sorry but this sounds absurd. There is only one Heaven, only 1 resurrection, although there is talk in Rev of the 2nd death but only one resurrection to Heaven... maybe Purgatory is the 2nd phase... I dont know.. not speaking for theChurch thereStanJ said:
"Hell doesn't last forever"..God is merciful
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one of the readings at Mass recently was the psg about the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man goes to Hell, then cries out to Heaven where the poor man Lazarus is and asks Father Abraham to send someone back from the dead to save his brothers. He is told that there is a CHASM between the 2 places so that no one can go from one place to the other...
this would tend to reinforce the idea that Hell is forever
this would tend to reinforce the idea that Hell is forever
The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus proves that claim because Jesus does not teach false doctrine.n2thelight said:
Why would you believe a mere human being over Jesus anyways?
Note: Sorry, I answered you twice.
The old and the new covenants are two separate narratives the first becomes obsolete and the second starts a new narrative. The New Covenant brings to completion what God started under the old Covenant and the New Covenant completes what we understand of God that was initially revealed under the old Covenant but the old Covenant is Obsolete and has disappeared. My point was that you're mixing the New Covenant narrative that you understand with the old Covenant narrative that existed at that time and you cannot use the New Covenant narrative to understand the old Covenantkerwin said:
This is not surprising as you have an incomplete understanding of the New Covenant. I'm not talking about heaven here and there are two resurrections... the first resurrection is for believers and the second resurrection is for unbelievers. There is no scriptural evidence of purgatory.ScaliaFan said:
I do not think the RCC teaches that. If they do not then I I agree with them on that point.StanJ said:
The Old Covenant is rendered obsolete because those that walk according to the Spirit keep all the commandments about morality in the Old Covenant and the Old Covenant provided no way to accomplice that. Instead it allowed for those under it to be slaves of sin by giving them the sacrifice of atonement to atone for those sins.
In the New Covenant Jesus became the sacrifice of atonement but he also gives the Spirit that can be walked by and freeing the one that does so from sin. It is the later that makes the New Covenant superior to the Old and thus renders is obsolete but otherwise all Scripture is useful for teaching and other things.
In short we disagree.
not sure i u/stand but Jesus said Not one jot or one tittle of the law will be done away with (until/unless God says)--paraphraseStanJ said:
Jesus was speaking to the Jews in regards to the oath their ancestors took that bind both the oath-takers and their descendants to obey all the commandments in the Law of Moses. Even the Gentiles that were God fearing were under the Law of Moses because their ancestors did not take that oath of obedience to it. You can see evidence for both of these in the book of Acts, in that Paul was party to circumcising Timothy, whose mother was a Jew, despite speaking against the circumcision of Gentiles and in the letter from the Council of Jerusalem to the Gentiles.ScaliaFan said:
So despite those teacher's of God's Word that claim otherwise not one jot or title of has been done but in it are many Jewish traditions handed down to them by God that have never applied to Gentiles. It also contains those that have applied to everyone whether Jew or Gentile from before the days of Noah. These morality Laws are summed up in the words Love your neighbor as yourself. In the Old Testament and the Gospels there was no way overcome the desires that lead to sin except human willpower and it has never been sufficient for total victory. A new way to overcome those desires was introduced by Peter at the first Pentecost and that way was the way to receive the Spirit of God.
That introduction gave humanity the power of God to work on their behalf against their own evil desires (Romans 1:16) and therefore rendered the way to fulfill the old covenant obsolete as it was insufficient for the need. It is the same religion for the Jews and the Gentiles though their ways of serving God are different. The gospel is the same both and one of the fruits of the Spirit is to honor one's oaths, even the oath that one's ancestors bound one to. (Romans 14)
I have no idea while you're bringing the RCC into this? I said nothing about the RCC and basically what you're saying here is what I've already said so in short we do agree but you're just agreeing with me. What exactly is your native tongue?kerwin said:
See this is the problem when you try to paraphrase the scriptures but you don't really know the scripture.ScaliaFan said:
What the scripture does it say in Matthew 5:18 is;
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place.
So as far as everything taking place is concerned, Jesus did that which is why he said when he died on the cross, IT IS FINISHED!
OzSpen
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Why do you want to know?OzSpen said:
Scripture speaks of life of and indefinite length that is commonly interpreted as being eternal.
In the end it is God who will make the call.
And yet you assert that Eternal for punishment and Eternal for life do not connote the same meaning. I think it was a fairly simple question that you again equivocate about, while you Duck & Weave like a boxer.kerwin said:
StanJ,StanJ said:
I believe they are both indefinite and the word needs no further interpretation by me. After all, I am happy to let God make the call.
OzSpen
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Don't you know what eternal life is and where Jesus spoke about it. John 3:16 (ESV) is a reasonable starter for the meaning of eternal life.kerwin said:
Why are you ducking and weaving on this?
I see in your Personal Statement of Faith that you make the statement: 'I believe that the Human being Jesus Christ is the promised Anointed of God and therefore his chief Son of the Spirit'. Do you believe Jesus is God or not?
Oz
OzSpen
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Now tell us what the Greek lexicons and Greek word studies say is the meaning of aiwnios.kerwin said:
Bible Hub Entry for aióniosOzSpen said:
- Short Definition: eternal, unending
- Long Definition: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
Matthew 25:26 is (aiōnion) is an adjective acquisitive feminine form of aiónios. aiwnios may be an alernative spelling of aiwnios. In either case it is Strong's 166.
"age-long, and therefore: practically eternal" is the one that does not break Scripture.
The same is correct of "partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
In addition everlasting itself does not necessary mean forever, Instead it can be a very long time according to the dictionary at Google.
OzSpen
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Thank you for confirming that you cannot read Greek in the lexicons or word studies.kerwin said:
God has already made the call in his word. It's not about what you believe, which is the problem, but about what the Bible says. That you equivocate about the Greek and ignore what credentialed Greek Scholars have translated into English, is your basic problem. According to your rationale when Jesus says never and Mark 3:29 it doesn't really mean never.kerwin said:
Typically you referred to Modern references instead of biblical references which tells us that you really don't believe what the word of God says but interpreted through the eyes of modern unbelievers. That basically means that you don't believe what the Bible says so why are we discussing it with you? Seems a waste if time in my opinion.kerwin said:
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