abolishing Hell? ("all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire...")

It is because you get people like this saying things like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

I studied for a long time with the JWs and even went out talking to people at their doors, there are a lot of scriptures we used to use to debunk hell if ever it came up, what you have to remember is that the person that knocks ion your door is very sincere with what they believe, because this is what they have been taught. And like me it is taking a lot of time to re think my beliefs as a result of their indoctrination. If you ask me right now i am still not to sure if it is what the Church says it is or not..

There are three different concepts labeled Hell in the AV of the KJV.

• Lake of fire, Hebrew Gehenna
• Land of the dead- Hebrew Sheol - Greek Hades
• Land where the fallen are imprisoned - Greek Tartarus - Possibly the Hebrew Abaddon.

All three concepts have a documented history of thousand of years and their Koine Greek and Hebrew names are used in both Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Jesus actually uses a description of Sheol/Hades in the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus. He also mentions being in Paradise with the thief the same day as his death and one side of Sheol is a paradise, which is also know as being at Abraham's bosom.

Of course many confuse suspension of disbelief with faith so they will blind themselves to any such evidence thinking they are following God to do so.

Mozzle you have done a good job to progress as much as you have and I urge you to press onward for the reward is great.

ScaliaFan said:

Jesus said that those who do not treat others who follow Him as brethren and care for their needs, will end up in Hell.. and in that psg (Mt 25:31) he used the adjective ETERNAL b4 the word Hell

yeh, i dont think Jesus has abolished Hell yet

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I agree with you that Jesus wants us to love and care for the least of us and even our enemies. I have no doubt that He Himself loves His enemies, too. Remember what He said on the cross: "Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" (Luke 23:24)

ScaliaFan said:

i just answered your post but i re-read it and now not sure i got your drift?

Are you saying that even if we don't do for others, Jesus loves us which = we get to Heaven? Just checking b/c some believe this and it is SO not true... Love does not mean overlooking evil (as some believe Jesus does.. but only with THEIR sins, of course)... Overlooking evil means promoting it and propagating it... That is the opposite of real love

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Well, as a Lutheran I fully subscribe to the “Joint Declaration On The Doctrine Of Justification” by the Lutheran World Federation and the Roman Catholic Church, according to which we are not justified because of our works but only because of God’s grace: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
And when I look to Christ I’m assured that His grace is endless.
As I’ve told you before I agree with Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar that the possibility hell is only to be considered for oneself, never for others. So whenever I bask in the vengeful thought of other people burning of hell (and alas, I'm guilty of having done that on occasion), I know that I urgently need to repent.

Hell is terrifying. It truly is, and it should push us to try and speak the gospel wherever we can. On a daily basis I'm aware that it's only by Jesus' grace and mercy that I'm not headed there. I can feel my broken old nature fighting against the new, and truly, I know that grace is my only salvation.
But as much as the thought of the lost suffering there for an eternity makes me feel unwell, there are times when I'm overwhelmed by it's righteousness. Let me explain: A little while ago, I came across an article here in Australia, talking about late term abortion. The article stated that there had been a sharp rise in the number of late term abortions where the child had still been alive...it was left there alone until it died. Just left, discarded, suffering, trying to breath, cold and alone. Dear merciful God! As a nation we deserve to be judged! We have not stopped this atrocity, this murder. It breaks my heart and punches me in the gut. Judgment is deserved. How can we say anything else in this case? But the majority say it is right, that the moral choice is to give women their rights. I can't understand it.

And this is just one of the horrible things you see. ISIS and terrorism is everywhere. They kidnap, rape, torture and kill. Man, woman, child. It makes no difference. Then there are the almost daily reports of some poor child being horribly abused by their parents. Just today there was a news report of some poor, dear child who had been drugged, raped, murdered and dismembered, all on her birthday.

And so, while I struggle with how terrifying hell is...I struggle more with the idea that ultimate judgment would never come if not for God and his perfect judgment. If hell is what God says is just...then hell it is.

Naomi25 said:

Hell is terrifying. It truly is, and it should push us to try and speak the gospel wherever we can. On a daily basis I'm aware that it's only by Jesus' grace and mercy that I'm not headed there. I can feel my broken old nature fighting against the new, and truly, I know that grace is my only salvation.
But as much as the thought of the lost suffering there for an eternity makes me feel unwell, there are times when I'm overwhelmed by it's righteousness. Let me explain: A little while ago, I came across an article here in Australia, talking about late term abortion. The article stated that there had been a sharp rise in the number of late term abortions where the child had still been alive...it was left there alone until it died. Just left, discarded, suffering, trying to breath, cold and alone. Dear merciful God! As a nation we deserve to be judged! We have not stopped this atrocity, this murder. It breaks my heart and punches me in the gut. Judgment is deserved. How can we say anything else in this case? But the majority say it is right, that the moral choice is to give women their rights. I can't understand it.

And this is just one of the horrible things you see. ISIS and terrorism is everywhere. They kidnap, rape, torture and kill. Man, woman, child. It makes no difference. Then there are the almost daily reports of some poor child being horribly abused by their parents. Just today there was a news report of some poor, dear child who had been drugged, raped, murdered and dismembered, all on her birthday.

And so, while I struggle with how terrifying hell is...I struggle more with the idea that ultimate judgment would never come if not for God and his perfect judgment. If hell is what God says is just...then hell it is.

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[SIZE=medium]I’m afraid we all too easily confuse our human desire for vengeance with divine justice. IMHO in Jesus Christ, who did not come to condemn the world, but to save the world (John 3:17) and who showed us the healing power of forgiveness, God has indeed revealed that His thoughts are not our thoughts and our ways aren’t His ways (Isaiah 55:8): [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“(…)[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Transforming grace is God’s punishment for sinners. (…)” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]https://jasongoroncy.com/2006/03/06/the-logic-of-hell-by-jurgen-moltmann/[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]To abstain from threatening others with hell-fire, does not mean we condone sin. It means we trust to overcome sin by being perfected by the love of God: “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” (1 John 4:18)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]If people obey God just because they fear punishment, they might as well not obey God at all. This is not the kind of obedience God wants.[/SIZE]

ScaliaFan said:

I hv done research on Hell and i don't want my worst enemy to go there...

And I am sure that joint agreement thing does not say that God's grace overcomes unrepentented, unexpiated sin... Catholics teach that the effects of sin have to be removed from the soul b4 entering Heaven... Revelation says that no unclean thing (attachment to sin...) will enter Heaven... If it were allowed to, it wouldn't be Heaven anymore

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The weapons of our warfare are not carnal. Neither is our worst enemy. I want my worst enemy throne into hell, but better yet... He won't be. Reve 20 says he's got a one way ticket to the lake of fire!


All men? I'd rather they come to the Truth! But if not.... They.... Well, you know.

ScaliaFan said:

you are being led by your merely human emotions and thoughts

There IS a Hell. Either you believe that or you are saying the Bible is a lie. You can't have it both ways

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[SIZE=medium]It seems you and I just have a very different focus when reading the Bible, mine being utterly Christocentric:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]While we are capable of hate all on our own, our ability to love solely stems from our connection with Jesus Christ (John 15:4-5). Of course it is depressing to see all the hate that is still in this world, even among Christians. But I trust that Christ will manage to accomplish what the Bible tells me He came for: to save the World, all of it (John 3:17). If “God our Savior, (…) wants all people to be saved and to come to know the truth fully” (1 Tim. 2:4b), who could hinder Him?[/SIZE]

ScaliaFan said:

I hv done research on Hell and i don't want my worst enemy to go there...

And I am sure that joint agreement thing does not say that God's grace overcomes unrepentented, unexpiated sin... Catholics teach that the effects of sin have to be removed from the soul b4 entering Heaven... Revelation says that no unclean thing (attachment to sin...) will enter Heaven... If it were allowed to, it wouldn't be Heaven anymore

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Of course everybody will be purified before entering heaven. The Blood of Christ has seen to that.

I'm a little bit surprised that as a Roman Catholic you aren't interested to read your Church's official declarations for yourself.

It feels a bit odd to me to tell a Roman Catholic about the Roman Catholic Church’s stances on things.
Though long forgotten, faith in the restoration of all things has been very much restored in Vatican II. There’s not much room left for hell in your Church.
Here's from "Gaudium et Spes":


"45. While helping the world and receiving many benefits from it, the Church has a single intention: that God's kingdom may come, and that the salvation of the whole human race may come to pass. For every benefit which the People of God during its earthly pilgrimage can offer to the human family stems from the fact that the Church is "the universal sacrament of salvation",(24) simultaneously manifesting and exercising the mystery of God's love.
For God's Word, by whom all things were made, was Himself made flesh so that as perfect man He might save all men and sum up all things in Himself. The Lord is the goal of human history, the focal point of the longings of history and of civilization, the center of the human race, the joy of every heart and the answer to all its yearnings.(25) He it is Whom the Father raised from the dead, lifted on high and stationed at His right hand, making Him judge of the living and the dead. Enlivened and united in His Spirit, we journey toward the consummation of human history, one which fully accords with the counsel of God's love: "To reestablish all things in Christ, both those in the heavens and those on the earth" (Eph. 11:10)."


http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
​

junobet said:

[SIZE=medium]I’m afraid we all too easily confuse our human desire for vengeance with divine justice. IMHO in Jesus Christ, who did not come to condemn the world, but to save the world (John 3:17) and who showed us the healing power of forgiveness, God has indeed revealed that His thoughts are not our thoughts and our ways aren’t His ways (Isaiah 55:8): [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“(…)[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Transforming grace is God’s punishment for sinners. (…)” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]https://jasongoroncy.com/2006/03/06/the-logic-of-hell-by-jurgen-moltmann/[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]To abstain from threatening others with hell-fire, does not mean we condone sin. It means we trust to overcome sin by being perfected by the love of God: “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.” (1 John 4:18)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]If people obey God just because they fear punishment, they might as well not obey God at all. This is not the kind of obedience God wants.[/SIZE]

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I think you're missing my point. I see you saying that you believe I'm saying "all those nasty sinners deserve hell". Theologically true, but not biblically imperative. The gospel means that even "the worst of us" (in Paul's language) can find forgiveness and grace. And I pray that everyone finds it! But that is not the case:

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14)

In regards to hell and to the punishment of sin against a holy God...there are plenty of passages in scripture to prove it's not a made up doctrine of cranky conservative types who are so legalistic they wouldn't know grace if it bit them on the nose! Jesus himself talks more of hell and judgement than anyone else in the bible. Jesus, who is the most loving, accepting, patient person the world has experienced. So if he warns us again and again, then there can be no doubt of it's truth, and the need to make people aware.

I'm not talking of fire and brimstone preaching to 'scare people into heaven'. If they 'follow' Jesus just because their terrified of hell, then they really aren't embracing the gospel...the good news! That brings love, acceptance, joy and peace. But again, if Jesus felt it pertinent to warn of judgement, should we follow his lead and warn people?

As far as mankind and sin goes...my original point. For those who have no regard for God, no regard for life...no regard for the things God cares about. If they go on in outright, open rebellion that can only make Satan rub his hands together with glee...these people have made their choice. And at times their wickedness is so horrifying and heartbreaking, that it really brings home to me that God is just and right pronouncing judgement on them.

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:46 ESV)

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42 ESV)


And I feel that I must stress: this is not a "how dare they" rage that comes from within...not me pinning petty human vengeance on God. I have no hate for these individual people...goodness knows, without the grace which with God reached out and saved me, I would very likely be in their place, desperately needing the gospel. But if you can honestly sit back and watch the millions of babies be slaughtered or all the atrocities of ISIS pass you by without knowing how....wrong...that behaviour is before God...then I think you need to go back and read your bible. God is withholding his wrath for now, waiting for all who will be his to come to repentance, but one day, his fury over all this will explode and be poured out. Read Revelation, for goodness sakes. "The winepress of his wrath"? That is God's own imagery, and it is fairly clear. It's horrifying....but it's God's own word...and when it comes time for it, we will be able to do nothing but praise him for his justness and goodness. The bible says so, and so I must believe it.

Naomi25 said:

I think you're missing my point. I see you saying that you believe I'm saying "all those nasty sinners deserve hell". Theologically true, but not biblically imperative. The gospel means that even "the worst of us" (in Paul's language) can find forgiveness and grace. And I pray that everyone finds it! But that is not the case:

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. (Matthew 7:13-14)

In regards to hell and to the punishment of sin against a holy God...there are plenty of passages in scripture to prove it's not a made up doctrine of cranky conservative types who are so legalistic they wouldn't know grace if it bit them on the nose! Jesus himself talks more of hell and judgement than anyone else in the bible. Jesus, who is the most loving, accepting, patient person the world has experienced. So if he warns us again and again, then there can be no doubt of it's truth, and the need to make people aware.

I'm not talking of fire and brimstone preaching to 'scare people into heaven'. If they 'follow' Jesus just because their terrified of hell, then they really aren't embracing the gospel...the good news! That brings love, acceptance, joy and peace. But again, if Jesus felt it pertinent to warn of judgement, should we follow his lead and warn people?

As far as mankind and sin goes...my original point. For those who have no regard for God, no regard for life...no regard for the things God cares about. If they go on in outright, open rebellion that can only make Satan rub his hands together with glee...these people have made their choice. And at times their wickedness is so horrifying and heartbreaking, that it really brings home to me that God is just and right pronouncing judgement on them.

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:46 ESV)

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42 ESV)


And I feel that I must stress: this is not a "how dare they" rage that comes from within...not me pinning petty human vengeance on God. I have no hate for these individual people...goodness knows, without the grace which with God reached out and saved me, I would very likely be in their place, desperately needing the gospel. But if you can honestly sit back and watch the millions of babies be slaughtered or all the atrocities of ISIS pass you by without knowing how....wrong...that behaviour is before God...then I think you need to go back and read your bible. God is withholding his wrath for now, waiting for all who will be his to come to repentance, but one day, his fury over all this will explode and be poured out. Read Revelation, for goodness sakes. "The winepress of his wrath"? That is God's own imagery, and it is fairly clear. It's horrifying....but it's God's own word...and when it comes time for it, we will be able to do nothing but praise him for his justness and goodness. The bible says so, and so I must believe it.

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[SIZE=medium]I find your standpoint slightly confusing. You find it “Good News” that – according to your reading of the Bible– the vast majority of humankind is hell-bound? In spite of their atrocities you don’t want ISIS-fighters to burn in hell, but you think God is not at least as compassionate, forgiving and capable to love His enemies as you are?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Well, as I already indicated: the average German Protestant (or Catholic) reads the Bible very differently. It sounds incredibly sad to me that you wish that everybody finds forgiveness and grace and yet still believe that most people won’t. So I can but pray for your hope and trust in the Almighty God to grow, “[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]who wants all people to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4)[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. Remember: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26). Our God is not a cruel God, but a God whose very nature is love.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]As for the verses you cited to support your belief in eternal hell:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] I find it somehow weird how many Christians only quote Matthew 25:46 (in a rather loose translation) to go on about eternal condemnation for others, without paying any attention to the actual point this passage is trying to make: Late on a cold winter’s night an atheist friend of mine offered his spare bed-room to a homeless man whilst I still was googling for a shelter that may still take people in at that hour. It’s rather clear that my atheist friend was more of a sheep and I was more of a goat on that occasion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So I don’t know about you, but I myself certainly am not saintly enough to make it through the narrow gate, however hard I try. Like most of us I will have to put my hopes in verses such as Romans 11:32: [/SIZE][SIZE=small]“[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]True, Jesus seems to talk about hell quite a lot. However, in the Lord’s prayer He also teaches us another new thing: to call God “Father”. Parents usually don’t punish to destroy their children, but to correct them. Just like the shepherd will not give up before He found all lost sheep, most parents would never abandon their children, and they'd never shut the door to the prodigal son. My Mum frequently told me she’d throw me out of the window, if I did not stop doing xy. I knew that she’d never really do that, but yet I mostly stopped doing xy: not because I feared to be killed, but because I loved her and wanted to make her happy and pleased with me. [/SIZE]

junobet said:

[SIZE=medium]I find your standpoint slightly confusing. You find it “Good News” that – according to your reading of the Bible– the vast majority of humankind is hell-bound? In spite of their atrocities you don’t want ISIS-fighters to burn in hell, but you think God is not at least as compassionate, forgiving and capable to love His enemies as you are?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Well, as I already indicated: the average German Protestant (or Catholic) reads the Bible very differently. [/SIZE]

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It's not an unfamiliar sentiment. We have jails for people who 'break the law'. We let 'em out because we hope that they will rehabilitate, don't we? I mean, we truly hope these people recognise that what they did was unacceptable, and stop it. But we also know that many of them make the decided choice to continue on in their unlawful or dangerous behaviour. What then? We just let them go on harming people, or we put them back in jail?
So, wanting people to come to repentance, but recognising their right to choose otherwise and the consequences of that choice, is not that confusing.

The 'good news' is that Jesus makes us way for us NOT to burn in hell...but it gets to be on God's terms, not ours...after all, he paid the price. The atrocities of ISIS are horrible, and unless they come to Christ, they will pay for them. Just because I want them to realize their sin, and turn to Jesus, doesn't mean I'm saying I wish they (as they are now) don't have to pay for their actions. We'd all need to pay for our actions...justly...unless for Jesus. For in Jesus, we know we have forgiveness, but we are also aware of the sin that means we need him. To dismiss our sins and what they cost, is to dismiss what Christ did on the cross for us. If sin wasn't a big deal, then neither was Christ's sacrifice. I think we cheapen what Jesus did, if we say that people get to reject him but still be covered by him. Nothing in scripture gives us leave to make the assumption that those who scoff at Jesus can get a 'free' ride. Salvation is by and through Christ alone. You accept his sacrifice on your behalf, or you reject it. Again, nothing in scripture suggests those who reject him belong to his bride....nothing.

[SIZE=medium]It sounds incredibly sad to me that you wish that everybody finds forgiveness and grace and yet still believe that most people won’t. So I can but pray for your hope and trust in the Almighty God to grow, “[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]who wants all people to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4)[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. Remember: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26). Our God is not a cruel God, but a God whose very nature is love.[/SIZE]

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Um...yeah. That's what the bible says. Not me...scripture. When it says "the road is narrow and few find it," just after saying "the road to hell is wide and many find it"....I can't see how you can't be clear on that.

[SIZE=medium]As for the verses you cited to support your belief in eternal hell:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] I find it somehow weird how many Christians only quote Matthew 25:46 (in a rather loose translation) to go on about eternal condemnation for others, without paying any attention to the actual point this passage is trying to make: Late on a cold winter’s night an atheist friend of mine offered his spare bed-room to a homeless man whilst I still was googling for a shelter that may still take people in at that hour. It’s rather clear that my atheist friend was more of a sheep and I was more of a goat on that occasion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So I don’t know about you, but I myself certainly am not saintly enough to make it through the narrow gate, however hard I try. Like most of us I will have to put my hopes in verses such as Romans 11:32: [/SIZE][SIZE=small]“[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]”[/SIZE]

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The 'point' of the passage is heeded, of course it is...Christians are called to those things, without a doubt...regardless of 'where' they think a person may be headed. But you cannot use that to deny what it clearly says about hell. Or all the other passages about it. Honestly...it seems to me the only way a person can claim the bible doesn't teach about hell is because they don't want it to. You don't like the idea of hell, you think it doesn't "mesh" with an all-loving God, and so explain away or make 'meaningless' the passages that talk about it. I'm sorry, but that doesn't change the fact that they are there, and that Jesus loves us all enough to warn us about it. You don't send your kid across the road without first explaining the dangers of it. If you send them out letting them think nothing could go wrong, you could end up with a dead kid.

I'm wondering if you think it's just hell that you think is over the top, too much evil for a loving God, or if you think all punishment or hardship is 'out of character' for him. I ask because the bible if full of it. Jesus lamented over Jerusalem, weeping that he had called to her, wanting to gather her under his arms in protection and love...but they refused to come to him. He knew that rejection of him would bring judgment on them...and so it did. When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD, we have reports of some of the most dark and horrid moments for the Jews. So I'm wondering if you think God making that sort of judgement is acceptable, or if you refuse it as well?

[SIZE=medium]True, Jesus seems to talk about hell quite a lot. However, in the Lord’s prayer He also teaches us another new thing: to call God “Father”. Parents usually don’t punish to destroy their children, but to correct them. Just like the shepherd will not give up before He found all lost sheep, most parents would never abandon their children, and they'd never shut the door to the prodigal son. My Mum frequently told me she’d throw me out of the window, if I did not stop doing xy. I knew that she’d never really do that, but yet I mostly stopped doing xy: not because I feared to be killed, but because I loved her and wanted to make her happy and pleased with me. [/SIZE]

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Yes, but the prodigal son had to come home in repentance first, didn't he? If he had foolishly stayed in the foreign land, he would have starved to death in a pig farm. This is my point! God knows what will befall us. So he opened a door for us to come to him, to come home. But if we don't come to Jesus in repentance, we're going to starve in a foreign land.