Jesus - God or not?

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0bed

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Feb 21, 2010
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jaybird said:
if Jesus was the Almighty then whats the point of praying to the Almighty? if they were one and the same why did the Son need the Father to strengthen His will. the will of the Father and will of the Son are obviously not one and the same.
God is Spirit, but being in the form of man he humbled himself. He was still God, but like the boss of a big company, who I used as an illustration, the boss humbled himself for a season and became like one of his workers. He was still the boss though.

Php 2:5-8 ASV
5 Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;
8 and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.
 

0bed

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Feb 21, 2010
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jaybird said:
i do believe what Jesus says.
do you believe what He says?
If you believe what Jesus says, then believe him when he says, in John 10:30-31 I and the Father are one.

The Jews took up stones again to stone him because they understood what Jesus was saying, i.e., that he was God.

You say you believe Jesus, so believe him in everything, even if it is a mystery to you.
 

0bed

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Feb 21, 2010
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jaybird said:
the Shema says one, not three in one. Jews never understood it this way and they still dont today.
There is One God who is Lord over all.

Eph 4:5-6 ONE Lord (kurios), one faith, one baptism, ONE God (theos) and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all.

God is over all as the Father, through all by the Logos or Word (Jesus), and in all by the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity.
 

0bed

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jaybird said:
i think your on to something brakelight.

here is a question, why do trins think the trinity is so important? Jesus doesnt have specific teachings on why its so important to believe or accept these three natures. He never mentions follow me but only follow if you believe this or that nature of the Father, its not part of the apostles creed. so how did it become such a giant of benchmarks for Christianity?
Jesus is important because without him there is no salvation. Remember, only God can save us from our sins, and that is what God on earth, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ did.
 

0bed

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Feb 21, 2010
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jaybird said:
if Jesus was the Almighty then whats the point of praying to the Almighty? if they were one and the same why did the Son need the Father to strengthen His will. the will of the Father and will of the Son are obviously not one and the same.
If we pray to the Almighty, we are praying to God who humbled himself and came to his own. His name on earth is Jesus. See Matthew.
 

jaybird

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Feb 29, 2016
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0bed said:
Jesus is important because without him there is no salvation. Remember, only God can save us from our sins, and that is what God on earth, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ did.
i dont follow. ur saying salvation is only given through the belief in the trinity?
 

jaybird

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Feb 29, 2016
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0bed said:
If we pray to the Almighty, we are praying to God who humbled himself and came to his own.
trinity teaches pray to the godhead, Father/Son/Holy Spirit. either or, its all the same.

Jesus taught to pray to the Father. He makes no mention of praying to anyone else
 

0bed

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jaybird said:
trinity teaches pray to the godhead, Father/Son/Holy Spirit. either or, its all the same.

Jesus taught to pray to the Father. He makes no mention of praying to anyone else
We are One person, body, soul and spirit. Likewise for God. You wouldn't say you are three persons would you, even though you are body, soul and spirit.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
0bed said:
If you believe what Jesus says, then believe him when he says, in John 10:30-31 I and the Father are one.

The Jews took up stones again to stone him because they understood what Jesus was saying, i.e., that he was God.

You say you believe Jesus, so believe him in everything, even if it is a mystery to you.
Obed, Read what Jesus said without giving it a grammatical or historic criticism. Just accept it as it reads...Jesus and the Father are one. He did not say He and His Father are the same. The Jews understood well, when they recognized that when Jesus declared Himself as the Son of God, He was claiming equality, and on account of that Sonship, deity. For a son always inherits the characteristics and the nature of his father...right? But it does not mean the son is the very same as the father. Else the father/son relationshipconcept/motif becomes non-sensical.
My father was human, thus being the son of my father, I also am human.
Jesus' Father is God, thus being the Son of God He also is God.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
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jaybird said:
Elijah did godly works, does that make him the Almighty?

IMO the word is the creating power of the Most High.

the Shema says one, not three in one. Jews never understood it this way and they still dont today.

interesting that the trinity has been the biggest subject of debate among Christians for close to two thousand years, yet of all those "experts" that tried to test Jesus, not one tested Him on this teaching, i wonder why?
after Christianity was adopted by rome there are many church fathers (about 300 years later) that give detailed teachings on the trinity and the natures of the All High, yet before rome, no Apostle, paul nor Jesus gave a detailed teaching on this, i wonder why?
God did the works not Isaiah. Here Jesus himself did the Miracles which proves he is God.
Do you not believe what Isaiah 6:9 says? Is Jesus not the Prince of Peace?
FYI most Messianic Jews believe in the trinity. The fact that Jews themselves who aren't saved don't believe in the Triune God is not problematic to me whatsoever. In order to believe in Jesus as the Messiah one has to believe that he is God and anyone who does not believe that Jesus is God is not a Christian.
A detailed teaching of the Trinity was only required after Arius started his false teaching. None of the apostles were around when that happened but there was much teaching that went against Arius and Arianism. The fact that there has always been and will always be false teaching in the church is not surprising because it was identified early on in the New Testament. I always wonder why people don't believe exactly what God's word says?
As far as Paul is concerned, you ought to read what he writes in Colossians 1:15-19, 2:9-10, to name just a few Scriptures that confirm Jesus' deity.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
jaybird said:
trinity teaches pray to the godhead, Father/Son/Holy Spirit. either or, its all the same.
Jesus taught to pray to the Father. He makes no mention of praying to anyone else
You continue to prove that you don't know what Jesus said in the Bible at all. Read John 14:13-14, which are just two of many examples.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
brakelite said:
I am not confused at all....
Yes you are and I've had this discussion with you many times and when push comes to shove you back away because you don't want to get kicked off the forum for being anti-trinitarian.
Suffice it to say you do not know how to read the Bible or understand what it says.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
jaybird said:
i dont follow. ur saying salvation is only given through the belief in the trinity?
Salvation is only given when one confesses the true Messiah Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God the word incarnate. John 1:1-3 & 14. Please take the time to read it and study it carefully.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
brakelite said:
Obed, Read what Jesus said without giving it a grammatical or historic criticism. Just accept it as it reads...Jesus and the Father are one. He did not say He and His Father are the same. The Jews understood well, when they recognized that when Jesus declared Himself as the Son of God, He was claiming equality, and on account of that Sonship, deity. For a son always inherits the characteristics and the nature of his father...right? But it does not mean the son is the very same as the father. Else the father/son relationshipconcept/motif becomes non-sensical.
My father was human, thus being the son of my father, I also am human.
Jesus' Father is God, thus being the Son of God He also is God.
If you actually did this we wouldn't be having these discussions with you. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus had the characteristics and nature of his father the Bible says that he is the exact representation of God. Heb 1:3
The only thing that is nonsensical is somebody trying to make God fit his own inferior human understanding rather than believe in faith as to what the Bible says about who God is.Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1

How many saviors are there brakelite?
 

0bed

New Member
Feb 21, 2010
127
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brakelite said:
Obed, Read what Jesus said without giving it a grammatical or historic criticism. Just accept it as it reads...Jesus and the Father are one. He did not say He and His Father are the same. The Jews understood well, when they recognized that when Jesus declared Himself as the Son of God, He was claiming equality, and on account of that Sonship, deity. For a son always inherits the characteristics and the nature of his father...right? But it does not mean the son is the very same as the father. Else the father/son relationshipconcept/motif becomes non-sensical.
My father was human, thus being the son of my father, I also am human.
Jesus' Father is God, thus being the Son of God He also is God.
This is what I said, cut and pasted, where did I say they were the same? What we have here are two persons of the Trinity, Father and Son, just like you said, who are God, as you, and the Jews, confirmed.

If you believe what Jesus says, then believe him when he says, in John 10:30-31 I and the Father are one.

The Jews took up stones again to stone him because they understood what Jesus was saying, i.e., that he was God.

You say you believe Jesus, so believe him in everything, even if it is a mystery to you.
 

jaybird

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
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0bed said:
Isaiah says the government shall be upon his shoulder. Wait till he returns.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isa 9:6)
so why use the passage if it is unfulfilled?
 

jaybird

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Feb 29, 2016
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StanJ said:
You continue to prove that you don't know what Jesus said in the Bible at all. Read John 14:13-14, which are just two of many examples.
i read the scriptures and let them speak for themselves. i dont go in with a preset doctrine belief that i bend the scriptures to support.

Jesus says we can ask the Father in the name of the Son. the prayer goes to the Father. Jesus never teaches ask the Son or Father because its all the same, there is a difference which is why He taught "in My name".
 

0bed

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Feb 21, 2010
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jaybird said:
so why use the passage if it is unfulfilled?
Jesus is Mighty God now. Not as far as earthly kingdoms and earthly rulers go, but as God over all. See John 1:1 Romans 9:5 1 John 5:20 John 20:28 1 Timothy 3:16 Heb 1:8.