Can you lose your salvation?

emekrus said:

Could someone who believes in justification by faith without works, explain what James was saying concerning the justification of Abraham by works and not faith only? What about the apostle Paul's injunction to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

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Generally, when the Bible talks about works, it is referring to works of the flesh -- either of the law or of "good" works and deeds. Obedience to the 10 commandments, for instance.

But salvation is by a work of our spirit -- a decision and a "calling on the name of the Lord" for salvation (Ro 10:13). Specifically, it is a prayer like Job 33:26-28 speaks about. "[Man} shall pray to God and find favor with Him ... And if any say, 'I have sinned and perverted that which was right and it profited me not,' He will save his soul from going into the pit and his life shall see the light." That is very specific, isn't it. Elihu told Job to pray a prayer like that to God and "see the light."

Well, in Job 42:5-6, 10 Job speaks a prayer like that to God and God cleanses him and gives him a new life. That's the way it works throughout the Bible; and, starting with Pentecost, the "light" received was Christ's Spirit.

And you know what emekrus? All denominations who call themselves "Christian" do so because they believe the gospel. The difference is that each of them has a different way to put their faith in Christ. There's baptism, sacraments, "belief alone," etc. You get the idea. But as someone has already said, most of them "have a name that lives but are dead" (Rev 3:1). They did not OBEY the gospel by repenting to God in the name of Christ for forgiveness of sin and new life.

So you are wise to link salvation with works as does James -- but it is spiritual works. When I prayed to God, I didn't so much as move my lips. It's between you and God, right? And God was favorable to my prayer as He was to Cornelius's prayers when he was unsaved heard my prayer and He saved me!

skypair

StanJ said:

Paul is talking about a lifestyle of sin, and that because we are saved by grace we no longer live in the daily effects of a sinful lifestyle but in a daily state of being born again.
Yes, our goal is to deny ourselves and put Jesus on the throne of our heart and in that way walk in the spirit of Grace and not bondage.

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Do you mean by saying "we no longer live in the daily effects of sin" that "we no longer come under condemnation for our daily sin"? Because Paul says, "there is now therefore no condemnation to them...who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit". I'm sure we both agree that it is impossible to simultaneously follow after the Spirit and after the flesh and James refers to the man who does such a thing as "wavering" and "doubleminded" and has absolutely no hope to receive eternal life from God, according to James 1:6-8 KJV.

justaname said:

I did make a thread about this topic. Fell free to copy and paste it over there or rephrase it if you like. I will respond to it over there!

Shalom!

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thanks

Phoneman777 said:

True Story:

When the popes had depleted the coffers and money needed to be raised for the building of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, they commissioned John Tetzel, and others like him, to ride through the European countryside with an entourage going from village to village offering for sale "Indulgences" aka "Certificates of Forgiveness" available for purchase on the spot which guaranteed the bearer a post-purgatory entrance to heaven or release of their dearly departed from Purgatory to heaven. The chests of Indulgence money poured into the Vatican.

On one such occasion, Tetzel was approached by a gentleman and asked if he had the power to offer an Indulgence to cover "sins in intention" or "sins one intended to commit at a later date". Tetzel assured him he had full power and authority from Rome to do just that. The gentleman said that in that case, he wanted to exact some slight revenge against someone, but not take his life, and the two began to haggle over a price until finally the amount of 30 crowns was agreed upon, Tetzel signed the certificate, and shortly thereafter, he left to journey to the next village.

While on his way, the gentleman and some accomplices ambushed Tetzel and beat the tar out of him and stole the rich chest of Indulgence money. Tetzel went straight to the authorities and had the man dragged into court and as the Judge listened to Tetzel's testimony, his indignation against the gentleman began to boil over...until at the last the gentleman pulled from his pocket the Indulgence certificate signed by John Tetzel himself and presented it before the court.

The Judge was so outraged at Tetzel that he threw out the case.

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Thank.

I dropped a couple words out of the second sentence and did not review it before posting. It should have been "My bias is that I choose not to enable suicide:. Tezel enabled his own robbery and abuse.

Phoneman777 said:

Do you mean by saying "we no longer live in the daily effects of sin" that "we no longer come under condemnation for our daily sin"? Because Paul says, "there is now therefore no condemnation to them...who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit". I'm sure we both agree that it is impossible to simultaneously follow after the Spirit and after the flesh and James refers to the man who does such a thing as "wavering" and "doubleminded" and has absolutely no hope to receive eternal life from God, according to James 1:6-8 KJV.

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Pretty much, but we cannot ignore sin that we commit, we have to recognize it and confess it as sin. Confession simply means to agree with God about what is sin in our lives. 1 John 1:9

Do you mean by saying "we no longer live in the daily effects of sin" that "we no longer come under condemnation for our daily sin"?

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Every man sins, the issue is whether you accept the work Christ has done which includes condeming sin to teh flesh

This bit

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

fir Christ condmend sin to the flesh so we could walk freely in the spirit, any man who is condmened by his sins is not walking in grace but after the flesh, for the flesh will aleays condenm you. And it is in tha tregard that we can now stand befor the throne of God, not because of what any of us can do for we ourselves can do nothing, but because of what Jesus did, far to may trying to prove themselves worthy.

Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Who is your faith in, yourself to undermine God or God who gave us His son to redeem us back to Himself???

StanJ said:

Pretty much, but we cannot ignore sin that we commit, we have to recognize it and confess it as sin. Confession simply means to agree with God about what is sin in our lives. 1 John 1:9

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Confession alone is not enough to obtain mercy, according to Proverbs 28:13 KJV. We must forsake our sins, as well, which of course does not mean we "forget" them each time we finish committing them - it means we "leave them behind" or "cease from them".

Underline: His call, His will for you

Rom 11:28-29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

2 Tim 1:9 He who has given us life and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his will and the grace which has been given to us in Yeshua The Messiah before the time of the world,

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

StanJ said:

Pretty much, but we cannot ignore sin that we commit, we have to recognize it and confess it as sin. Confession simply means to agree with God about what is sin in our lives. 1 John 1:9

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Even more, Stan, confession 1) means seeking God's help with that sin; and, 2) since we are forgiven all our sins in heaven, it is praying God to have mercy regarding the consequences of our sin here in the earth. Regarding (2), it is like doing to the person you have wronged and asking them for mercy. That is exactly what God would want you to do, also, right?

skypair

Phoneman777 said:

Confession alone is not enough to obtain mercy, according to Proverbs 28:13 KJV. We must forsake our sins, as well, which of course does not mean we "forget" them each time we finish committing them - it means we "leave them behind" or "cease from them".

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This is good, phoneman! As I told Stan, one of the reasons we confess our sins (1Jn 1:9) is to ask for God's help in coming to the place where we can do as you say — repent or turn from them. There are many sins that are besetting sins .. not easily dealt with .. especially those we commit against our "temple," our bodies. For years I confessed to God my sin of smoking. God had already worked on my conscience and heart through the conviction of His Spirit. He had already worked on me through my parents and adults who told me not to smoke and it wasn't good for my body. Then I lost my health such that I couldn't fly in the USAF anymore.

Thankfully, God gave me, at that point, the power (2Cor 7:11-19) to repent (quit) and to get healthy again. I now am retired from 38 years of flying for USAF, Braniff, Eastern, and FedEx and VERY thankful for God's helping me to quit smoking .. and for the mercy He showed to me in that I didn't, instead, die for my sin (as my mother did).

But it all began when, at the age of 16, I repented of my "thoughts" (changed my mind) and "ways" (changed my heart, my soul, Isa 55:7) turning from my old man and becoming a "new creation" in Christ Jesus. Do you see it? There are actually 3 kinds of repentance: change of mind or spirit .. change of heart or soul (which saves eternally) .. and change of behavior (which saves from judgment in this life).

skypair

Underline:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him (and continues to repent of their sins minute by minute) shall not perish but have eternal life.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed (and who continues to repent of their sins minute by minute), you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Rev 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

Heb 13:8 said:

Underline:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him (and continues to repent of their sins minute by minute) shall not perish but have eternal life.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed (and who continues to repent of their sins minute by minute), you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Rev 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

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I assume you are addressing me. But I never said "repent minute by minute." What Paul did say in connection with repenting is "I die daily." (1Cor 15:31)

Now notice that in Jn 3:16, it doesn't say "whosoever believes Him." It says "whosoever believes IN Him," right? Likewise with the gospel. It is possible to believe the gospel without believing in it .. and so to "believe in vain." There are many who are of Sardis, the Reform traditions (Reform, Presbie, Lutheran, etc.) including Arminians who were "spin offs" (CoC, Methodists, AoG, etc.), who "have a name that lives but are dead." (Rev 3:1) They maintain that they are saved because they believe the gospel and they believe Christ.

skypair

Underline: If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets.

1 Cor 15:12-19 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Luke 16:27-31 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

Acts 23:8 The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.

​Rom 10:9-10 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Please make your point.

skypair

Phoneman777 said:

There is a line that we can cross which after leaves both the sinner and the apostate beyond salvation. We need not concern ourselves at all with the location of this line - simply by abiding in Jesus minute by minute, moment by moment, we are safe. If we slip up, there's grace to cover our sin, only if we immediately heed the pleadings of Jesus to repent and reestablish our connection to the Vine. The longer we refuse, the more hardened our hearts become, the more difficult it becomes to repent, until finally, after we cross that unseen line, that's all folks.

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Underline: Point. Why does non-osas believe in the resurrection and that all sins are covered, yet we still need to save ourselves.

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

Heb 13:8 said:

Underline: Point. Why does non-osas believe in the resurrection and that all sins are covered, yet we still need to save ourselves.

Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

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Do you know what it is? They have only changed their minds about Christ .. they have not changed their hearts. This is a very serious matter because Calvinists do it too. Both OSAS and non-OSAS think that because they believe in Christ, they are saved. But they only believe with their minds, their spirits. The soul is left unmoved from the deceitful heart of sin and from the guilt of sin in their consciences. That is to say, they have belief but no faith .. or put another way, they both have faith in their belief, not in Christ.

In order to have faith, one must repent to God putting off the old man and asking for salvation in Christ. It's often called a "sinner's prayer." It is "call[ing] on the name of the Lord," Ro 10:13, for salvation. When one's Sacrifice has been accepted with God, He forgives and sends His Holy Spirit into that person securing eternal, never-ending life — OSAS. (Acts 2:38)

Here's what's really interesting about this. The Arminians saw that "salvation" made no difference in the lives of Calvinists so they decided that one could lose one's salvation. The response to that thought was, "Well, we'll serve Christ "minute by minute" so we don't "cross that unseen line" of reprobation.

skypair

skypair said:

Do you know what it is? They have only changed their minds about Christ .. they have not changed their hearts.

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Underline: Exactly. Eternal security comes with a change of heart.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."

1 Cor 2:10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

Phoneman777 said:

Confession alone is not enough to obtain mercy, according to Proverbs 28:13 KJV. We must forsake our sins, as well, which of course does not mean we "forget" them each time we finish committing them - it means we "leave them behind" or "cease from them".

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That is implied in the words "he will cleanse you of all unrighteousness".

skypair said:

This is good, phoneman! As I told Stan, one of the reasons we confess our sins (1Jn 1:9) is to ask for God's help in coming to the place where we can do as you say — repent or turn from them. There are many sins that are besetting sins .. not easily dealt with .. especially those we commit against our "temple," our bodies. For years I confessed to God my sin of smoking. God had already worked on my conscience and heart through the conviction of His Spirit. He had already worked on me through my parents and adults who told me not to smoke and it wasn't good for my body. Then I lost my health such that I couldn't fly in the USAF anymore.

Thankfully, God gave me, at that point, the power (2Cor 7:11-19) to repent (quit) and to get healthy again. I now am retired from 38 years of flying for USAF, Braniff, Eastern, and FedEx and VERY thankful for God's helping me to quit smoking .. and for the mercy He showed to me in that I didn't, instead, die for my sin (as my mother did).

But it all began when, at the age of 16, I repented of my "thoughts" (changed my mind) and "ways" (changed my heart, my soul, Isa 55:7) turning from my old man and becoming a "new creation" in Christ Jesus. Do you see it? There are actually 3 kinds of repentance: change of mind or spirit .. change of heart or soul (which saves eternally) .. and change of behavior (which saves from judgment in this life).

skypair

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Great testimony, my friend. Always good to hear when the saints gain the victory over besetting sins. There is a prevailing error that claims grace is a license for us to keep on sinning without fear of losing our eternal reward. However, Jesus taught otherwise. "Go and sin no more" is what He commanded to those to whom He extended His free gift of grace.

kerwin said:

That is implied in the words "he will cleanse you of all unrighteousness".

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The question boils down to this: Does Salvation change (cleanse) me, or does it just change (cleanse) God's opinion of sin in me?

OSAS is just a vain attempt to obtain by dead faith that which only can be obtained by living faith - eternal life.