Where do you see anywhere in scripture where Christ says He's coming to take anyone to Heaven?Marcus O'Reillius said:
Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation
- Thread starter joegreen
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
As Dr John Walvoord, a rapture proponent of the Dallas Theological Seminary, actually said in one of his books: 'a rapture to heaven is not found in scripture', then Marcus won't be able to find it either.
But that doesn't stop him from abusing those who challenge his false beliefs.
Sadly, millions have been taught this idea and the thinking is because the majority of believe in a rapture, then it must be true. The sad fact is, like the 50 million Frenchmen, who were all wrong, those who have been fooled into thinking they won't face trials and testing, will be shocked and terrified when the Day of the Lord's wrath suddenly comes upon them. Provided they are true Christians, they will be saved, but only by passing thru fire. 1 Cor 3:13-15
But that doesn't stop him from abusing those who challenge his false beliefs.
Sadly, millions have been taught this idea and the thinking is because the majority of believe in a rapture, then it must be true. The sad fact is, like the 50 million Frenchmen, who were all wrong, those who have been fooled into thinking they won't face trials and testing, will be shocked and terrified when the Day of the Lord's wrath suddenly comes upon them. Provided they are true Christians, they will be saved, but only by passing thru fire. 1 Cor 3:13-15
The main reason for the Church to be in Heaven is to be with Christ. John 17:24 " Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."keras said:
You say I have misapplied John 14:1-3. Where did Jesus go in John 14:1-3? What does "receive you unto myself" mean? What does "where I am, there ye may be also" mean?
Paul recognized the threefold division of Jews, Gentiles, and the Church because such a division was real. That is irregardless of who got the gospel first. Of course there is only one Christian people. That is the Church. Consists of both Jew and Gentile.
Romans 9:26 is a quote from Hosea 1:10. Romans 9:26 "And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." ('them', ' Ye' , and 'they') are Israel, not the Church.
Stranger
Could you give the quote from Walvoord and where it is located?keras said:
We who hold to the rapture know we will face trials and testings. We believe that we will not face the Tribulation.
Marcus O'Rellius makes a good point. Seems that those who want to do away with the rapture also don't want us in Heaven.
Stranger
John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am; that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me: for Thou lovedst Me before the foundation of the world."
He will be on earth
And what would you have us do with
John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
He will be on earth
And what would you have us do with
John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
Where does it say we go to Heaven when He receives us?
Where does it say we go to Heaven when He receives us?
Stranger said:
Deuteronomy 4:30 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Judges 10:14 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.
1 Samuel 10:19 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.
1 Samuel 26:24 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And, behold, as thy life was much set by this day in mine eyes, so let my life be much set by in the eyes of the LORD, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation.
Matthew 13:21 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 24:21 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:29 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:24 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
John 16:33 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Acts 14:22 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through muchtribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Romans 2:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Romans 5:3 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Romans 8:35 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 12:12 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
2 Corinthians 1:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2 Corinthians 7:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.
Ephesians 3:13 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
1 Thessalonians 3:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
2 Thessalonians 1:4 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions andtribulations that ye endure:
2 Thessalonians 1:6 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Revelation 1:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 2:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Revelation 2:10 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Revelation 2:22 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Revelation 7:14 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
When Christ is on earth, the Church will be with Him. When He is in Heaven, the Church will be with Him.n2thelight said:
I would have you believe it and believe John 14:1-3. Just as John 14:1-3 occurs at a time known to God, until that time we remain in the world enduring the hatred of the world.
Stranger
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Jesus was with Moses and the "congregation" of Hebrews, the 12 tribes, in the wilderness. - Literal reading in context with the passage where Stephen is giving a rendition of history to the rabbis - teaching the teachers, eh? How'd that work out for him?n2thelight said:
Luke's usage of ekklesia for what Stephen said in Hebrew does not denote the "Church" as we have come be know it. It does foreshadow what will be: Immanuel - God is with us.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
You know, rabbi keras is such a poor student, that he should never teach. I have to check everything he says because so often, as is the case here - the "facts" upon which he lays his foundation - are a lie.keras said:
Reason #42 for a Pre-tribulation Rapture by John Walvoord:
At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain on the earth without translation.
And oh, rabbi keras, writer of fiction; we've found where it says we are in heaven and we've told it to you many times. You, though, remain blind, and can only lead the blind.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
Same as answer as Stranger - and the same one I've given before: John 14:1-3.n2thelight said:
The Church can be seen in Heaven in Revelation 7:9-17.
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
You have taken Jesus' prayer on the eve of His Crucifixion out of context and you have reversed the order to force it to say what it does not say.n2thelight said:
John 17:15 concerns the Disciples, soon to be Apostles, in the world after He is in Heaven. The protection tereo ek - found in keep them from evil is repeated by John in Rev 3:10. The Apostles were all allowed to be killed: martyred (except for John) - yet none of them were lost!
John 17:24, like John 14:1-3, concerns the future glory we will have with Jesus. If you want to say Jesus is praying that they be with Him where He was at - at that time - the prayer makes no sense because they were already with Him at that time on the Mount of Olives.
As Jesus is 1.) Immortal, the first and the last, and 2.) able to cross from this world into Heaven, and 3.) not relegated to Paradise in death, but able to go to that deep, dark place where the Spirits from the time of Noah are imprisoned, and 4.) able to cross from death into life - where He is - is boundless.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
What anyone 'wants', will have nothing to do with how God will reward or punish. Hating and abusing those who try to point out the Bible truths, shows an unchristian attitude.Stranger said:
The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, is mainly directed at the ungodly peoples. Despite these disasters happening, they still refuse to repent of what they had done. Revelation 16:11
But we Christians will still be on earth to see it, half in the holy Land and half of us in a place of safety. Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 12
In the first edition of his book, 'The Rapture Question', Dr John Walvoord wrote: A rapture is determined more by ecclestology, [theology of the church] than eschatology. [theology of the last things]
Neither postribulationism nor pretribulationism is an explicit teaching of scripture. The Bible does not state it in so many words.
In the book; 'Rapture: The End Times Error that leaves the Bible Behind', by David Currie, he says: Walvoord's admission, that a rapture to heaven is not a clear and concise teaching of the Scriptures, was so explosive that in all future editions of that book it was deleted.
But there it is: nowhere does one passage of the Bible speak of a rapture to heaven of anyone on or before the Second coming of Jesus. Rapture believers must try to justify their belief by piecing bits of verses together here and there.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Why DO people believe in a rapture to heaven?
It’s a great idea! Get away from this troubled world.
It is the only end times doctrine that many have ever been taught.
But the fact there is no actual supporting scripture for this idea, is no deterrent because some scriptures can be made to infer the idea of a rapture. There are prophesies telling about spiritual happenings, but none of them actually say that any living people will be taken to heaven.
As there are many prophesies telling about the future of Israel, some people make the error of thinking the Israel of God is the Jewish State of Israel and the Christian Church is therefore, separate from the Israel of prophecy. This is incorrect, many passages in the New Testament confirm that there is only one people of God, call them the Ekkelasia, spiritual Israel or simply God’s righteous Christian people and the rest of the world are the ungodly peoples, doomed for destruction.
But the false idea of Two People Two Promises has to be an immutable tenet of the rapture theory for them to go to heaven, while Israel faces tribulation, etc. That this idea is un-Christian: ‘let them burn, we will be safe’, as well as the shockingly bad notion of ‘escape from responsibilities’, seems to not be a concern for them.
With the belief of a rapture removal to heaven firmly fixed in their minds, people then fail to see the truth of what God has planned for the future. There will be testing times, to come upon everyone as Luke 21:35 makes crystal clear. What we must pray for is not escape by removal, but for the Lord’s protection, promised to His people during all that is coming and for them to stand, dressed in white linen, before Jesus when He Returns. Revelation 19:9-11
It’s a great idea! Get away from this troubled world.
It is the only end times doctrine that many have ever been taught.
But the fact there is no actual supporting scripture for this idea, is no deterrent because some scriptures can be made to infer the idea of a rapture. There are prophesies telling about spiritual happenings, but none of them actually say that any living people will be taken to heaven.
As there are many prophesies telling about the future of Israel, some people make the error of thinking the Israel of God is the Jewish State of Israel and the Christian Church is therefore, separate from the Israel of prophecy. This is incorrect, many passages in the New Testament confirm that there is only one people of God, call them the Ekkelasia, spiritual Israel or simply God’s righteous Christian people and the rest of the world are the ungodly peoples, doomed for destruction.
But the false idea of Two People Two Promises has to be an immutable tenet of the rapture theory for them to go to heaven, while Israel faces tribulation, etc. That this idea is un-Christian: ‘let them burn, we will be safe’, as well as the shockingly bad notion of ‘escape from responsibilities’, seems to not be a concern for them.
With the belief of a rapture removal to heaven firmly fixed in their minds, people then fail to see the truth of what God has planned for the future. There will be testing times, to come upon everyone as Luke 21:35 makes crystal clear. What we must pray for is not escape by removal, but for the Lord’s protection, promised to His people during all that is coming and for them to stand, dressed in white linen, before Jesus when He Returns. Revelation 19:9-11
The Tribulation is mainly for unbelieving Israel. The unbelieving of the earth are secondary. But it's their just due as they are unbelieving also. It is the time of 'Jacobs Trouble'. Which is why the Church isn't there.keras said:
So, you're saying David Curries says, Walvoord said 'A rapture is determined more by ecclesiology than eschatology'. Sounds good to me. I see nothing there that states a rapture to heaven is not found in Scripture. And post pre or mid are just time elements as to when the rapture occurs. But surely the quote is in the first edition of this book. Isn't the footnote there giving the page number? It's no big deal because there is nothing there.
Every doctrine in Scripture is pieced together with Scriptures from throughout the Bible. The key is to do it correctly. Is.28:10 " For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." Or as Timothy says, "rightly dividing the word of truth". 2Tim. 2:15 And here too, the key is to divide correctly.
Stranger
Marcus O'Reillius
Active Member
[removed]keras said:
Actually, it's not a fact that no Scripture supports the idea of a Rapture to Heaven. There is only none that rabbi keras can see.
keras
Writer of Bible study guides
Obviously, there is no shifting the beliefs of those locked into false teachings. Only when the Day comes, will most finally realize their mistake.
What I want you all to study carefully is Romans 11:13-27 and realize that we Christians are now part of the 'olive tree' of Israel. We, the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, are the inheritors of God's promises and it Is our destiny to inhabit all of the holy Land. Isaiah 49:8 WE will receive the blessings of God to His people and as we live there, in peace and prosperity, Isaiah 62:1-12, and it will be like heaven on earth.
What I want you all to study carefully is Romans 11:13-27 and realize that we Christians are now part of the 'olive tree' of Israel. We, the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, are the inheritors of God's promises and it Is our destiny to inhabit all of the holy Land. Isaiah 49:8 WE will receive the blessings of God to His people and as we live there, in peace and prosperity, Isaiah 62:1-12, and it will be like heaven on earth.
Similar threads
