Can you lose your salvation?

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mjrhealth

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emekrus said:
Could someone who believes in justification by faith without works, explain what James was saying concerning the justification of Abraham by works and not faith only? What about the apostle Paul's injunction to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Then Peter's exhortation to be diligent to make our salvation sure. And he also said, if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the unrighteous appear? Then what did the apostle Paul mean when he said "we should fear lest we also be cut off (Romans)".

Then again, can someone help me explain why Jesus said "many shall say to me on that day, Lord did we not prophesy and cast out devils in your name? yet he will reply them, depart from me you workers of iniquity" (The folks he would be telling that ought to be saved initially--wouldn't you think?).

I want the individuals who believe in faith without works to help me answer these questions if their points of view is to hold water.

Emekrus.
Are you so blind to think that just becasue one calls oneself a christian that one is. ?? If you asked Christ ,what was it He said.

They worship me with there mouths but there hearts are far from me, as regards the rest" do you not have FAITH", it is what pleases God and how we are saved.
 

H. Richard

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I believe that religious people think that God will ignore their sinful nature if they are trying to be good and righteous by their own efforts. It is called being self-righteous. In other words they consider themselves to be righteous because of what they do.

The non-saved people can not seperate their sinful nature from their born-again spiritual nature since they do not have one. They just will not accept what Paul wrote in Romans 7. The child of God lives in a sinful body. The body is not made sinless. If it were then the person could be in heaven while still in their body.

The point is that no one will actualy read the last verse in Romans 7 and understand that the children of God are saved from their sinful bodies and all of it's sins.

Rom 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Long ago I realized the if I could be saved from all the sins of the world and not saved from the sins in my mind then they is no hope for me. Jesus has saved me from my sinful body.
 

justaname

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emekrus said:
Could someone who believes in justification by faith without works, explain what James was saying concerning the justification of Abraham by works and not faith only? What about the apostle Paul's injunction to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Then Peter's exhortation to be diligent to make our salvation sure. And he also said, if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the unrighteous appear? Then what did the apostle Paul mean when he said "we should fear lest we also be cut off (Romans)".

Then again, can someone help me explain why Jesus said "many shall say to me on that day, Lord did we not prophesy and cast out devils in your name? yet he will reply them, depart from me you workers of iniquity" (The folks he would be telling that ought to be saved initially--wouldn't you think?).

I want the individuals who believe in faith without works to help me answer these questions if their points of view is to hold water.

Emekrus.
Before I get too far I want to make sure we are speaking the same language. For the doctrine of justification this is what I understand it to mean:

Justification is an instantaneous legal act of God in which he (1) thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, and (2) declares us to be righteous in his sight.
Wayne Grudem Systematic Theology (pg. 723)

Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." - Galatians 3:11
 

justaname

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Phoneman777 said:
The Gospel I preach is simply this: "He that covereth his sin shall not prosper, but whosoever confesseth and forsaketh his sin shall have mercy."
Friend I am taken aback. Your gospel has no mention of the atonement, no mention of the resurrection, no mention of even Jesus Christ at all. This is not the gospel message, in fact this verse is not even from the same Testement where the gospel is presented.

Confessing sin does not save you. Only faith in Jesus Christ's death for the sin of the world, and belief in His resurrection brings about the salvation God offers. There is no other way.

This message you preach is not the gospel. I pray you realize this, and I am honestly concerned for your soul. You can PM me if you want to communicate without public display and we can converse that way if you like.
 

kerwin

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justaname said:
Friend I am taken aback. Your gospel has no mention of the atonement, no mention of the resurrection, no mention of even Jesus Christ at all. This is not the gospel message, in fact this verse is not even from the same Testement where the gospel is presented.

Confessing sin does not save you. Only faith in Jesus Christ's death for the sin of the world, and belief in His resurrection brings about the salvation God offers. There is no other way.

This message you preach is not the gospel. I pray you realize this, and I am honestly concerned for your soul. You can PM me if you want to communicate without public display and we can converse that way if you like.
Reducing the gospel to a sound byte is not the gospel. It serves its purpose when it is included in the whole but we should be careful not to use it to take away from the whole,

Your words and Phoneman777's are just sound bytes that are pieces of the gospel used to make a point about the gospel but not the whole gospel. I could critique the parts you did not include as you critiqued Phoneman777's but what good does it do if you know what I am saying is true but you just did not require it for the point you were making.

Jesus death is given power because he was tempted as we are but without sin. It is a point that neither you nor Phoneman7778 mentioned but I assume you know it. That is also why he was raised from the dead for the wages of sin is death and yet he suffered the wages he was not due. His righteousness cried for his resurrection because his death was unjust even though God allowed it for good of his other children. I assume I am repeating things you know for you also read the Writings.
 

kerwin

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I choose to emphasize faith for by faith we receive the Spirit to walk by and by faith we walk by the same Spirit. I see faith lacking in the church and so the members fall to strange doctrines because they lack the certainty that God can do anything and will do what is righteous for them.

Many believe they have to sin because it is human nature an so deny the Spirit. The Spirit is more powerful than our depraved human nature and it will overcome it when each of our faiths is complete.

Sin is a sign that one's faith is not yet complete.
 

justaname

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kerwin said:
Reducing the gospel to a sound byte is not the gospel. It serves its purpose when it is included in the whole but we should be careful not to use it to take away from the whole,

Your words and Phoneman777's are just sound bytes that are pieces of the gospel used to make a point about the gospel but not the whole gospel. I could critique the parts you did not include as you critiqued Phoneman777's but what good does it do if you know what I am saying is true but you just did not require it for the point you were making.

Jesus death is given power because he was tempted as we are but without sin. It is a point that neither you nor Phoneman7778 mentioned but I assume you know it. That is also why he was raised from the dead for the wages of sin is death and yet he suffered the wages he was not due. His righteousness cried for his resurrection because his death was unjust even though God allowed it for good of his other children. I assume I am repeating things you know for you also read the Writings.
I disagree. I used Scripture to give the definition of what the gospel is. Both Paul and Peter agree. Yet I have posted another thread concerning the gospel message and would like to invite you to share what you believe the gospel to be.

Thanks!
 

StanJ

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emekrus said:
Could someone who believes in justification by faith without works, explain what James was saying concerning the justification of Abraham by works and not faith only? What about the apostle Paul's injunction to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Then Peter's exhortation to be diligent to make our salvation sure. And he also said, if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the unrighteous appear? Then what did the apostle Paul mean when he said "we should fear lest we also be cut off (Romans)".

Then again, can someone help me explain why Jesus said "many shall say to me on that day, Lord did we not prophesy and cast out devils in your name? yet he will reply them, depart from me you workers of iniquity" (The folks he would be telling that ought to be saved initially--wouldn't you think?).

I want the individuals who believe in faith without works to help me answer these questions if their points of view is to hold water.

Emekrus.
James is dealing with our walk of faith and that it must demonstrate that we actually have true faith in Jesus by the good works we do. From the very beginning there was a false teaching within Christianity that said that Jesus did not represent a change in our lives from the respect that it could be observed outwardly and as such our carnal nature remained the same. All sin was forgiven despite what we did afterwards. this was supposed teaching that James was dealing with and not the actual process of salvation.
 

kerwin

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justaname said:
I disagree. I used Scripture to give the definition of what the gospel is. Both Paul and Peter agree. Yet I have posted another thread concerning the gospel message and would like to invite you to share what you believe the gospel to be.

Thanks!
The topic of this does deal the gospel as it refers to part it but being more specific about it may indeed be a different topic. I might continue this line of conversation in the new thread you started. Thank you!
 

laid renard

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Can you lose your salvation this thread asks. But what I have always wondered is can someone lose their salvation if they commit suicide ?
They may be sorry for what they are about to do and ask God to forgive them, and believe whole heartedly by faith that He will, so they proceed with the killing of themselves.
Can you lose your salvation this way ? I have not found anything about this in the bible. Why is the bible silent on this ? Or is it, but I missed it ?
Judas hung himself, but he was not saved, so he had no salvation in which to lose. So this passage does not clarify anything for me regarding this.
If you believe we can lose our salvation by committing suicide, then why does the word say if we as believers confess our sins, He will forgive us ?
I have always wondered about this.
 

kerwin

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laid renard said:
Can you lose your salvation this thread asks. But what I have always wondered is can someone lose their salvation if they commit suicide ?
They may be sorry for what they are about to do and ask God to forgive them, and believe whole heartedly by faith that He will, so they proceed with the killing of themselves.
Can you lose your salvation this way ? I have not found anything about this in the bible. Why is the bible silent on this ? Or is it, but I missed it ?
Judas hung himself, but he was not saved, so he had no salvation in which to lose. So this passage does not clarify anything for me regarding this.
If you believe we can lose our salvation by committing suicide, then why does the word say if we as believers confess our sins, He will forgive us ?
I have always wondered about this.
Asking forgiveness before one sins is a questionable activity in itself.

My bias is that I choose enable suicide.
 

mjrhealth

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have true faith in Jesus by the good works we do
Whosw aorks

Joh_5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Joh_10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not


Whe nwe walk with Chrisit in teh Spirit as He did, that teh works we do are of God Just as teh works that Christ did where of God, our works account for nothing.
 

Phoneman777

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StanJ said:
Illogical fallacies really don't work Phoneman.
Romans 6 Paul was referring to a particular group of people who were saying it was okay to maintain a sinful lifestyle even though they were saved and nobody that I've seen on this thread says it is okay to sin, however John does say in 1st John 2 that if we do sin we have an advocate in Jesus. As our only Advocate and Mediator, Jesus remind God that we have been saved from our sins by his sacrifice and that's why he is called both an advocate and a mediator. Now obviously this is metaphorical but it still works in the spiritual sense. Nobody is made perfect when they are saved but we do strive for perfection and that perfection is not in thd normal sense, but in the sense of being made whole.
Illogical fallacy? Hardly. When Paul says that we are to be "dead to sin", he means we are supposed to be "dead to its seductive, tantalizing power" in the same way an alcoholic lying in a coffin has no desire for a bottle of whiskey, because he is dead.

Through steadfast, continual practice of "denying self, taking up our Cross daily and following Jesus" the effects of Satan's temptations become less and less until finally they have no effect on us and he has to figure out something else with which to tempt us.
 

Phoneman777

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emekrus said:
Could someone who believes in justification by faith without works, explain what James was saying concerning the justification of Abraham by works and not faith only? What about the apostle Paul's injunction to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Then Peter's exhortation to be diligent to make our salvation sure. And he also said, if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the unrighteous appear? Then what did the apostle Paul mean when he said "we should fear lest we also be cut off (Romans)".

Then again, can someone help me explain why Jesus said "many shall say to me on that day, Lord did we not prophesy and cast out devils in your name? yet he will reply them, depart from me you workers of iniquity" (The folks he would be telling that ought to be saved initially--wouldn't you think?).

I want the individuals who believe in faith without works to help me answer these questions if their points of view is to hold water.

Emekrus.
Martin Luther put it this way:

Paul and James aren't fighting against each other, they stand back-to-back fighting the errors of "legalism" and "license". Paul made clear to Legalists that their best efforts can't earn them one foot off the ground and James made clear to the practitioners of License that those who consider obedience "optional" will not make it either.

The simple message of their testimony, taken together, is that "we are saved by grace but we are judged by our works because works is the evidence that we've been saved by grace."
 

mjrhealth

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denying self,
If one was denying self, one would not be following a religion, one would have faith in Christ one would be doing the fathers will not seeking to save him self by his works, one would give himself completelt over to Jesus and nor be concerned with religion and its problems, one would seek the face of our Lord pleasing Him with faith, one would not be denying the power of God as so many do, this topic a perfect example. There are men and women all over this world giving themselves over to strange religion, sleeipng on wooden beds, wearing sack cloth, living in monasteries and teh such, thinking in by teh wisdom of man, that they are pleasing to God because the yare denying themseklves yet all they are doing is the works of the flesh, pleasing to the flesh, being seeing to be doing thinking that somehow that will save them. It is by Grace we are saved through faith, not by works so none can boast, yet all over these forums are men boasting of how they will lsave them selves by their works.
 

Phoneman777

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kerwin said:
Asking forgiveness before one sins is a questionable activity in itself.

My bias is that I choose enable suicide.
True Story:

When the popes had depleted the coffers and money needed to be raised for the building of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, they commissioned John Tetzel, and others like him, to ride through the European countryside with an entourage going from village to village offering for sale "Indulgences" aka "Certificates of Forgiveness" available for purchase on the spot which guaranteed the bearer a post-purgatory entrance to heaven or release of their dearly departed from Purgatory to heaven. The chests of Indulgence money poured into the Vatican.

On one such occasion, Tetzel was approached by a gentleman and asked if he had the power to offer an Indulgence to cover "sins in intention" or "sins one intended to commit at a later date". Tetzel assured him he had full power and authority from Rome to do just that. The gentleman said that in that case, he wanted to exact some slight revenge against someone, but not take his life, and the two began to haggle over a price until finally the amount of 30 crowns was agreed upon, Tetzel signed the certificate, and shortly thereafter, he left to journey to the next village.

While on his way, the gentleman and some accomplices ambushed Tetzel and beat the tar out of him and stole the rich chest of Indulgence money. Tetzel went straight to the authorities and had the man dragged into court and as the Judge listened to Tetzel's testimony, his indignation against the gentleman began to boil over...until at the last the gentleman pulled from his pocket the Indulgence certificate signed by John Tetzel himself and presented it before the court.

The Judge was so outraged at Tetzel that he threw out the case.
 

Phoneman777

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laid renard said:
Can you lose your salvation this thread asks. But what I have always wondered is can someone lose their salvation if they commit suicide ?
They may be sorry for what they are about to do and ask God to forgive them, and believe whole heartedly by faith that He will, so they proceed with the killing of themselves.
Can you lose your salvation this way ? I have not found anything about this in the bible. Why is the bible silent on this ? Or is it, but I missed it ?
Judas hung himself, but he was not saved, so he had no salvation in which to lose. So this passage does not clarify anything for me regarding this.
If you believe we can lose our salvation by committing suicide, then why does the word say if we as believers confess our sins, He will forgive us ?
I have always wondered about this.
Suicide is almost always something that ends the life of a lost person because it is the strongest evidence that one has lost all hope and faith - and "without faith it is impossible to please God" as well as take hold of salvation. However, weak moments come to all believers and God is ultimately the Judge. There is only one suicide in the Bible in which the victim died in faith and service to God - Samson. But, as in the case of the only deathbed conversion in the Bible (thief on the Cross), there is one and only one "good suicide" - so that none lose hope, but also so that none dare presume.
 

Phoneman777

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justaname said:
Friend I am taken aback. Your gospel has no mention of the atonement, no mention of the resurrection, no mention of even Jesus Christ at all. This is not the gospel message, in fact this verse is not even from the same Testement where the gospel is presented.

Confessing sin does not save you. Only faith in Jesus Christ's death for the sin of the world, and belief in His resurrection brings about the salvation God offers. There is no other way.

This message you preach is not the gospel. I pray you realize this, and I am honestly concerned for your soul. You can PM me if you want to communicate without public display and we can converse that way if you like.
Please re-read the bold type: the part about "shall have mercy". We're all mostly "meat" Christians, and therefore, it should not be necessary to spell out all the means, ways, and conditions upon which those three words are made possible to us - namely the Plan of Salvation.

I most certainly do preach the Gospel. You preach "Gospel Lite", which says "just believe". Well, belief without action is useless, as James makes clear. If Christ does not reside in the heart, then "apart from Me ye can do nothing" accept live in sin.

If Christ resides in the heart, then "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me" which includes living an obedient life.

All this is summed up in Romans 6:14-16 KJV

There is no Spiritual Switzerland.
 

StanJ

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Phoneman777 said:
Illogical fallacy? Hardly. When Paul says that we are to be "dead to sin", he means we are supposed to be "dead to its seductive, tantalizing power" in the same way an alcoholic lying in a coffin has no desire for a bottle of whiskey, because he is dead.

Through steadfast, continual practice of "denying self, taking up our Cross daily and following Jesus" the effects of Satan's temptations become less and less until finally they have no effect on us and he has to figure out something else with which to tempt us.
Paul is talking about a lifestyle of sin, and that because we are saved by grace we no longer live in the daily effects of a sinful lifestyle but in a daily state of being born again.
Yes, our goal is to deny ourselves and put Jesus on the throne of our heart and in that way walk in the spirit of Grace and not bondage.
 

justaname

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Phoneman777 said:
Please re-read the bold type: the part about "shall have mercy". We're all mostly "meat" Christians, and therefore, it should not be necessary to spell out all the means, ways, and conditions upon which those three words are made possible to us - namely the Plan of Salvation.

I most certainly do preach the Gospel. You preach "Gospel Lite", which says "just believe". Well, belief without action is useless, as James makes clear. If Christ does not reside in the heart, then "apart from Me ye can do nothing" accept live in sin.

If Christ resides in the heart, then "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me" which includes living an obedient life.

All this is summed up in Romans 6:14-16 KJV

There is no Spiritual Switzerland.
I did make a thread about this topic. Fell free to copy and paste it over there or rephrase it if you like. I will respond to it over there!

Shalom!