again i will not be able to speak or think because i will not have language. How are we supposed to reign with Christ without time? You are painting a picture of the new earth that is static and void of humanity that is very unappealing not to mention unbiblical.

There's only one definition of times I'm not really sure why you say "my definition of time"? As I said before your linear thinking is the problem, not the fact there won't be any time. I have no idea how you conclude the lack of time prevents us from doing anything.
Is that what you think God did before he created time, nothing?

TravisT · Jun 7, 2016

StanJ said:
There's only one definition of times I'm not really sure why you say "my definition of time"? As I said before your linear thinking is the problem, not the fact there won't be any time. I have no idea how you conclude the lack of time prevents us from doing anything.
Is that what you think God did before he created time, nothing?

I guess thats what im asking. Im trying to understand your position. Im trying to understand how we could be timeless. Gods timelessness implies his other attributes. Im saying its two cents because you are unwilling to explain it more.

TravisT · Jun 8, 2016

Stan,

Your not explaining your position correctly and i deleted your last comment because it almost got you banned from the site. Most theological discourses I have read do not talk about us being timeless. You keep talking about God being timeless but that does not mean we will be. Time is not a bad thing.

TravisT · Jun 8, 2016

Ill agree that we do not know if time will exist as it does now or time it will be different. I was looking to have a conversation about it but i see that is not possible.

Angelina · Jun 8, 2016

Stan, If you want to have a good discussion on this topic, you gotta clarify your position. Just because some else sees things differently, doesn't mean they got it wrong. Try again and this time without the glib remarks... :huh:

StanJ · Jun 8, 2016

Administrator said:
Stan,
Your not explaining your position correctly and i deleted your last comment because it almost got you banned from the site. Most theological discourses I have read do not talk about us being timeless. You keep talking about God being timeless but that does not mean we will be. Time is not a bad thing.

I'll make it easy for you I won't be coming back to the site.

lforrest · Jun 8, 2016

Time is not necessary for actions. If it were the universe could never have been created.

I imagine in a timeless situation your actions would become like a part of who you are. For example someone in heaven may be kneeling before the throne worshiping, sitting at the Lord's table, spending time under the tree of life, and much more all at the same time. Such a concept as timelessness is mind boggling for us since we know only existence with time.

I don't know of any scriptures that point to God alone being timeless.

Bye Stan

Angelina · Jun 8, 2016

StanJ said:
I'll make it easy for you I won't be coming back to the site.

...come on Stan, I never took you for a quitter... :embarrassed-smiley53: come back...

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