Rapture, Prophecy, Church, and the Nation of Israel- Last Generation

keras said:

As expected, you simply ignore every refutation I make. This is exactly as Paul tells 2 Timothy 4:4 People will stop their ears to the truth and believe fables.

Christ is in heaven now, sure, and He said to His disciples that where He was going, they couldn't come. John 7:34 They were all, except John, martyred. More worthy than them, are you? You cannot make the removal of Enoch and Elijah prove a rapture of millions at this time.

I still await anyone to quote a scripture that clearly states God will take people to heaven before His wrath.

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I still await anyone to quote a scripture that clearly says there will be no rapture of the Church into Heaven before the Tribulation.

Stranger

Stranger said:

I still await anyone to quote a scripture that clearly says there will be no rapture of the Church into Heaven before the Tribulation.

Stranger

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Obviously you are unable to prove your belief and have to resort to asking me to prove that a rapture won't happen. Which I can easily do.
On the Lord's Day of wrath, the next prophesied event, these scriptures prove that the Lord will protect His people, not remove them.

[SIZE=11pt]Protection for His people:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 23:4 Even if I walk through a valley of darkness, I will fear no harm, for You are with me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 41:3 For I the Lord, will hold your right hand, saying: fear not, I will help you.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the Lord, all you who obey Him, it may be that you will be sheltered on the Day of the Lord’s anger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Proverbs 3:25 Do not be afraid when fools are frightened or when destruction overtakes the wicked, for the Lord will be at your side on that Day. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 43:2 You will walk through fire and not be scorched, through flames, they will not burn you. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Daniel 3:25, Jeremiah 30:4-11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]1 Corinthians 10:13.... God will not test you beyond your powers and when the test comes, He will provide a way out to enable you to endure. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 9:10 The Lord does not abandon those who seek Him and trust in Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2 Peter 2:9 God knows how to rescue the godly from their trials.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 18:3 I shall call upon the Lord, then I will be made safe.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 31:23-24 The Lord protects the faithful. Be strong, all you whose hope is in the Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 64:10 The righteous rejoice, their refuge in the Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Zechariah 9:15-16 The Lord of hosts will protect His people...On that Day, He will save them, like a flock, for they are precious to Him. Isaiah 61:10[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 37:18-19 The Lord watches over the righteous, when times are bad, they will not be distressed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Job 22:30 He will deliver the innocent, because their hands are pure.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 91:1-16 ...He will rescue you, you will not fear the terrors abroad.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 121:1-8 Our help comes from the Lord, He will guard your life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 109:31 The Lord stands at the right hand of the poor and saves them from trials.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 51:16 I keep you covered under the shelter of My hand.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 97:10-12 He keeps His loyal servants safe and rescues them from the wicked.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Jeremiah 17:7-8 Blessed is anyone who trusts in the Lord, they will be like trees by a stream, when the heat comes it has nothing to fear. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Nahum 1:7 The Lord is a sure protection in times of trouble and cares for all those who make Him their refuge.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 60:4-5 To those who fear the Lord, He will show the way to escape from trouble.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Psalms 37:9 For evildoers will be destroyed, those who trust in the Lord will prosper in the Land.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 26:20 On that Day, I will come to your aid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Daniel 12:1 There will be a time of anguish, but at that time, Your people will be delivered, all those whose names are written in the Book of Life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]2 Thessalonians 1:7 ...to give you relief when the Lord Jesus comes in blazing fire.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion, the heavens and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people and a defence for Israel. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Isaiah 65:9b My chosen ones will take possession of the land, those who serve Me will live there. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Ecclesiasticus 34:13-17 Those who fear the Lord will live, for their trust in Him can keep them safe. The Lord keeps watch over those who love Him, He is their shield and support, a shelter from the scorching wind and the heat of the sun. He raises their spirits and gives healing, life and blessings. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Reference: Revised English Bible. [/SIZE]

keras

I have been asking you to prove a rapture won't happen all along. And you haven't.

Nothing in the Scriptures you provide prove the rapture won't happen. The Lord can protect His people by leaving them or removing them. So?

Stranger

Stranger said:

Christ is in Heaven. Good to know someone is. So, 2 Cor. 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." Where does that put those who have died in Christ? In Heaven.

Concerning John 7:34, Christ was speaking to a people that were not going to Heaven. John 7:32-33 " The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take him. Then said Jesus unto them... " That is not His disciples as you claim.

I can say that because Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven, that you are wrong in saying no man is in Heaven. And, if God raptured Enoch and Elijah, then He can rapture whoever He wants.

Stranger

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Yes, the souls of those who have died in the Lord are kept in heaven, not in a conscious state, awaiting the GWT judgement.
The martyrs souls are kept under the Altar and they are allowed to speak out, Rev 6:10 and at Jesus' Return, they receive the first resurrection. Rev 20:4

You are right, it was to the Pharisees He was speaking in John 7, but also to the Jewish people, in John 8:21. They cannot go to heaven and unless it is positively stated for anyone to go there, then we know it applies to everyone. Proved by John 3:13 and Rev 5:10

Enoch and Elijah are probably the two witnesses of Rev 11:3. They are killed and then taken back to heaven.
Making that special case to be a proof that millions will go to heaven is very specious and shows how desperate rapturists are find anything to support their false theory.

Stranger said:

keras

I have been asking you to prove a rapture won't happen all along. And you haven't.

Nothing in the Scriptures you provide prove the rapture won't happen. The Lord can protect His people by leaving them or removing them. So?

Stranger

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Absolutely nothing in scripture says God will take His people to heaven. That is proof it won't happen.
You are resorting to deviousness, next step is abuse and denigration, don't go that way, its sinful to judge a fellow Christian. James 4:11-12

keras said:

Yes, the souls of those who have died in the Lord are kept in heaven, not in a conscious state, awaiting the GWT judgement.
The martyrs souls are kept under the Altar and they are allowed to speak out, Rev 6:10 and at Jesus' Return, they receive the first resurrection. Rev 20:4

You are right, it was to the Pharisees He was speaking in John 7, but also to the Jewish people, in John 8:21. They cannot go to heaven and unless it is positively stated for anyone to go there, then we know it applies to everyone. Proved by John 3:13 and Rev 5:10

Enoch and Elijah are probably the two witnesses of Rev 11:3. They are killed and then taken back to heaven.
Making that special case to be a proof that millions will go to heaven is very specious and shows how desperate rapturists are find anything to support their false theory.

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Oh, so there are souls in heaven. What a break through that is. But you say they just arn't conscious. How silly.

I am right, good to know. But, John 8:21 doesn't speak to the disciples either. So why are you quoting it?

'Probably' means nothing. Enoch and Elijah were raptured into Heaven. That means men are in Heaven. That means God can rapture men in Heaven. If you want to call the rapture a 'special case' I don't mind. Seems special to me. But it also is Scriptural.

Stranger

keras said:

Absolutely nothing in scripture says God will take His people to heaven. That is proof it won't happen.
You are resorting to deviousness, next step is abuse and denigration, don't go that way, its sinful to judge a fellow Christian. James 4:11-12

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Absolutely nothing in Scripture says God will not take His people to Heaven. That is proof that He will take His people to Heaven.

I am resorting to your tactics. Call them as you will.

Stranger

Just read Ezekiel 34:11-15 and see exactly what God does intend for His people. Israel isn't mentioned in this passage so you won't be confused by thinking 'My sheep' applies to the Jews.
​Another prophecy is Isaiah 35:1-10 all about how God will ransom His people, who will enter into Zion with great joy.

Again Psalm 107:1-43 says 'those redeemed by the Lord will gather from every nation and will live in the fertile holy Land. Verse 43 says; whoever is wise will ponder these things......

These prophesies and many others tell how the Lord will protect, gather and settle His righteous people into His holy Land.
I suggest that you 'ponder these things', and really consider whether going to heaven is the right idea.

keras said:

Just read Ezekiel 34:11-15 and see exactly what God does intend for His people. Israel isn't mentioned in this passage so you won't be confused by thinking 'My sheep' applies to the Jews.
​Another prophecy is Isaiah 35:1-10 all about how God will ransom His people, who will enter into Zion with great joy.

Again Psalm 107:1-43 says 'those redeemed by the Lord will gather from every nation and will live in the fertile holy Land. Verse 43 says; whoever is wise will ponder these things......

These prophesies and many others tell how the Lord will protect, gather and settle His righteous people into His holy Land.
I suggest that you 'ponder these things', and really consider whether going to heaven is the right idea.

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Ez. 34 does pertain to Israel because it is the shepherds of Israel that are being addressed. Ez. 34:2 "Son of man, prophecy against the shepherds of Israel...." Which makes the flock the people of Israel.

Is. 35:1-10 speaks to the kingdom or millennial age which is on earth.

Ps. 107 can apply to any of the redeemed of the Lord.

God will settle His people, Israel, back into their land. Not the Church.

Stranger

Stranger said:

Ez. 34 does pertain to Israel because it is the shepherds of Israel that are being addressed. Ez. 34:2 "Son of man, prophecy against the shepherds of Israel...." Which makes the flock the people of Israel.

Is. 35:1-10 speaks to the kingdom or millennial age which is on earth.

Ps. 107 can apply to any of the redeemed of the Lord.

God will settle His people, Israel, back into their land. Not the Church.

Stranger

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You fail to read and understand the great message of the New Testament. The Church IS the new Israel. WE ARE the recipients of the promises of God to his People, the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16.
Insisting on a separation between true, righteous Israel and the Christians is wrong. God has no favorites and the Jewish State of Israel is surely not still a favorite of God, with their ungodly ways. Isaiah 22:14 and many other prophesies, says they will be virtually wiped out, only a remnant of Messianic Jews will be saved. Zechariah 14:8-9

Why is it so hard for you to see the great promises of God to His people, all Christians from every race and language, going to live in the holy Land in peace and prosperity, as God always intended to happen? Exactly as Isaiah 66:18b-21 prophesies.

keras said:

You fail to read and understand the great message of the New Testament. The Church IS the new Israel. WE ARE the recipients of the promises of God to his People, the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16.
Insisting on a separation between true, righteous Israel and the Christians is wrong. God has no favorites and the Jewish State of Israel is surely not still a favorite of God, with their ungodly ways. Isaiah 22:14 and many other prophesies, says they will be virtually wiped out, only a remnant of Messianic Jews will be saved. Zechariah 14:8-9

Why is it so hard for you to see the great promises of God to His people, all Christians from every race and language, going to live in the holy Land in peace and prosperity, as God always intended to happen? Exactly as Isaiah 66:18b-21 prophesies.

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I see that God has great promises for His people the Church and His people Israel. I just don't see them as the same body. Israel's inheritance may well be earthly, but the Church's inheritance is an heavenly one.

Stranger

Stranger said:

I see that God has great promises for His people the Church and His people Israel. I just don't see them as the same body. Israel's inheritance may well be earthly, but the Church's inheritance is an heavenly one.

Stranger

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That is because you are locked into the rapture theory, which must have Two People, Two Promises to work. Read carefully Galatians 6:14-16. WE are the Israel of God.
We are told that as Christian believers, our citizenship is kept in heaven. That is: our names are written in the Book of Life, but we remain on earth, awaiting the coming Kingdom, where we will be His priests. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21
Nowhere is it stated that God will take His people to heaven, there is no need for that and at the end of all things God will come down to dwell on earth, so heaven will once again be here as it was in Adams day. Revelation 21:3

Stranger said:

Not so fast. In the metaphor you speak of, Israel is not the Olive Tree. She is the branches also. Rom. 11:17 " And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

Both Israel and the Gentile Chrstians are branches. Both are a product of the tree; one natural, one wild. Therefore, just because Gentiles were grafted in, does not make them Israel.

How does seeing Israel and the Church as separate fall flat because of the condition of the people of Israel at this time?

Romans 11:25 says " For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." The Gentiles did not come into the branches of Israel. The Gentiles came into the root and fatness of the tree. The natural branches who are Israel, shall be grafted in again. Note the 'until' in Rom. 11:25. And Rom.11:24 says, " ...for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree, which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree."

The point is that when the amount of Gentiles believe and are saved that God has so appointed, then Israel's blindness is lifted. That doesn't make the believing Gentiles Israel.

Stranger

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Israel has always been the tree,and she was cut off from her own branches

Romans 11:24 "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"

Stranger said:

I see that God has great promises for His people the Church and His people Israel. I just don't see them as the same body. Israel's inheritance may well be earthly, but the Church's inheritance is an heavenly one.

Stranger

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Christ shall reign here,on earth,Israel is the Church,why must you seperate them?When did Israel cease being God's people(not Judah)which you all keep impying is God's only people,ie the Jew's ...

And not to say that Judah isn't.However one must believe in Christ,the fake Jew's(not all)don't, so please tell me how anyone that dosn't believe in Christ,is His people.....


When did God lose His people?He did'nt.....


More bluntly who is the Church and who is Israel since you'll want to seperate them?

After Israel wondered in the wilderness,where did they go?

Careful study of Scripture shows that the Lord is a God of order and in His plan for the redemption of His creation, He chose the Israelite peoples. At this stage of history, only He knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9
The Lord made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would be “great nations, as many as the sands of the sea, to be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.” Isaiah 43:10
Only the House of Judah [the Jews] are known at present, the other 10 tribes are lost to general knowledge, as God planned it. All twelve tribes will experience the great awakening as foretold by the prophets. Their blindness will pass away in the spiritual light that will come upon them regarding their identity and their responsibilities as the chosen people of God. Ezekiel 37:14, Romans 9:24-26
Suppose you are an Israelite? What of it? If I am saved, what difference will it make?
The Scriptures speak of far more than the salvation of the individual. Those who accept the free gift of salvation also have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel [good news] of the coming Kingdom of God. This is being done now and will be done on a greater scale by His people when they go back into the Promised Land. Ezekiel 39:27

The Bible presents us with a great volume of information, regarding the origins and history of the various races of mankind, the division of peoples into Israelite and Gentile nations and then the way of salvation and atonement for anyone who believes in Jesus. The detailed prophesies of what will happen, then His people’s work for the period leading up to the Return of Jesus and His Millennium Kingdom. Isaiah 49:8
The truth about the Lord’s plan for all who qualify to be Israelite’s is a thread which runs through the whole Bible, every type, promise, Covenant, and act of God, points to the final fulfilment of His planned establishment of a people, all true Christian believers who will live in His Land, as He originally intended. Isaiah 62:1-5, Amos 9:13-15

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, all who seek the Lord: consider the Rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you came. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah who gave you birth, when I called him, he was but one. I blessed him and made him many.
Romans 4:23-24 The words “counted to Abraham as righteousness” apply not only to Abraham, but also to us: our faith, too, is to be counted: our faith in Jesus, raised to life for our justification.

When we go through Scripture and see the many prophecies about the judgement of the nations and the blessings promised to the Israelites, we see that most are for the “last days”, that is, the period leading up to the end of this age and before the commencement of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus. That is for us Christians, upon whom, as Paul says: the end of the age has come. It is evident that God wants us to be aware of coming events, He sent prophet after prophet, telling in great detail how His plans will unfold. The signs of our times, confirms that their fulfilment is imminent.
The Lord, in His mercy, has given us warning of imminent world changing and shocking happenings. We should be aware of His plans – be ready to rejoice and praise Him for the redemption and restoration of His righteous Christian people.

keras said:

That is because you are locked into the rapture theory, which must have Two People, Two Promises to work. Read carefully Galatians 6:14-16. WE are the Israel of God.
We are told that as Christian believers, our citizenship is kept in heaven. That is: our names are written in the Book of Life, but we remain on earth, awaiting the coming Kingdom, where we will be His priests. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21
Nowhere is it stated that God will take His people to heaven, there is no need for that and at the end of all things God will come down to dwell on earth, so heaven will once again be here as it was in Adams day. Revelation 21:3

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I believe the rapture will occur because I believe Scripture teaches it. I did read Galatians 6:14-16. Two people are represented. Those in Christ and the Israel of God. It doesn't say that we the Church are the Israel of God.

You continue to ignore Enoch and Elijah and John 14:1-3. Indeed, once God creates a new heaven and earth, earth will be part of Heaven. Gee, where will all the people be then?

Stranger

Careful study of Scripture shows that the Lord is a God of order and in His plan for the redemption of His creation, He chose the Israelite peoples. At this stage of history, only He knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9
The Lord made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would be “great nations, as many as the sands of the sea, to be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.” Isaiah 43:10
Only the House of Judah [the Jews] are known at present, the other 10 tribes are lost to general knowledge, as God planned it. All twelve tribes will experience the great awakening as foretold by the prophets. Their blindness will pass away in the spiritual light that will come upon them regarding their identity and their responsibilities as the chosen people of God. Ezekiel 37:14, Romans 9:24-26

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I understand exactly what you're saying,just trying to get them to see that it's not a two people thing,as their rapture theory hinges on it.

Scripture tells me that you are either with God or against Him.........No Church in Heaven while so called Israel on the earth,not gonna happen.......

Stranger said:

I believe the rapture will occur because I believe Scripture teaches it. I did read Galatians 6:14-16. Two people are represented. Those in Christ and the Israel of God. It doesn't say that we the Church are the Israel of God.

You continue to ignore Enoch and Elijah and John 14:1-3. Indeed, once God creates a new heaven and earth, earth will be part of Heaven. Gee, where will all the people be then?

Stranger

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So are you saying Israel is not in Christ?

Genesis 35:11 "And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"


Where do you think these nations are today?