Under sin

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H. Richard

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All are under sin:

It was asked by someone “would God ask us to do what we couldn’t do?“

The answer is yes, He asked the Jews to keep the Law of Moses. However, when they, the Jews, killed their Messiah (Jesus) He concluded that no man could keep the Law of Moses and He had another plan to save sinful men, a plan to shed the blood of His righteous Son on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind.

Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
NKJV

Galatians 3:21-26
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
NKJV

In this age of God’s grace salvation in not obtained by “not sinning in the flesh.” It is only obtained by a person placing their belief in the work of God on the cross. That means for a person to deny that they can do anything righteous to save him/her self and to simply place all their faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus did on the cross. To claim His work on our behalf is our salvation. Jesus (God) gets all the glory and praise.

In this age of God’s grace all God asks a person to do is trust in His plan of salvation by placing their faith in His Son’s work on the cross. It is the only way that a person can be saved and yet many do not believe it is that simple.

2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
NKJV
 

kerwin

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H.Richard,

Romans 3:9-10
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
NKJV

Why do you post part of an argument?

Post the whole thing.

The NKJV makes it easy to get the whole argument as they subtitle it and separate it out.


Romans 3:9-21New King James Version (NKJV)

All Have Sinned

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[a]
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”; [c]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[d]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[e]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[f]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

As for the title of this thread, those that are slaves to sin are under sin but those who are slaves to righteousness are under righteousness.
 

kerwin

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H.Richard,

Galatians 3:21-26

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

I think you have all the pertinent though the ones who formatted the NKJV have it separated differently. Paul seems to making two separate but related arguments and I find it difficult to separate them. I hope to look at it closer later.
 

H. Richard

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heretoeternity said:
Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law". Paul said in Romans..
How do you think we establish the law? Is it by keeping it? Is that what Paul meant, by keeping it?

Yet Paul also wrote that the children of God are not under the law. How do you resolve that?

The children of God establish the law by acknowledging that we are sinners and can not keep it. Acknowledging our sins leads us to place our faith, trust, and confidence in what God did for us on the cross. In other words the law did it's job in that it teaches us we can not keep it and need Jesus' work on the cross to save us.

I write this for those that will hear it. heretoeternity will never hear it.
 

kerwin

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H.Richard,

The children of God establish the law by acknowledging that we are sinners and can not keep it. Acknowledging our sins leads us to place our faith, trust, and confidence in what God did for us on the cross. In other words the law did it's job in that it teaches us we can not keep it and need Jesus' work on the cross to save us.

I assume you are speaking of confessing ones sins and acknowledging they can be overcome by walking according to the flesh. Even then it is an incomplete message as a Christian must also walk according to the Spirit.

That is done by faith providing the Christian in question has received the Spirit to walk by.


All of this is a summation as one also has to believe God is God and Jesus is Jesus and not worship an image and call it by one or both of their names.
 

FHII

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H. Richard said:
How do you think we establish the law? Is it by keeping it? Is that what Paul meant, by keeping it?

Yet Paul also wrote that the children of God are not under the law. How do you resolve that?

The children of God establish the law by acknowledging that we are sinners and can not keep it. Acknowledging our sins leads us to place our faith, trust, and confidence in what God did for us on the cross. In other words the law did it's job in that it teaches us we can not keep it and need Jesus' work on the cross to save us.

I write this for those that will hear it. heretoeternity will never hear it.

There are three topics I really wish i had time to address on ths forum, and. Rom 3:31. Its such a simple verse yet it confounds some so deeply!

I will give the short version:
What is the purpose of the third chapter? Verses 1-20 are an extension of Chapter two.they show that both the Jews and Gentiles are in need of grace. The rest of the chapter deals with being justified by faith.

So lets look at verse 31:

Romans 3:31 KJV
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Breaking it down, do we make the law void through faith?

The anseer is no.

Rather we have established the law. How?

How have we established the law? By works? By keeping the law? Verses 1-20 saiys it can't be done. Romans 4 talks about how Abraham was justified by faith, not of works.

So how then do we establish the law? We establish the law by FAITH!
 

kerwin

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FHII,

Rather we have established the law. How?

How have we established the law? By works? By keeping the law? Verses 1-20 saiys it can't be done. Romans 4 talks about how Abraham was justified by faith, not of works.

So how then do we establish the law? We establish the law by FAITH!

You have a couple of unsound premises.

1) Abraham was a slave to sin because he was never immersed in Christ. Romans 6. On the other hand those that follow the true gospel have been freed from serving sin and have become servants to righteousness
2) Paul explicitly states "what the Law says it says to those under the Law" and being true Christians are not under the Law verses 1-20 only apply to those under the Law.

Never the words " We establish the law by FAITH" though perhaps not the way you mean them one that both receives and walks according to the Spirit does so by faith.
 

FHII

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Kerwin,

Nothing you said made sense to me. It cmes off rather incoherent. Therefore, i really can't comment.
 

kerwin

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FHII,

Actually it is ideas that come from come so they probably do not make sense to you either.

John 8:34New King James Version (NKJV)

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

The fact is that a anyone that sins is a slave to sin.


John 8:31-32New King James Version (NKJV)

The Truth Shall Make You Free

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

The fact is that the truth makes those that adhere to Jesus' teaching free from being slaves to sin.


John 8:35-36New King James Version (NKJV)

35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

The fact is those that are set free are free in deed.

Jesus set those that adhere to his words free by sacrificing himself on the cross for the whole world. Abraham died before that occurred therefore he was not set free from slavery to sin.

Just some straightforward reasoning based on solid facts.

Paul uses much the same wording in Romans 6 that Jesus uses in John 8 though he uses a different point of view in that he looks backward while Jesus looked forward.
 

FHII

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kerwin said:
FHII,

Actually it is ideas that come from come so they probably do not make sense to you either.


John 8:34New King James Version (NKJV)

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

The fact is that a anyone that sins is a slave to sin.


John 8:31-32New King James Version (NKJV)

The Truth Shall Make You Free

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

The fact is that the truth makes those that adhere to Jesus' teaching free from being slaves to sin.


John 8:35-36New King James Version (NKJV)

35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

The fact is those that are set free are free in deed.

Jesus set those that adhere to his words free by sacrificing himself on the cross for the whole world. Abraham died before that occurred therefore he was not set free from slavery to sin.

Just some straightforward reasoning based on solid facts.

Paul uses much the same wording in Romans 6 that Jesus uses in John 8 though he uses a different point of view in that he looks backward while Jesus looked forward.
Ok... Thanks for expounding. I have a little clearer idea of what you were saying.

But i don't know what exactly you feel i am in error about.
 

H. Richard

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kerwin said:
FHII,

Actually it is ideas that come from come so they probably do not make sense to you either.

John 8:34New King James Version (NKJV)

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

The fact is that a anyone that sins is a slave to sin.


John 8:31-32New King James Version (NKJV)

The Truth Shall Make You Free

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

The fact is that the truth makes those that adhere to Jesus' teaching free from being slaves to sin.


John 8:35-36New King James Version (NKJV)

35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

The fact is those that are set free are free in deed.

Jesus set those that adhere to his words free by sacrificing himself on the cross for the whole world. Abraham died before that occurred therefore he was not set free from slavery to sin.

Just some straightforward reasoning based on solid facts.

Paul uses much the same wording in Romans 6 that Jesus uses in John 8 though he uses a different point of view in that he looks backward while Jesus looked forward.
The flesh is a slave to sin. It is the spirit that has been set free. I do wish people would look at Romans 7 with an open mind and realize that every child of God is a new spirit in a body that is sinful.

Rom 7:21-25
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

God does not change a flesh and blood human body and make it sinless. Paul says that in the last 8 words of verse 25 above.
 

kerwin

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FHII,

You used Abraham as an example of one that is in the new covenant. Abraham was under sin because he was not in the new covenant. Verses 1-20 is about being a slave to sin as the point that those that those that are under the Law are slaves to sin. Gentiles are also slaves to sin but Verses 1-20 does not make that point as well as it is assumed.

On the other hand Paul uses Abraham as an example of faith and the results of faith, whether in or out of the new covenant. James does the same later though his point is that faith gives birth to works.
 

kerwin

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H.Richard,

That is not what Paul is saying. In Romans 7 Paul is addressing the situation before he became a Christian.

Under the Law Paul knew the Law intellectually but he was powerless against the desires of the flesh so he did not do what is right but instead bore the fruits of the flesh.

He speaks of slavery of sin and being made a slave to righteousness in chapter 6 and is simply providing an example of being enslaved to sin from his own life. The comment at the end is how he is thankful Christ delivered him and made him a servant to righteousness.
 

H. Richard

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kerwin said:
H.Richard,

That is not what Paul is saying. In Romans 7 Paul is addressing the situation before he became a Christian.

Under the Law Paul knew the Law intellectually but he was powerless against the desires of the flesh so he did not do what is right but instead bore the fruits of the flesh.

He speaks of slavery of sin and being made a slave to righteousness in chapter 6 and is simply providing an example of being enslaved to sin from his own life. The comment at the end is how he is thankful Christ delivered him and made him a servant to righteousness.
What foolishness. Christ delivers the spiritual man, not the sinful flesh. You seen to be having a problem acknowledging the two exists.

Paul became a child of God on the road to Damascus. I have heard what you said on many forums. It is a smoke screen.

Paul is teaching us the struggle between the flesh and the spirit that is the make up of the child of God. The words are clear. The child of God is made up of both the sinful flesh and the sinless spiritual part that is of God. Your attempt to say that was before he was a Christian is just an excuse to dismiss it.

Paul was stating in verses 24 and 25 that Jesus has set him free of the condemnation of his sinful flesh. I am excited too in that Jesus has set me free form the condemnation of my sinful flesh. But I do not think you will hear any of this.
 

kerwin

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H.Richard,

What foolishness. Christ delivers the spiritual man, not the sinful flesh. You seen to be having a problem acknowledging the two exists.

I did not say Christ delivered sinful flesh. Instead I said that Jesus saves us from being slaves to the desires of the flesh. He does that by giving us the Spirit so that when we walk by it we are slaves to righteousness but when we sin we are make ourselves slaves to sin. Paul speaks the same way in Galatians 5. In short Jesus "set Paul free the condemnation of his sinful flesh" by giving him the Spirit to walk according to.
 

FHII

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kerwin said:
FHII,

You used Abraham as an example of one that is in the new covenant. Abraham was under sin because he was not in the new covenant. Verses 1-20 is about being a slave to sin as the point that those that those that are under the Law are slaves to sin. Gentiles are also slaves to sin but Verses 1-20 does not make that point as well as it is assumed.

On the other hand Paul uses Abraham as an example of faith and the results of faith, whether in or out of the new covenant. James does the same later though his point is that faith gives birth to works.
I simply catalogued what was written in Romans. ROmans 3 says what I noted, and the next chapter (Romans 4) talks about the Faith of Abraham. No fault on my part.