Is our Bible of 66 Books, the inerrant Word of God?

mjrhealth said:

No the one who is right is God , Jesus and the Holy Spirit for they are all in agreement, and we are only right when we agree with them.

Because he did. Do you think someone needs to read the bible to know God?? Lots of people know the bible very few know God. Did you not know that God is the God of the living and that Jesus is the"living" word. So why dot you ask them, they do have a lot to say its just that few ask, i suppose its " you have not because you ask not". Dont need the bible I have Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit who are all true. why cant you comprehend that.
\Cant give you the answer you want will make me a liar. I gave you my answer.

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How do you know you agree with them? What did they say? Better yet, how do others know you agree with them?

So, you don't need the Bible because you have Jesus. Where did you learn about Jesus? Where did you learn about the Holy Spirit? How do you know God sent the Holy Spirit?

No, you didn't answer the question. You avoided the question. Does that make you a liar? Your words, not mine.

Stranger

Stranger said:

Identify the 'said' Greek manuscripts or fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls that are a Greek translation of the Old Testament.

Who said the LXXII is a collection of Greek scrolls? The story was that there were 72 Jews who translated the Old Tesatment into Greek. So, why is it a collection of Scrolls. It should be one item.

You bet, I don't mind splitting hairs. Who said any thing found written in Greek, if it was, is part of the Septuagint?

Stranger

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Actually, I believe the 72 Jews are rumored as translating only the first five books and the rest were added later. I have no idea if the story is true but that is irrelevant. Knowing the Ptolemaic kings and there love of knowledge, it is quite plausible. The Royal Library there was burned and so would have been the original manuscripts if they had not rotted yet.

It was never rumored to be just one scroll; or for that matter a codex. The later were developed later by the Romans. I have no idea when the continuous scroll was developed but I have heard nothing saying that even the first five books of the LXX bible were written on one.

How do you know you agree with them? What did they say? Better yet, how do others know you agree with them?

So, you don't need the Bible because you have Jesus. Where did you learn about Jesus? Where did you learn about the Holy Spirit? How do you know God sent the Holy Spirit?

No, you didn't answer the question. You avoided the question. Does that make you a liar? Your words, not mine.

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I did tel lyou, but it isnt the answer you want to hear, is it?? Who was it that createdf the heavens and the earth, who was it that created man and gave him the breath of life, who is it that seperated the land from the sea, causes the winds to blow, the rain to fall, who was it who set the stars in heaven so that man could look up and see teh glory of God, who was it that gave you a spirit so that you could live?? Is it not God thata did all these things, and if so do tou not think it possible that He can speak to His children. ??

My Sheep Hear my voice", christians need to listen???

kerwin said:

Actually, I believe the 72 Jews are rumored as translating only the first five books and the rest were added later. I have no idea if the story is true but that is irrelevant. Knowing the Ptolemaic kings and there love of knowledge, it is quite plausible. The Royal Library there was burned and so would have been the original manuscripts if they had not rotted yet.

It was never rumored to be just one scroll; or for that matter a codex. The later were developed later by the Romans. I have no idea when the continuous scroll was developed but I have heard nothing saying that even the first five books of the LXX bible were written on one.

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The story of the Septuagint comes from the 'letter of Aristas'. It's been shown to be a fraud. It is relevant because there is nothing else to prove that there is or ever was a so called Septuagint.

You said there were Greek manuscripts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. What are they?

Stranger

mjrhealth said:

I did tel lyou, but it isnt the answer you want to hear, is it?? Who was it that createdf the heavens and the earth, who was it that created man and gave him the breath of life, who is it that seperated the land from the sea, causes the winds to blow, the rain to fall, who was it who set the stars in heaven so that man could look up and see teh glory of God, who was it that gave you a spirit so that you could live?? Is it not God thata did all these things, and if so do tou not think it possible that He can speak to His children. ??

My Sheep Hear my voice", christians need to listen???

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How do you know "My sheep hear my voice"?

Stranger

How do you know "My sheep hear my voice"?

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Because I know Him and he knows me, dont you know Him,??

Im talking to you at your leve, yes i have read the bible, if I hadnt how would I be able to quote it, what you may not be able to understnad is how could i know these things without the bible, i suppose it becuase of God, none of my doing. Whe nwe are small we go to primary school and learn to read an write, when we get older we go to high school to learn teh difficult things, its no diffrrent with God, He teaches you at your level, but untill you get one thing you will never go further, like a jigsaw puzzle, you need one piece before the next piece, and if you put the bible before God, you will never go anywhere. just look at all these forums. How do I know Im right, Im nit right, God is right, im only right when I agree with him.

StanJ said:

I'm afraid you're a tad confused. The codexes are about the New Testament, which you can find out about in the following link; http://www.csntm.org
The Septuagint or LXX is the oldest extant manuscript that we have of the Old Testament and is complete.
http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/lxx_account.html

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I believe the Alexandrian manuscripts do contain the Old Testament in Greek. But, they are still 4th and 5th century. Do you agree?

Stranger

mjrhealth said:

Because I know Him and he knows me, dont you know Him,??

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Well, if you don't need the Bible to know what to believe, quit quoting from it. Or, did those Words, "My sheep hear my voice" come to you in a dream? A vision perhaps? A feeling that just mysteriously came over you?

Stranger

StanJ said:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_200.cfm

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj20e.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjxiqvW9JzQAhVOxWMKHd-2BAEQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNGgB4-nQZtEToTw7A8_Ekyfp40L3A&sig2=z_8Jp5POSzyUj9-gtB_M0g

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Stan, you don’t even realize that both the articles you’ve linked, even the wildly unscientific one from the Blueletter-Bible, basically support what I said, do you? But never mind, if - against all scholarly opinion - you want to believe that Jesus actually held the Sermon on the Mount in Greek, pray do.

I'm afraid you're a tad confused. The codexes are about the New Testament, which you can find out about in the following link; http://www.csntm.org
The Septuagint or LXX is the oldest extant manuscript that we have of the Old Testament and is complete.
http://ecmarsh.com/l...xx_account.html

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Sigh, it seems it is you who is a tad confused (and I can’t say I blame you, because the transmission and reconstruction of Biblical texts is indeed complicated): the Codices I mentioned (Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus) contain both the Old and New Testament in Greek with their Old Testament texts being versions of the Septuagint. It is not me who doubts the existence of the Septuagint, but Stranger.

Stranger said:

What made the fragment a supposed piece of the 'Septuagint'?

How do you know these oldest codices contain the Septuagint? And these manuscripts are only 4th and 5th century. Is there something or someone who says this is the Septuagint? The Septuagint, as the story goes, must exist before Christ. Else He can't quote from it. Yet the story of the Septuagint is proven to be a fraud. Don't you agree?

A side note....It is easier then some think to cut off a limb that your standing on. Literally. I have done it with a chain saw before, so, I won't be surprised if I do it on theological grounds also.

I am not uncurious. I am very curious about how we got our Bible.

Stranger

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It seems to me that you are not even curious enough to read the links that I provided. And that you say things like “So, why is it a collection of Scrolls. It should be one item.” shows that you never really occupied yourself with ancient Biblical manuscripts.
As far as I’m concerned the story of the 72 scribes may be as much of a legend as that the Gospel of John for example was written by the Apostle John (nowhere in the actual text does it explicitly say that it was, and we do indeed have reasons to assume that there’s not a single author but an entire Johannine School that we have to thank for the Gospel of John in its final form).
Of course the Septuagint existed before the New Testament was written. As I said: its oldest surviving textual witness goes back to the 2th century BC:

How do we know that the Papyrus Rylands 458 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_Rylands_458) is part of the Septuagint (a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible that got completed over hundreds of years)? For the similar reasons that we know that Papyrus 52 is a part of the Gospel of John. These old fragments are bit like a jigsaw-puzzle, so guess what this is from:
“mest into th bour's vin
ou mayest eat grapes thy hine”
Yes, you got that right: it’s a fragment of Deuteronomy 23:24 from the KJV.
While the Gospels authors who tell us about Jesus quoting the Old Testament quoted from the Greek Septuagint, Jesus Himself may have used Aramaic/Hebrew versions of the texts He quoted. Alas, as far as I am aware of, there are no surviving witnesses of such versions, other than the bits we find in the Ketef Hinnom Silver Scrolls (700-650 BC), maybe the Gemara (c. 200 BC) and some of the recently discovered Dead Sea Scrolls (150 BC-75 AD). The Masoretic Text, that most Protestant Old Testament translations are based on, is from about 700-1000 AD with the oldest extant manuscript we still have being from about 900 AD. But no worries: while the Masoretic Texts differ slightly from equivalent texts in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Dead Sea Scrolls have shown that all in all the versions of the Tanach, while fluid in detail, have remained surprisingly consistent over the centuries.
Seriously, I don’t know why you feel the need to deny the existence of the Septuagint Greek Translation(s) of the Hebrew Bible. What’s your point? And why do I even bother trying to explain this stuff to you, when I’m almost certain that you’ll just continue to blindly believe that the KJV (or whichever version of the Bible you may use) just somehow fell from heaven like Mannah?

junobet

I have no problem saying Papyrus 52 is part of the Gospel of John. And, I have no problem saying Papyrus 458 is part of Deuteronomy. I have a problem in saying Papyrus 458 comes from the Septuagint. Just because it is written in Greek, doesn't prove any existence of a so called 'Septuagint'. And this is the only piece of Greek Old Testament found dating before the time of Christ.

So, if this is the only piece found before the time of Christ, from where do all these supposed quotes of Christ and the apostles come from when it is claimed they quote from the Septuagint?

Where is this so called Septuagint?

The Gospel writers don't tell us Christ quoted from the Septuagint. You are simply assuming a quote by Christ from the Old Testament comes from the Septuagint. Why does it have to be from a Septuagint? Why wouldn't it be just a quote from the Old Testament?

I appreciate your explanations. And I do use the KJV, but I don't believe 'blindly so'.

Stranger

Stranger said:

Because the one who is right will be in harmony with and accurate with Scripture. True to Scripture.

Ask again.

Stranger[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

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Here is how our discussion has gone over the last couple weeks. I have cut and pasted your statements from previous post.

[SIZE=10pt]ME: Who out of the five is correct about baptism in their translation of Scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: The one who is in harmony with scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know they are in harmony with scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: Because they are staying true to scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know they are staying true to scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]The one who is right is the one who is true to the Scripture. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know who is right?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Every believer has the Holy Spirit that leads him to the truth. Every believer has the Holy Spirit and is therefore able to interpret the Word of God which is inspired by the Spirit of God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: If every believer has the Holy Spirit and they all interpret the same passage different how do we know who is right and who is wrong?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: If the believer says something contrary to Scripture, then the believer is mistaken. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]It behooves other believers to show them where they are in error...according to the Scriptures[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do we know if they are saying something contrary to scripture? Wouldn’t another human (other believers as you put it) have to tell them they are contrary to scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: Nothing wrong with human teachers giving direction. But they are not the final authority. The Bible is, which you use to check these human teachers. Scripture does interpret Scripture. That is why you study the Scriptures.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: But you said “other believers” have to show them when they are in error. If other believers show them where they are in error does that not make humans the final authority? You have said Scripture interprets Scripture and "other believers" interpret scripture to correct those that are wrong and Every believer has the Holy Spirit and is therefore able to interpret the Word of God . You are saying THREE different things. My simple question is: When I, a believer, study scripture and I interpret scripture different than you (who is also a believer) how do we know who has the correct interpretation?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]The one who is in harmony with scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Since you are talking in circles there is no place to go in this conversation. I wish you well in your theory.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]Respectfully......Tom[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

tom55 said:

Here is how our discussion has gone over the last couple weeks. I have cut and pasted your statements from previous post.

[SIZE=10pt]ME: Who out of the five is correct about baptism in their translation of Scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: The one who is in harmony with scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know they are in harmony with scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: Because they are staying true to scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know they are staying true to scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]The one who is right is the one who is true to the Scripture. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know who is right?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Every believer has the Holy Spirit that leads him to the truth. Every believer has the Holy Spirit and is therefore able to interpret the Word of God which is inspired by the Spirit of God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: If every believer has the Holy Spirit and they all interpret the same passage different how do we know who is right and who is wrong?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: If the believer says something contrary to Scripture, then the believer is mistaken. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]It behooves other believers to show them where they are in error...according to the Scriptures[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do we know if they are saying something contrary to scripture? Wouldn’t another human (other believers as you put it) have to tell them they are contrary to scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: Nothing wrong with human teachers giving direction. But they are not the final authority. The Bible is, which you use to check these human teachers. Scripture does interpret Scripture. That is why you study the Scriptures.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: But you said “other believers” have to show them when they are in error. If other believers show them where they are in error does that not make humans the final authority? You have said Scripture interprets Scripture and "other believers" interpret scripture to correct those that are wrong and Every believer has the Holy Spirit and is therefore able to interpret the Word of God . You are saying THREE different things. My simple question is: When I, a believer, study scripture and I interpret scripture different than you (who is also a believer) how do we know who has the correct interpretation?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]The one who is in harmony with scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Since you are talking in circles there is no place to go in this conversation. I wish you well in your theory.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]Respectfully......Tom[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

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Yea, I agree with you there, Tom. That was very much in circles.

tom55 said:

Here is how our discussion has gone over the last couple weeks. I have cut and pasted your statements from previous post.

[SIZE=10pt]ME: Who out of the five is correct about baptism in their translation of Scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: The one who is in harmony with scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know they are in harmony with scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: Because they are staying true to scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know they are staying true to scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]The one who is right is the one who is true to the Scripture. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do you know who is right?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Every believer has the Holy Spirit that leads him to the truth. Every believer has the Holy Spirit and is therefore able to interpret the Word of God which is inspired by the Spirit of God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: If every believer has the Holy Spirit and they all interpret the same passage different how do we know who is right and who is wrong?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: If the believer says something contrary to Scripture, then the believer is mistaken. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]It behooves other believers to show them where they are in error...according to the Scriptures[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: How do we know if they are saying something contrary to scripture? Wouldn’t another human (other believers as you put it) have to tell them they are contrary to scripture?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: Nothing wrong with human teachers giving direction. But they are not the final authority. The Bible is, which you use to check these human teachers. Scripture does interpret Scripture. That is why you study the Scriptures.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]ME: But you said “other believers” have to show them when they are in error. If other believers show them where they are in error does that not make humans the final authority? You have said Scripture interprets Scripture and "other believers" interpret scripture to correct those that are wrong and Every believer has the Holy Spirit and is therefore able to interpret the Word of God . You are saying THREE different things. My simple question is: When I, a believer, study scripture and I interpret scripture different than you (who is also a believer) how do we know who has the correct interpretation?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]YOU: [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]The one who is in harmony with scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Since you are talking in circles there is no place to go in this conversation. I wish you well in your theory.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]Respectfully......Tom[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

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All I have said is that the Scriptures are the final authority as they are the Word of God. And, it is not my theory. And it's not a circle. If what I believe Scriptures are saying are in harmony with the Scripture then I would be correct. If not, then I would be incorrect. The point being, study the Scriptures.

Stranger

Well, if you don't need the Bible to know what to believe, quit quoting from it. Or, did those Words, "My sheep hear my voice" come to you in a dream? A vision perhaps? A feeling that just mysteriously came over you?

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Well what is one to do when christians dont believe God they only believe the bible??? For you its all about what you read, for me its all about what He has done, for you God is a story in a book, for me He is an adventure and my Life, you read the bible trying to figure God out when the bible continually points you to Christ who is our life, there is no life in the bible, only in Jesus. So which of all the bibles is the word of God? they are all different and all based on different text and different interpretations of that Text, there is only 1 truth and many different bibles. Don t you see the lie???? or is it christians worship many Gods ?? based on teh bible they read??

mjrhealth said:

Well what is one to do when christians dont believe God they only believe the bible??? For you its all about what you read, for me its all about what He has done, for you God is a story in a book, for me He is an adventure and my Life, you read the bible trying to figure God out when the bible continually points you to Christ who is our life, there is no life in the bible, only in Jesus. So which of all the bibles is the word of God? they are all different and all based on different text and different interpretations of that Text, there is only 1 truth and many different bibles. Don t you see the lie???? or is it christians worship many Gods ?? based on teh bible they read??

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OK. What is the 'one truth'?

Stranger

OK. What is the 'one truth'?

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Jesus, i thought you would know that ??

mjrhealth said:

Jesus, i thought you would know that ??

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Why would you think I would know that? You stated in reply 156 that for me its all about what I read, meaning I can't know as you do. So, how am I supposed to know when I am not as enlightened as you are? So, tell me...What is the 'one truth'. I'm dying to hear it.

Stranger

Stranger said:

The story of the Septuagint comes from the 'letter of Aristas'. It's been shown to be a fraud. It is relevant because there is nothing else to prove that there is or ever was a so called Septuagint.

You said there were Greek manuscripts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. What are they?

Stranger

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Fraud or not, I treat it as rumor. It is irrelevant because it is merely a back story to explain the existense of the Koine Greek manuscripts existense and it is used as a lable for all of them. In short there is a version of Koine Greek Scripture we call the LXX. It exists and that is its name because we call it that,

The experts consider the Letter of Aristeas as Jewish propaganda and it has not been proven a fraud though there has been some controversy about that among experts. The controversy is who wrote it and was when it claims and by the author it claims to be or by an author that used that name and penned it fifty years later. Both dates are BC (BCE). That means that whether truth of fiction it was established information by the First Century.