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In the end, all that will remain is love. God is spirit, the Lord is the Spirit.StanJ said:
So earthly.
Where your heart is, there lays your treasure!
That is mind boggling for sure. Can you point me to any theological studies on this topic. I am very interested in this. Of course the universe could have not been created without a timeless God but once it was created along with us time exists. Why would we assume that God would do away with it? Being in many places at once seems more like a Godlike property. Time once created God called good so why would it not be part of our existence on the new earth?lforrest said:
In the end all that will remain is God for us and love is just one of God's many attributes. He is also power and wisdom and so much more.Tiny said:
- Aug 10, 2012
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I am not aware of theological studies on the subject. I don't know if the new-earth is timeless, but heaven I believe is.
Genesis 8:22
“As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.”
These are all time dependent events, so it stands to reason that time will exist as well. The question is does this include the new earth?
Isaiah 9:7
"Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this."
If time continues on the new earth it will continue forever because the new earth will last forever. So either time ends with the old earth or it doesn't end.
Revelation 22:1-3
"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse."
That there is a monthly harvest, be it for the nations or in the city there it is a reference to time in the new kingdom. Tie this back to the beginning,
Genesis 3:17
To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
This curse is gone with Rev 22:3, and what does Rev 22:2 describe but a harvest, well I guess the harvest will have switched to the tree of life.
Genesis 8:22
“As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease.”
These are all time dependent events, so it stands to reason that time will exist as well. The question is does this include the new earth?
Isaiah 9:7
"Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this."
If time continues on the new earth it will continue forever because the new earth will last forever. So either time ends with the old earth or it doesn't end.
Revelation 22:1-3
"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse."
That there is a monthly harvest, be it for the nations or in the city there it is a reference to time in the new kingdom. Tie this back to the beginning,
Genesis 3:17
To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.
This curse is gone with Rev 22:3, and what does Rev 22:2 describe but a harvest, well I guess the harvest will have switched to the tree of life.
Here is an post from C Michael Patton. He is a Th.M. Founder/President of Credo House Ministries and creator of the Theology Program. He is the most frequent writer for the Parchment and Pen. Original post can be found here http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/10/when-we-get-to-heaven-we-will-be-timeless-and-other-stupid-statements/
This is just one of many I have found supporting the time bound existence on the new earth. So I am still not convinced we will be timeless on the New earth.
I would like to register a complaint. In truth, I would like to register many complaints about the common Christian view of the afterlife, but I start here. This complaint is important because it not only represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the afterlife (i.e. heaven), but of the very nature of God, for to have this view of the afterlife, one must either be some sort of modified pantheist or an atheist.
Let me make my proposition and then repeat the above charge:
The statement, “When we get to heaven, we will be timeless” represents a fundamental misunderstanding of Christian theology. To have this view of the afterlife, one must either be, as I said, either a modified pantheist or an atheist.
Much of Christian theology carries the assumption that in eternity (heaven), believers will be like God, timeless. This belief goes back quite some time in pop theology.
Notice the concept in the hymn “Almighty Father of Mankind” (emphases added in all)
Therefore in life I’ll trust in Thee,
In death I will adore;
And after death will sing Thy praise
When time shall be no more.
Or how about “The Christian’s Guide,”
When old earth shall cease to travel,
And when time shall be no more,
With our loved ones we will gather
Over on the other shore,
Where all sorrow will be over,
Where all tears are wiped away,
Where with angel voices blending
We shall sing in endless day.
Or take this stanza by James Thomson (1700-1748) in “A Poem Sacred to the Memory of Sir Isaac Newton,”
While in expectance of the second life,
When time shall be no more, they sacred dust
Sleeps with her kings, and dignifies the scene
Or how about the most well known “When the Roll is Called up Yonder,”
When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,
And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;
When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.
If that were not enough “evidence” for our expectation of future timeless existence, we also have biblical proof:
Revelation 10:6: “And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer” (emphasis mine).
But I don’t believe that there will ever be a time when Christians (or any of creation) will experience timelessness. I believe that we will always experience a succession of moments. There will always be a past, present, and future for the Christian.
I will deal with the passage in Revelation shortly, but let me first explain how it is theologically and philosophically impossible (not merely improbable) for any of creation to ever experience timelessness:
Timelessness is a characteristic of God alone. Paul tells Timothy that God “alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see.” (1Ti 6:16 ESV). While believers are promised eternal life, this does not imply the same kind of eternal life that God possesses. Though there is a sense in which we will see God with our eyes, there is also a very real sense that we will never see God in his essence. He exists in an “unapproachable light.” The phrase “whom no one has ever seen or can see” uses the word dunatai which speaks of our ability or capacity to accomplish that which is spoken about. Humanity, indeed, all of creation, does not have the ability or capacity to see God in his essence. Why? Because of his transcendent nature.
Transcendence is a quality that is God’s alone. Indeed, transcendence is a foundational qualification of being God. Transcendence, in this sense, is to be separate and above all things created. God is not the creation. He is not “in” the creation. Creation is not a part of him. To believe otherwise is pantheistic.
When God created all things, he created them ex nihilo “out of nothing.” In other words, creation was not made from some preexisting “stuff” that God used and molded into our universe. Neither is the universe created out of God’s essence itself. There was nothing before creation but God (Heb 11:3). Therefore, God created space, matter, and time. But God is not made up of space, matter, or time. God is the “First Cause” of all things. He is the “Necessary Being” that makes sense out of existence. In this way, because he is God, he is transcendent to space, matter, and time.
God is not a part of time. If he were, he would not be God. He would simply be the most powerful being that we know of in our universe, a sort of “Superman.” If we believed that God was a part of time, we would be, philosophically speaking, atheists. But the definition of God is not “The most powerful being in the universe” but the one who created all that there is and is transcendent and sovereign over it. God cannot be in time because it is a necessary characteristic of divinity to be timeless. God does not experience a succession of moments in his essence. This is not to say that God does not act in time and experience time in his activity or in the incarnation of Christ or the presence of the Holy Spirit. It simply means that the essence of the Triune Godhead is not in time, but transcendent to it.
We now must examine how far off it is for us to entertain the idea that people, part of God’s creation, will one day be timeless. To be timeless is, by definition, to be God. Timelessness is not all he is, but it is for him alone. If we maintain that at death or in the resurrection we become timeless, we are saying that we are going to be joined with the essence of God. This is pantheism. In other words, we are saying that one day we will be God! If we were to deny God timelessness, then he would not really be God, and we would be atheistic, philosophically speaking.
“What about the passage in Revelation? Doesn’t that say that we will be timeless. Sorry Michael, I am going with the Bible rather than the philosophy of man.”
The passage in Revelation does not in any way speak to the ceasing of time. The version I used above is an unfortunately obscure translation from the King James Version of the Bible. Due to its influence and obscurity here, this train of thought has made its way into much of Christian culture. The phrase, “that there should be time no longer,” translates the Greek, hoti chronos ouketi estai. Literally, it is “that time no longer is.” In the context, the seventh Angel has just revealed the seven voices of thunder (which John was instructed to seal up). The events that follow show the angel bringing this stage of the tribulation to completion. The idea behind “time is no longer” is that the duration has run its course. “Time is up,” the angel declares, “Its over.”
Take note of other translations here:
ESV Revelation 10:6 – and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,
NAB Revelation 10:6 – and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them, “There shall be no more delay.
NAS Revelation 10:6 – and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer,
NAU Revelation 10:6 – and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,
NET Revelation 10:6 – and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, “There will be no more delay!
NIV Revelation 10:6 – And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!
NJB Revelation 10:6 – and swore by him who lives for ever and ever, and made heaven and all that it contains, and earth and all it contains, and the sea and all it contains, ‘The time of waiting is over;
NLT Revelation 10:6 – He swore an oath in the name of the one who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and everything in them, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it. He said, “There will be no more delay.
TNIV Revelation 10:6 – And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!
The KJV is the only translation whose wording allows for the misunderstanding.
In short, we will not ever become timeless precisely because we will never become God. The dictum is true: once timeless, always timeless. Once time-bound, always time-bound. There is a sense, as Paul says, that you and I will never see God because we are not able to do so. We will not be able to peek through the curtains of time and see what no eye can see. God will forever remain holy and timeless, even though manifestations of him along with his activity will always be ever present with us in time and through the incarnate Christ.
In heaven (and hell) and forever more, you and I will experience time, space, and matter. The only way that time could ever be no more is if God destroyed all of creation, leaving only himself. But he has promised otherwise.
This is just one of many I have found supporting the time bound existence on the new earth. So I am still not convinced we will be timeless on the New earth.
I would like to register a complaint. In truth, I would like to register many complaints about the common Christian view of the afterlife, but I start here. This complaint is important because it not only represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the afterlife (i.e. heaven), but of the very nature of God, for to have this view of the afterlife, one must either be some sort of modified pantheist or an atheist.
Let me make my proposition and then repeat the above charge:
The statement, “When we get to heaven, we will be timeless” represents a fundamental misunderstanding of Christian theology. To have this view of the afterlife, one must either be, as I said, either a modified pantheist or an atheist.
Much of Christian theology carries the assumption that in eternity (heaven), believers will be like God, timeless. This belief goes back quite some time in pop theology.
Notice the concept in the hymn “Almighty Father of Mankind” (emphases added in all)
Therefore in life I’ll trust in Thee,
In death I will adore;
And after death will sing Thy praise
When time shall be no more.
Or how about “The Christian’s Guide,”
When old earth shall cease to travel,
And when time shall be no more,
With our loved ones we will gather
Over on the other shore,
Where all sorrow will be over,
Where all tears are wiped away,
Where with angel voices blending
We shall sing in endless day.
Or take this stanza by James Thomson (1700-1748) in “A Poem Sacred to the Memory of Sir Isaac Newton,”
While in expectance of the second life,
When time shall be no more, they sacred dust
Sleeps with her kings, and dignifies the scene
Or how about the most well known “When the Roll is Called up Yonder,”
When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound, and time shall be no more,
And the morning breaks, eternal, bright and fair;
When the saved of earth shall gather over on the other shore,
And the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there.
If that were not enough “evidence” for our expectation of future timeless existence, we also have biblical proof:
Revelation 10:6: “And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer” (emphasis mine).
But I don’t believe that there will ever be a time when Christians (or any of creation) will experience timelessness. I believe that we will always experience a succession of moments. There will always be a past, present, and future for the Christian.
I will deal with the passage in Revelation shortly, but let me first explain how it is theologically and philosophically impossible (not merely improbable) for any of creation to ever experience timelessness:
Timelessness is a characteristic of God alone. Paul tells Timothy that God “alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see.” (1Ti 6:16 ESV). While believers are promised eternal life, this does not imply the same kind of eternal life that God possesses. Though there is a sense in which we will see God with our eyes, there is also a very real sense that we will never see God in his essence. He exists in an “unapproachable light.” The phrase “whom no one has ever seen or can see” uses the word dunatai which speaks of our ability or capacity to accomplish that which is spoken about. Humanity, indeed, all of creation, does not have the ability or capacity to see God in his essence. Why? Because of his transcendent nature.
Transcendence is a quality that is God’s alone. Indeed, transcendence is a foundational qualification of being God. Transcendence, in this sense, is to be separate and above all things created. God is not the creation. He is not “in” the creation. Creation is not a part of him. To believe otherwise is pantheistic.
When God created all things, he created them ex nihilo “out of nothing.” In other words, creation was not made from some preexisting “stuff” that God used and molded into our universe. Neither is the universe created out of God’s essence itself. There was nothing before creation but God (Heb 11:3). Therefore, God created space, matter, and time. But God is not made up of space, matter, or time. God is the “First Cause” of all things. He is the “Necessary Being” that makes sense out of existence. In this way, because he is God, he is transcendent to space, matter, and time.
God is not a part of time. If he were, he would not be God. He would simply be the most powerful being that we know of in our universe, a sort of “Superman.” If we believed that God was a part of time, we would be, philosophically speaking, atheists. But the definition of God is not “The most powerful being in the universe” but the one who created all that there is and is transcendent and sovereign over it. God cannot be in time because it is a necessary characteristic of divinity to be timeless. God does not experience a succession of moments in his essence. This is not to say that God does not act in time and experience time in his activity or in the incarnation of Christ or the presence of the Holy Spirit. It simply means that the essence of the Triune Godhead is not in time, but transcendent to it.
We now must examine how far off it is for us to entertain the idea that people, part of God’s creation, will one day be timeless. To be timeless is, by definition, to be God. Timelessness is not all he is, but it is for him alone. If we maintain that at death or in the resurrection we become timeless, we are saying that we are going to be joined with the essence of God. This is pantheism. In other words, we are saying that one day we will be God! If we were to deny God timelessness, then he would not really be God, and we would be atheistic, philosophically speaking.
“What about the passage in Revelation? Doesn’t that say that we will be timeless. Sorry Michael, I am going with the Bible rather than the philosophy of man.”
The passage in Revelation does not in any way speak to the ceasing of time. The version I used above is an unfortunately obscure translation from the King James Version of the Bible. Due to its influence and obscurity here, this train of thought has made its way into much of Christian culture. The phrase, “that there should be time no longer,” translates the Greek, hoti chronos ouketi estai. Literally, it is “that time no longer is.” In the context, the seventh Angel has just revealed the seven voices of thunder (which John was instructed to seal up). The events that follow show the angel bringing this stage of the tribulation to completion. The idea behind “time is no longer” is that the duration has run its course. “Time is up,” the angel declares, “Its over.”
Take note of other translations here:
ESV Revelation 10:6 – and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,
NAB Revelation 10:6 – and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them, “There shall be no more delay.
NAS Revelation 10:6 – and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there shall be delay no longer,
NAU Revelation 10:6 – and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,
NET Revelation 10:6 – and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, and the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, “There will be no more delay!
NIV Revelation 10:6 – And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!
NJB Revelation 10:6 – and swore by him who lives for ever and ever, and made heaven and all that it contains, and earth and all it contains, and the sea and all it contains, ‘The time of waiting is over;
NLT Revelation 10:6 – He swore an oath in the name of the one who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and everything in them, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it. He said, “There will be no more delay.
TNIV Revelation 10:6 – And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!
The KJV is the only translation whose wording allows for the misunderstanding.
In short, we will not ever become timeless precisely because we will never become God. The dictum is true: once timeless, always timeless. Once time-bound, always time-bound. There is a sense, as Paul says, that you and I will never see God because we are not able to do so. We will not be able to peek through the curtains of time and see what no eye can see. God will forever remain holy and timeless, even though manifestations of him along with his activity will always be ever present with us in time and through the incarnate Christ.
In heaven (and hell) and forever more, you and I will experience time, space, and matter. The only way that time could ever be no more is if God destroyed all of creation, leaving only himself. But he has promised otherwise.
- Aug 10, 2012
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- Faith
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To be timeless doesn't necessarily mean you become like God with his level of transcendence, existing along with him from beginning to end. Humans certainly had a beginning and the only thing preventing their end is the gift of eternal life. Our beginning came when God spoke the word creating man.
Acts 17:26-28."26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"
So it is by God's word that we exist. It is also his word that marks the beginning and end of each age. Therefore you could say even if we and the angels were not bound by time, we would still be bound by God's word. With each decree affecting real change even to those with a timeless existence.
Exodus 33:20-23 "But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”"
Why do you suppose it is that no one can see God's face and live? Because they would be hastened to the white throne judgement. Revelation 20:11 With the coming of the new Heaven and Earth we will see God Face to face Revelation 22:4. This is an example of how God takes precedence over time even for us creatures who are bound by time.
Acts 17:26-28."26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"
So it is by God's word that we exist. It is also his word that marks the beginning and end of each age. Therefore you could say even if we and the angels were not bound by time, we would still be bound by God's word. With each decree affecting real change even to those with a timeless existence.
Exodus 33:20-23 "But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”"
Why do you suppose it is that no one can see God's face and live? Because they would be hastened to the white throne judgement. Revelation 20:11 With the coming of the new Heaven and Earth we will see God Face to face Revelation 22:4. This is an example of how God takes precedence over time even for us creatures who are bound by time.
It still blows my mind that some think we will have a timeless existence. I beg to differ, timelessness is a quality attributed only to God. Unless you can provide philosophical or biblical reasons why we should believe our new existence will be timeless i am not going to entertain the idea. Here is another great article summing up the two positions. http://www.faithtalk1360.com/11597583/
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