Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation

keras said:

We, the Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, are the inheritors of God's promises and it Is our destiny to inhabit all of the holy Land. Isaiah 49:8 WE will receive the blessings of God to His people and as we live there, in peace and prosperity, Isaiah 62:1-12, and it will be like heaven on earth.

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This is Replacement Theology.

keras said:

What I want you all to study carefully is Romans 11:13-27 and realize that we Christians are now part of the 'olive tree' of Israel.

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Replacement Theology says that Paul shows that the Church is really the same "olive tree" as was Israel, and the Church is now the tree. Therefore, to distinguish between Israel and the Church is, strictly speaking, false. Indeed, people of Jewish origin need to be grafted back into the Church (Rom 11:17-23).

Rebuttal: This claim is the most outrageous because this passage clearly shows that we Gentiles are the "wild olive branches," who get our life from being grafted into the olive tree. The tree represents the covenants, promises and hopes of Israel (Eph. 2:12), rooted in the Messiah and fed by the sap, which represents the Holy Spirit, giving life to the Jews (the "natural branches") and Gentile alike. We Gentiles are told to remember that the olive tree holds us up and NOT to be arrogant or boast against the "natural branches" because they can be grafted in again. The olive tree is NOT the Church. We are simply grafted into God's plan that preceded us for over 2,000 years.

Quoted material in brown by: http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

The olive tree is a metaphor for Israel. We Christians are grafted into that tree. Therefore we are the Israel of God.

There is no replacement, just joining into the original Covenant, promises and hopes that God made to His righteous Christian people, now peoples from every tribe, race nation and language. Isaiah 56:1-8 Ephesians 2:11-18

The attempts to maintain a separation between Israel [the Jews] and the Church, [true Christians] falls flat when we look at the shockingly apostate and outright sinful condition of the inhabitants of the Land of Israel at present. The prophesies say Judah will be judged and only a remnant will be saved; the Messianic Jews.

But in Romans 11:25-26 it says: when the full number of the gentiles have been admitted, then all Israel will be saved.
Put a little clearer: When the people of every race, nation and language have joined the Israel of God, by reason of their faith, then all of true Israel will be saved.

​Deny this and you deny Scripture.

keras said:

The olive tree is a metaphor for Israel. We Christians are grafted into that tree. Therefore we are the Israel of God.

There is no replacement, just joining into the original Covenant, promises and hopes that God made to His righteous Christian people, now peoples from every tribe, race nation and language. Isaiah 56:1-8 Ephesians 2:11-18

The attempts to maintain a separation between Israel [the Jews] and the Church, [true Christians] falls flat when we look at the shockingly apostate and outright sinful condition of the inhabitants of the Land of Israel at present. The prophesies say Judah will be judged and only a remnant will be saved; the Messianic Jews.

But in Romans 11:25-26 it says: when the full number of the gentiles have been admitted, then all Israel will be saved.
Put a little clearer: When the people of every race, nation and language have joined the Israel of God, by reason of their faith, then all of true Israel will be saved.

​Deny this and you deny Scripture.

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Not so fast. In the metaphor you speak of, Israel is not the Olive Tree. She is the branches also. Rom. 11:17 " And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

Both Israel and the Gentile Chrstians are branches. Both are a product of the tree; one natural, one wild. Therefore, just because Gentiles were grafted in, does not make them Israel.

How does seeing Israel and the Church as separate fall flat because of the condition of the people of Israel at this time?

Romans 11:25 says " For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." The Gentiles did not come into the branches of Israel. The Gentiles came into the root and fatness of the tree. The natural branches who are Israel, shall be grafted in again. Note the 'until' in Rom. 11:25. And Rom.11:24 says, " ...for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree, which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree."

The point is that when the amount of Gentiles believe and are saved that God has so appointed, then Israel's blindness is lifted. That doesn't make the believing Gentiles Israel.

Stranger

keras said:

​Deny this and you deny Scripture.

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When you have to twist Scripture around, and preach replacement theology as rabbi keras does - then you deny Scripture.

To refute a charlatan is to uphold Scripture.

Stranger said:

The point is that when the amount of Gentiles believe and are saved that God has so appointed, then Israel's blindness is lifted. That doesn't make the believing Gentiles Israel.

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Exactly.

Stranger asked:
How does seeing Israel and the Church as separate fall flat because of the condition of the people of Israel at this time?

Keras reply: The current inhabitants of Israel are in the same category as every other ungodly nation. Prophecy says that only a remnant of them will be saved. Zechariah 12:7-9
Jesus said: the Kingdom will be taken from you, [the Jewish people] and given to a nation who bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

So the atheistic, LGBT and arrogant Israelis of today will be wiped out, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Jeremiah 10:18, Isaiah 6:11-13, and the people who bear fruit, namely true Christians, will inherit the Land, then later, the Kingdom during the Millennium.


Stranger said: The point is that when the amount of Gentiles believe and are saved that God has so appointed, then Israel's blindness is lifted. That doesn't make the believing Gentiles Israel.

What does make every true Christian believer the Israel of God, is the whole message of the New Testament, of Jesus who came to Judah and was rejected by them, then appointed the disciples to go to the gentiles, who would then become Israelites by faith. Proved by Ephesians 2:11-18, Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 9:6-8, 1 Peter 2:9-10
The usurpers in the Land now, are those who claim to be God's people but are not, belong to the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9

In order to maintain your rapture to heaven theory, it is necessary to ignore the main message of Jesus. That salvation is open to everyone and God has no favorites.
The State of Israel and its citizens have no special place now in the end times. They did fulfil the 'fig tree budding' prophecy, but now they face judgement along with all the rest of the nations. The soon to happen disaster by fire upon a world, once again 'as in the days of Noah'.

keras

So? Just because national Israel is lost and in unbelief, doesn't mean the Church and Israel are the same.

It is Isaiah 10:20-22 that speaks of the remnant. Paul quotes this in Romans 9:27. He is speaking of Israel just as Isaiah is speaking of Israel. A remnant yes. But a remnant that is Israel. Nothing here says that the Church and Israel are the same.

Yes, the kingdom of God was removed from Israel and given to the Church for a time. That doesn't mean Israel and the Church are the same. But the disciples knew the kingdom would be restored to Israel, which is why they asked Christ in Acts 1:6 "...wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? " Christs reply is most telling. Acts 1:7 " And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. " Christ didn't say the kingdom wouldn't be given back to Israel. He said it wasn't for them to know the time. That is proof that Israel will once again be given back the kingdom of God.

The message of the New Testament does not make the Church the Israel of God. It makes it the Church.

That salvation at this time is offered to all does nothing to take away from the rapture. At this time all who are believers in Christ are the Church. What's the problem?

Yes, the State of Israel will be facing judgement. It is called the Tribulation. The last seven years of the indignation. So? They are still Israel.

Stranger

Stranger said: The message of the New Testament does not make the Church the Israel of God. It makes it the Church.

You ignore the specific statements of Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 9:6-9, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and from the OT, Psalms 73:1, Isaiah 56:1-8 Happy with that?


Stranger said: That salvation at this time is offered to all does nothing to take away from the rapture. At this time all who are believers in Christ are the Church. What's the problem?

The problem is that such a thing as a rapture removal to heaven of living people is never stated in the Bible. What the Lord's people, true Christians from every race and language are promised is protection on the Lord's Day of wrath and their restoration as the Israel of God, into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-21, and dozens of other prophesies.

keras said:

The problem is that such a thing as a rapture removal to heaven of living people is never stated in the Bible.

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Incorrect.

And Stranger - you might want to check any and all references rabbi keras gives you; he has a habit of dropping verses that really don't say what he says they say.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

Incorrect.

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So provide the scripture that says : 'God will take His people alive to heaven', or equivalent, and if you can't - then leave this forum.

keras said:

Stranger said: The message of the New Testament does not make the Church the Israel of God. It makes it the Church.

You ignore the specific statements of Galatians 3:26-29, Romans 9:6-9, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and from the OT, Psalms 73:1, Isaiah 56:1-8 Happy with that?


Stranger said: That salvation at this time is offered to all does nothing to take away from the rapture. At this time all who are believers in Christ are the Church. What's the problem?

The problem is that such a thing as a rapture removal to heaven of living people is never stated in the Bible. What the Lord's people, true Christians from every race and language are promised is protection on the Lord's Day of wrath and their restoration as the Israel of God, into all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-21, and dozens of other prophesies.

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No, I do not ignore those verses. How do I ignore them?

Your answer to my statement, "that salvation at this time is offered to all does nothing to take away from the rapture", is no answer. You just repeat there is no rapture. In other words you gave no explanation. Salvation to all at this time does nothing to refute the rapture.

Stranger

Marcus O'Reillius said:

Incorrect.

And Stranger - you might want to check any and all references rabbi keras gives you; he has a habit of dropping verses that really don't say what he says they say.

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Thanks. I will check what I can.

Stranger

keras said:

So provide the scripture that says : 'God will take His people alive to heaven', or equivalent, and if you can't - then leave this forum.

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Well, that is what we are discussing under this topic. We not only provide Scripture we believe speaks to the rapture, but we deal with Scripture you say denies any rapture. Neither your or my salvation is dependent on our beliefs concerning the rapture or whether Israel and the Church are the same body. If you can disprove the rapture, then go ahead. But I haven't seen any disproof yet.

Stranger

keras said:

So provide the scripture that says : 'God will take His people alive to heaven', or equivalent, and if you can't - then leave this forum.

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We already have. Many times over.

The Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, having been gathered up and delivered to the barn of Heaven and set before the Father - who is IN HEAVEN. Rev 7:9-17.

As for leaving this forum - someone who preaches Replacement Theology, who has rewritten Scripture, and continues to malign Scripture, saying it says what it specifically doesn't say - is in no position of authority to render who should post or not post, rabbi keras.

Marcus O'Reillius said:

We already have. Many times over.

The Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, having been gathered up and delivered to the barn of Heaven and set before the Father - who is IN HEAVEN. Rev 7:9-17.

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The chapter of Rev 7 is set entirely on earth, the 144,000 and the great multitude are in Jerusalem, there is no change of location , let alone to heaven mentioned. Also it isn't the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to came during the last 3.5 years before the Return, in Rev 7:14, but it is a reference to the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Your mis interpretation of Matthew 3:12 as a rapture to heaven, just doesn't fit. Going to heaven, is added by you.

Stranger said:

Well, that is what we are discussing under this topic. We not only provide Scripture we believe speaks to the rapture, but we deal with Scripture you say denies any rapture. Neither your or my salvation is dependent on our beliefs concerning the rapture or whether Israel and the Church are the same body. If you can disprove the rapture, then go ahead. But I haven't seen any disproof yet.

Stranger

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Do humans ever go to heaven?
The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.
Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."
All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many "Christian" churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?
Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach
otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.
The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.
Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the
Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.
Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period
of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.

IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....
And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!
Christians use such terminology all the time. Preachers use it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?
The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.
There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.
I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?
Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN
Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4
Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?
Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of
the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23
Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of
life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal at Christ's return in glory, when the resurrection of the righteous saints takes place. See John 5: 25-29; 1 Cor. 15; 1
Thess. 4: 16; and John 6: 37-39.

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in
another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23
Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall RESURRECT the DEAD. 1 Thes.4: 16
Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return when the saints are resurrected. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.
Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.
Yes, again Paul says we look to, wait, hope for Christ's Return and the resurrection.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN
Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the righteous, those accounted worthy, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, Luke 21:34-36
Ref: Keith Hunt

keras said:

The chapter of Rev 7 is set entirely on earth,

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Nope. We've been through this many times before.

rabbi keras can't see it thought his glasses, and so becomes the blind leader. Follow him at your own peril...

The Throne, the Father, the Four Living Creatures, the 24 Elders, the Lamb, and the Angels are ALL depicted in chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation as being IN HEAVEN.
You know, the place where the real Temple is that provides the template for the physical Temple on earth is based upon.

keras

Concerning your reply #76, we discussed this on page2 of this topic already. People have already gone to heaven, remember. And God has already raptured some, remember. Where is Christ now?

Stranger

As expected, you simply ignore every refutation I make. This is exactly as Paul tells 2 Timothy 4:4 People will stop their ears to the truth and believe fables.

Christ is in heaven now, sure, and He said to His disciples that where He was going, they couldn't come. John 7:34 They were all, except John, martyred. More worthy than them, are you? You cannot make the removal of Enoch and Elijah prove a rapture of millions at this time.

I still await anyone to quote a scripture that clearly states God will take people to heaven before His wrath.

keras said:

As expected, you simply ignore every refutation I make. This is exactly as Paul tells 2 Timothy 4:4 People will stop their ears to the truth and believe fables.

Christ is in heaven now, sure, and He said to His disciples that where He was going, they couldn't come. John 7:34 They were all, except John, martyred. More worthy than them, are you? You cannot make the removal of Enoch and Elijah prove a rapture of millions at this time.

I still await anyone to quote a scripture that clearly states God will take people to heaven before His wrath.

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Christ is in Heaven. Good to know someone is. So, 2 Cor. 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Where does that put those who have died in Christ? In Heaven.

Concerning John 7:34, Christ was speaking to a people that were not going to Heaven. John 7:32-33 " The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him. Then said Jesus unto them... " That is not His disciples as you claim.

I can say that because Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven, that you are wrong in saying no man is in Heaven. And, if God raptured Enoch and Elijah, then He can rapture whoever He wants.

Stranger