Love your enemies

Stranger · Nov 27, 2016

logabe said:
Why didn't Jesus practice what He preached? According to you, Jesus should have
destroyed all of the Romans. Why didn't He do it? Why didn't He go to war and win
a great battle for the Jews? I'm sure He could defeat them.

Logabe

Jesus did and does practice what He preaches. Had Israel received Him as their Messiah He would have brought in the Kingdom and destroyed not just the Roman Empire but all nations against Him. He will still do that at a future date when Israel turns back to Him as their Messiah. In the mean time the Church is being called out of the world. And Christ and the World are in constant conflict and war.

So, as I said, Christ has brought peace between the individual and God. But there is no peace with the believer between him and the world. Constant conflict and division.

Stranger

junobet · Nov 27, 2016

Stranger said:
The dove, olive branch, and rainbow doesn't take away the effect of the flood which was the destruction of the whole human race except for 8 souls. And the dove, olive branch, and rainbow doesn't take away from the fact of the death penalty being instituted by God. All are true. Your scenario of last man standing is fanciful. The taking of a life by man for murder is itself not murder. It is ordained of God who has the authority to give life and take it. Thus your link is broken. Your error is that you see the death penalty as murder. You see that which is ordained of God as a sin.

I see the flood in light of the rainbow and the death penalty in light of Christ, in whose light all of the Bible needs to be read. It's His New Covenant that we live under.

Christ wasn't forgiving them for exercising the death penalty. He was forgiving them for crucifying the innocent Son of God, in their ignorance. That Christ recognized the death penalty from God is seen when He told Pilate, " Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above..." (John 19:11)

All rulers of this world only have power because God lets them have power, including the worst despots and dictators. It is self-evident that God allows evil to happen. But this does not mean He approves of it.

So you don't hate your father, mother, children, etc. , as Christ commands in Luke 14:26. And your reason for rejecting that as literal is what? You said earlier that Luke 14:26 means we are to put Christ first above all others. And I agree. But Christ did say we are to hate our family. Just as Christ said we are to love our enemies. According to your rules of interpretation one should be able to say Christ doesn't mean to love your enemies. You interpret literally when it fits your pacifism. When it doesn't, you draw another meaning out of it.

As I said: when it comes to what and what not to read literally, context is everything. And while I think “hate” is obviously used as an hyperbole in Luke 14:26, unlike many evangelicals I certainly don’t kid myself into thinking that the NT promotes 'family values' much, however much I’d like it if it did.

Again, I'm interpreting Matt. 5-7 literally. You just don't agree with my eschatology.

I’ve heard of many exotic eschatologies, but I never met anybody before, who claims that the Sermon of the Mount just depicts the rules for the future 1000 year kingdom of Christ and that we don’t need to bother with it yet. Probably because it is so very obvious from the text that this is not so.
Most Christians I know – whatever their particular eschatological views may be – think that our hopes for ultimate righteousness in an eschatological future gives us hope and let’s us strive for righteousness right here and now.

Concerning Cornelius you ignore him completely. Based on your rules of interpretation, you can do that. Cornelius was not a pacifist. He was a soldier. But he was a Christian. Therefore you must ignore him. He is contrary to the laws of Christ so there must be some mistake there. Or he must not to be taken literally either.

I did not ignore Cornelius completely, I just don’t think you’ve got much of a leg to stand on in him. The Bible also tells us about slave-owners who were Christian. That doesn’t mean that it is truly Christian to approve of slavery. Alas, I have anawful inkling that in your part of the world some may still disagree with this. And indeed they could make a far better Biblical case for slavery than you can make for the military. So how come Christianity sparked the abolition movement? Because Christian faith grows like a Mustard Tree: These Christians began reading the Bible with the double-commandment of love as leading guide and enough God-given empathy for their fellow-men in their heart to realize that it is indeed deeply wrong to enslave others.
Reading the Bible guided by this Spirit, you’ll also realize that it is deeply wrong to kill complete strangers in a war, just because they happen to sit in the opposite trench. You’ll realize that God created and loves your enemies as much as he loves you. Just as Jesus Christ sees the best in you, you’ll see them in a new light and you will love them as you love yourself.

You must remember that when Jesus Christ came the first time, He did not come in the full revelation of Who He is. He came cloaked in humility and lowliness and hid to the world who He really was. But when He comes back the 2nd time, it is as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. The world will see Him as He really is. Many understood correctly that the Messiah was a warrior King. But they could not understand how He must suffer also. (1Peter 1:10-11) " Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." And as I said before, then you will see Isaiah 63 fulfilled.

Yes, I see. Pacifism is the test of your Christianity. Martyrdom is not something I seek. But if it comes, it will come only because I am a Christian. Not because I am a pacifist.

What do you mean it ain't literal by the Bibles letters? Yes repentance is involved in being a Christian. What does that have to do with the Bible being without error if it addresses something in the scientific, or historical world?

Stranger

Yes, I’ve already noticed that just like the Jews who expected a great warrior you are not satisfied with the kind of Messiah we got. But here you go: Christ is not a deceiver who tricked us into wrong beliefs about His true nature by putting on false humility. And it’s His humility, self-giving love and grace that we are told to emulate:
“If there is any encouragement in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any compassion and mercy, 2 then fulfill my joy and be like-minded, having the same love, being in unity with one mind. 3 Let nothing be done out of strife or conceit, but in humility let each esteem the other better than himself. 4 Let each of you look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Let this mind be in you all, which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
7 But He emptied Himself,
taking upon Himself the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in the form of a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death,
even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.[a]
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but so much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the One working in you, both to will and to do His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmuring and disputing, 15 that you may be blameless and harmless, sons of God, without fault, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, in which you shine as lights in the world."

(Phillippians 2:1-14)

Yes, I see. Pacifism is the test of your Christianity. Martyrdom is not something I seek. But if it comes, it will come only because I am a Christian. Not because I am a pacifist.

Pacifism, seeking social justice, showing solidarity with the poor and oppressed … are consequences of being in union with Christ. And yes, the NT makes it entirely obvious that as Christians we are called to be martyrs, not killers.

Stranger · Nov 28, 2016

junobet

Did God institute the death penalty or not? Gen. 9:6?

Does God 'let' people have power? Or does He appoint people to power?

Context is nothing to you. Your pacifism is your guide to interpretation. There is nothing in the context of Luke 14:26 to indicate that 'hate' is a hyperbole, other than your pacifism.

My eschatological view is not new. And I don't disregard the Sermon on the Mount. I just recognize its purpose. Strange you should say I disregard the Sermon on the Mount when you disregard most of the Bible.

Yes you do disregard Cornelius. You have given no explanation for his being a soldier and a Christian. You simply shift the topic now to slavery.

Ah yes, slavery. We can always demonize someone with that. And, you are right. The Bible supports slavery. Those of the abolition movement had to ignore the Bible. The Christianity you speak of, the yankee version, that sparked abolitionism, was a watered down Christianity, a social gospel. A feel good fellow man gospel. Just like yours. We in the South are called the Bible Belt because we hold to the Bible as the Word of God and our guide.

War is of God. And if one goes to war it is not wrong for him to kill in battle. War is not personal. It is judicial, of God. I see no reason to accept your 'loving your enemies' when you refuse to 'hate' your family.

You ignored the whole point of 1 Peter 1:10-11. That point is that it is correct that the Jews expected a Warrior King. And Christ is that Warrior King. Yet we don't see Him now in that role fully. But we will. What will you say then?

I wonder why you didn't say 'war' is a product of union with Christ. I can be a witness and still be a soldier in the military. I can regret having to kill but know it is my job before God and the country I live in. Again, war is not personal.

Stranger

junobet · Nov 28, 2016

Stranger said:
junobet

Did God institute the death penalty or not? Gen. 9:6?

Does God 'let' people have power? Or does He appoint people to power?

Context is nothing to you. Your pacifism is your guide to interpretation. There is nothing in the context of Luke 14:26 to indicate that 'hate' is a hyperbole, other than your pacifism.

My eschatological view is not new. And I don't disregard the Sermon on the Mount. I just recognize its purpose. Strange you should say I disregard the Sermon on the Mount when you disregard most of the Bible.

Yes you do disregard Cornelius. You have given no explanation for his being a soldier and a Christian. You simply shift the topic now to slavery.

Ah yes, slavery. We can always demonize someone with that. And, you are right. The Bible supports slavery. Those of the abolition movement had to ignore the Bible. The Christianity you speak of, the yankee version, that sparked abolitionism, was a watered down Christianity, a social gospel. A feel good fellow man gospel. Just like yours. We in the South are called the Bible Belt because we hold to the Bible as the Word of God and our guide.

War is of God. And if one goes to war it is not wrong for him to kill in battle. War is not personal. It is judicial, of God. I see no reason to accept your 'loving your enemies' when you refuse to 'hate' your family.

You ignored the whole point of 1 Peter 1:10-11. That point is that it is correct that the Jews expected a Warrior King. And Christ is that Warrior King. Yet we don't see Him now in that role fully. But we will. What will you say then?

I wonder why you didn't say 'war' is a product of union with Christ. I can be a witness and still be a soldier in the military. I can regret having to kill but know it is my job before God and the country I live in. Again, war is not personal.

Stranger

I’m well aware that Christians in the American Bible-Belt hold many theological and political convictions that European Christians such as myself don’t share. But I sincerely hope that only a tiny minority of Christians in the Bible-Belt are white supremacists who think the Bible calls for the reintroduction of slavery.

I should also hope that the majority of Christians in the Bible Belt don’t think of Christ as some sort of warrior king. Where in 1 Peter 1:10-11 did you get that idea from? This passage speaks of the prophets predicting the glory obtained by Christ’s suffering on the cross, not the kind of glory a military leader expects. The latter would be the glory of the flesh being mentioned in 1 Peter 1:24-25. And if you read on you’ll find that the author of 1 Peter very much stuck to the Sermon on the Mount, when he says that we are not repay evil for evil and are to seek peace and pursue it. In fact 1 Peter tells us that Jesus even preached to those imprisoned spirits who were disobedient in Noah’s day. (1 Peter 3:8-22). So I don’t know which martial prophecies about Christ will be read in your church this Christmas, but over here we’ll be reading Isaiah 9:6:

“For unto us a child is born,
unto us a son is given,
and the government shall be upon his shoulder.
And his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.“

And then we’ll move on to the nativity story in Luke that has the angels singing “Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace, and good will toward men.” (Luke 2:14)

So, all in all it seems you and I believe in a very different kind of Saviour: you believe in a some ominous God of war and revenge, I believe in the Prince of Peace, that the Gospel tells us about, you know, the guy who answered our human evil by a new covenant of grace and who expects us to follow His example. We’ll see on judgement day who of us got it right. Until then I shall be praying for you.

Stranger · Nov 29, 2016

junobet

I don't know of anyone calling for the reintroduction of African slavery. I simply agreed with you that the Bible supports slavery. It cannot be used to demonize slavery. Slavery is a perfect description of the human race. Even now you are a slave...arn't you? (1Cor. 6:20) " For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." And (Acts 20:28) "...to feed the church of God,which he hath purchased with his own blood." Arn't you bought and paid for?

Concerning 'warrior King', I was using your terminology in your reply #62. And, as I explained already, in (Is.63) you have the Messiah destroying the nations that are against Him and God. And the Old Testament is filled with these promises. See also (Ps. 2) "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us....the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee...I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance...Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel...Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little...."

So, the 'glory that follows' in (1Peter 1:10-11) involves Christ forcefully subduing the nations and setting Himself as King. Which means the Jews were correct in expecting such a Messiah. But they did not understand how He also would be suffering, as even their own prophets didn't understand. It is not 'one or the other'. Christ is both. He is the suffering Servant, and He is the Warrior King.

I have said before concerning the Sermon on the Mount that I do not ignore it. Application can certainly be made for we who are Christian because we have the Holy Spirit and we can see at times the Spirit of God in us fulfilling these same things. But, that is true also with the Mosaic Law. Because we have the Holy Spirit, and the Law is from God, then we see at times the Law accomplished in our conduct. Yet, we are not under the Law. The Law is not given to be over the Church. And neither is the Sermon on the Mount.

I try to see our Saviour as the Bible declares Him to be, both Old and New Testaments. I recognize we are under the New Covenant. But the terms of the New Covenant are not the Sermon on the Mount.

Stranger

junobet · Nov 29, 2016

Stranger said:
Concerning 'warrior King', I was using your terminology in your reply #62. And, as I explained already, in (Is.63) you have the Messiah destroying the nations that are against Him and God. And the Old Testament is filled with these promises. See also (Ps. 2) "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us....the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee...I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance...Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel...Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little...."

From a Jewish point of view I am a heathen and Christ did indeed get me for His inheritance guiding me with His shepherd’s rod. And while the Kings of these earth and the soldiers in their service still rebel against the Lord and His commandments to love and do justice, I trust the Bible when it tells me that eventually ”All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name” (Psalm 86:9) Of course you’ll have to read the Bible very thoroughly to find that all these enemies the Lord supposedly destroys come back to worship Him, often just a couple of verses later. ;-)

So, the 'glory that follows' in (1Peter 1:10-11) involves Christ forcefully subduing the nations and setting Himself as King. Which means the Jews were correct in expecting such a Messiah. But they did not understand how He also would be suffering, as even their own prophets didn't understand. It is not 'one or the other'. Christ is both. He is the suffering Servant, and He is the Warrior King.

Where does it say that the glory that follows involves Christ forcefully subduing the nations and setting Himself as King? In your head maybe, but certainly nowhere in 1 Peter.

He does not need to set Himself as King, He is King already (John 18:37). The Bible tells us “that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.“ (Phillipians 2:10).

I don’t know about you, but I don’t bow my knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord because I was forcefully subdued in a war, I do it because He conquered my heart as described in Ephesians 3:14-19. Conquering hearts and being truly loved and worshipped is something that cannot be forced at gunpoint.

Stranger · Nov 29, 2016

junobet

I thought you told me you didn't accept the Old Testament as the Word of God. So why do you quote Ps. 86? I have no problem with Psalm 86, but I thought you did. Indeed the nations shall worship the Lord...after He destroys the wicked in them. Again, read (Is. 63:1-6). Why do you say "supposedly destroys" when Psalm 2 indicates He will destroy.

Strange, you say to me, "you'll have to read the Bible very thoroughly" and then say concerning the glory that follows, " In your head maybe, but certainly nowhere in 1 Peter." Perhaps you also might read the Bible very thoroughly.

Well, a whole lot of war was necessary, and blood shed, to get to the place where you are able to accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour in peace. I'm certainly glad so many were willing to go to war for God, and shed their blood for God, so you could sit in peace and simply accept Christ. And of course that means you are no help to future believers when you want to simply stand by and give away what was accomplished by others. Your pacifism is a cancer.

No one is forcing anyone to believe.

Stranger

junobet · Nov 29, 2016

Stranger said:
junobet

I thought you told me you didn't accept the Old Testament as the Word of God. So why do you quote Ps. 86? I have no problem with Psalm 86, but I thought you did. Indeed the nations shall worship the Lord...after He destroys the wicked in them. Again, read (Is. 63:1-6). Why do you say "supposedly destroys" when Psalm 2 indicates He will destroy.

I never said I don’t accept the Old Testament as the Word of God. What I did say is that we can only truly understand the Old Testament in light of the New. In another thread I also pointed out that the Bible in its entirety becomes the Word of God in an event in which God uses it to communicate Himself to the reader. Whenever the Bible entices somebody to hatred, arrogance, greed, vengefulness and lust for violence and war, it wasn’t God who used it to speak to them, but the devil.

Strange, you say to me, "you'll have to read the Bible very thoroughly" and then say concerning the glory that follows, " In your head maybe, but certainly nowhere in 1 Peter." Perhaps you also might read the Bible very thoroughly.

I read it thoroughly enough to note that the New Testament only ever encourages Christians to bear suffering and martyrdom; nowhere does it encourage us to take up weapons and kill our fellowmen. In fact it tells us in no uncertain terms, over and over again, that love shall be our guiding principle. We are even to love those who persecute us.

Well, a whole lot of war was necessary, and blood shed, to get to the place where you are able to accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour in peace. I'm certainly glad so many were willing to go to war for God, and shed their blood for God, so you could sit in peace and simply accept Christ. And of course that means you are no help to future believers when you want to simply stand by and give away what was accomplished by others. Your pacifism is a cancer.

War has never brought peace. What does bring peace is justice.

What is a cancer is human sin, which leads to all kinds of atrocities including the one big atrocity that is war. There’d be no wars if everybody was a pacifist.

Just imagine all these resources the world wastes on the military being instead spent on healthcare, education, food, clean water … justly shared amongst people who love each other like God loved them first. Sounds like some utopic heaven to you? Maybe, but we are called to make a start:
“He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast which a woman took and mixed in sixty pounds of meal until it had leavened the whole batch.”” (Matthew 13:33)

No one is forcing anyone to believe.

No one can force anyone to believe but God. Alas, there are dark chapters in the history of Christianity when we forgot that.

Stranger · Nov 30, 2016

junobet

You told me you accepted only the Gospels, and Acts, and some of the epistles. I don't remember where but I believe that is what you said. But, moving on. You say if the Bible entices someone to hate or greed, etc., it wasn't God who used it but the Devil. But, is what the Bible says the inspired Word of God when it talks about war, hate, etc.? In other words, is (Ex.15:3) "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Is that true and inspired by God? Or is that statement false?

Nothing wrong with reading the New Testament. But there is nothing wrong with reading the Old Testament also. Both are inspired by God. And Christ is found throughout the Old Testament. (Luke 24:44) " And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

And, (Matt.10:34) " Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

You say war has never brought peace. This is the imaginary world you live in. In the world you must have war to obtain peace. In the world, that is the only thing that brings peace. This is why the West must fight the muslim Isis. It is either fight them or be willing to live under Islam. Is that what you think you should do? Go out there and love them? Sure, drop your weapons and surrender to Isis for the sake of peace and love. Let them destroy your people and country and churches. You just can't get more spiritual than that. How ludicrous.

The world is full of people who are not godly. They are not of God and don't want to be. And the utopia you pipe dream of, with everyone loving everybody, is not going to happen. In order for you to enjoy your freedom of worship, you must first have the political climate in place to do that. And then you must be willing to defend it. If you don't want to defend it, then someone else will have to do your dirty work. Or you will lose it. Which apparently you don't mind cause you get to be a martyr.

What 'dark chapters' are you talking about?

Stranger

junobet · Dec 1, 2016

Stranger said:
junobet

You told me you accepted only the Gospels, and Acts, and some of the epistles. I don't remember where but I believe that is what you said. But, moving on. You say if the Bible entices someone to hate or greed, etc., it wasn't God who used it but the Devil. But, is what the Bible says the inspired Word of God when it talks about war, hate, etc.? In other words, is (Ex.15:3) "The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Is that true and inspired by God? Or is that statement false?

Nothing wrong with reading the New Testament. But there is nothing wrong with reading the Old Testament also. Both are inspired by God. And Christ is found throughout the Old Testament. (Luke 24:44) " And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

The Gospel of Luke’s interpretation of the OT was obviously rather different to yours. After going into the OT’s promises about the Messiah, here’s how Zechariah’s prophecy ends:

“And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest;
for you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
77 to give knowledge of salvation to His people
by the remission of their sins,
78 through the tender mercy of our God,
whereby the sunrise from on high has visited us;
79 to give light to those who sit in darkness
and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the way of peace.” (Luke 1:76-79)

And, (Matt.10:34) " Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Yepp, the kind of sword that beheaded Maximilian the Martyr. If you are a soldier, you are not on the side of the sword that Christians are supposed to be on.

You say war has never brought peace. This is the imaginary world you live in. In the world you must have war to obtain peace. In the world, that is the only thing that brings peace. This is why the West must fight the muslim Isis. It is either fight them or be willing to live under Islam. Is that what you think you should do? Go out there and love them? Sure, drop your weapons and surrender to Isis for the sake of peace and love. Let them destroy your people and country and churches. You just can't get more spiritual than that. How ludicrous.

The world is full of people who are not godly. They are not of God and don't want to be. And the utopia you pipe dream of, with everyone loving everybody, is not going to happen. In order for you to enjoy your freedom of worship, you must first have the political climate in place to do that. And then you must be willing to defend it. If you don't want to defend it, then someone else will have to do your dirty work. Or you will lose it. Which apparently you don't mind cause you get to be a martyr.

If we must have war to obtain peace, how come then we still don’t live in peace with all these ‘heroic’ wars fought since time memorial?
Just to sum up the past century:

Back in 1914 WWI was thought of as the war that would end all wars. Instead the seeds for WWII were already planted in Versailles by humiliating the loser with crushing reparations. Even if not for entirely noble reasons, after WWII the US was clever enough to install the Marshall Plan instead (being nice to your enemy works: In Western Germany I certainly grew up in the naive belief that the USA are great.). The Cold War with all its very hot proxy wars had already started before WWII ended. One of these proxy wars was fought in Afghanistan: in an attempt to get the Russians out of Afghanistan (who just happened to be there on the invitation of a democratically elected secular Afghan Government) the CIA radicalized, trained and equipped the Mujahidin, called “freedom fighters” by Reagan. One of these “freedom fighters” was Osama Bin Laden. Alas, he got radicalized enough to get mightily annoyed by infidel American Soldiers setting foot on Muslim soil in Gulf War I, so that he (probably) ordered the terrorist attack on the Twin Towers in the attempt to start a holy war. Instead immediately after 9/11 the world’s heart went out to the US: everybody including most important Muslim leaders sent their condolences. Alas, at the time you had one of the most stupid Presidents ever. Instead of pursuing the course of international law and accepting the Taliban’s offer to extradite Bin Laden, so that he might get a fair trial and conviction, Bush decided to bomb already war-torn Afghanistan and to then use the opportunity to declare war on Iraq on totally false premises, thus destabilizing an entire region. And just to show how serious we are about our superior Western values he allowed for a little bit of torture and keeping people in prison without a trial. What had annoyed Bin Laden before, now annoyed even more people and hey presto: now we’ve got ISIS. You can bomb them however much you like, you can slander Islam and treat Muslims living in your country as bad as you like: experience has shown this will just lead to more people getting even more radical.

That’s the thing with violence: it causes counter-violence, a vicious circle that we have moved in ever since we’ve fallen into sin. So for a change you may want to ponder what the Bible has to say about fighting evil with evil (Romans 12:17/1 Peter 3:9). To say it in the Words of Martin Luther King:

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”

What 'dark chapters' are you talking about?

Oh tiny trifles such as Franks giving Saxons the choice between converting to Christianity or getting executed. Or the crusaders slaughtering the entire population of Jerusalem, infants included, after they’d already plundered and killed all Jews they met on the way. Not to mention that nasty habit of burning each other on the stake, that we had for quite a while.

In your book that may be the kind of behaviour that displays true Christian Spirit, but I don’t think so. Instead I see glimpses of true Christian Spirit at work in incidents like the 1914 Christmas Truce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX4i3BpJhuE

Stranger · Dec 1, 2016

junobet

You have a bad habit of not answering my questions. Do you believe (Ex. 15:3) is true and inspired by God?

Do you not agree with Luke 24:44. How have I interpreted wrongly?

Zacharias was the father of John the Baptist. John the Baptist preached the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is the literal Kingdom Christ sets up on earth with Him literally ruling in Jerusalem. Note in Luke 1:71 that in this Kingdom Israel will be saved from her enemies and those that hate them. And how will they be saved? Read again (Is.63:1-7). And yes, as a result, peace will come and peace will be the way Israel can walk. Because the Messiah is there and ruling in righteousness.

But Israel rejected the King. And the Kingdom didn't come. It is yet for a future day. And now things change. See (Luke 22:35-38). " And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now,..he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one....And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

Note the change in 22:36 "But now". Very clear. So, have you bought a sword yet? Or a gun would be better. Rifle or pistol or shotgun.

There are always going to be wars. You fight a war to keep the peace, to keep your way of life instead of being under the heel of others. You then must be prepared to defend that peace, constantly.

Are you willing to let Isis take over your country and rule over you and your people? Are you encouraging your government to lay down its arms and tell Isis that you mean them no harm and you are just going to love them and give them the gospel? I'm sure you are because you already told me you don't want your husband to protect you, so why should you want anyone else?

Because of Charlemagne's victory over the Saxons and others, the Church was given great protection and liberty to evangelize and learn the Scriptures. You and others may have profited from that. Many did. The first Crusade was started because of a plea for help from the Byzantine Emperor to help defend them from the muslim Turks. Europe was Christian and the Church responded. You would rather the Christians not go to help other Christians. Let the muslims have them. It's their chance to be a martyr....right? Again, ludicrous.

Stranger

logabe · Dec 3, 2016

Stranger said:
junobet

You have a bad habit of not answering my questions. Do you believe (Ex. 15:3) is true and inspired by God?

Do you not agree with Luke 24:44. How have I interpreted wrongly?

Zacharias was the father of John the Baptist. John the Baptist preached the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is the literal Kingdom Christ sets up on earth with Him literally ruling in Jerusalem. Note in Luke 1:71 that in this Kingdom Israel will be saved from her enemies and those that hate them. And how will they be saved? Read again (Is.63:1-7). And yes, as a result, peace will come and peace will be the way Israel can walk. Because the Messiah is there and ruling in righteousness.

But Israel rejected the King. And the Kingdom didn't come. It is yet for a future day. And now things change. See (Luke 22:35-38). " And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now,..he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one....And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

Note the change in 22:36 "But now". Very clear. So, have you bought a sword yet? Or a gun would be better. Rifle or pistol or shotgun.

There are always going to be wars. You fight a war to keep the peace, to keep your way of life instead of being under the heel of others. You then must be prepared to defend that peace, constantly.

Are you willing to let Isis take over your country and rule over you and your people? Are you encouraging your government to lay down its arms and tell Isis that you mean them no harm and you are just going to love them and give them the gospel? I'm sure you are because you already told me you don't want your husband to protect you, so why should you want anyone else?

Because of Charlemagne's victory over the Saxons and others, the Church was given great protection and liberty to evangelize and learn the Scriptures. You and others may have profited from that. Many did. The first Crusade was started because of a plea for help from the Byzantine Emperor to help defend them from the muslim Turks. Europe was Christian and the Church responded. You would rather the Christians not go to help other Christians. Let the muslims have them. It's their chance to be a martyr....right? Again, ludicrous.

Stranger

Here's God's Warrior in Eph. 6:10-18,

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your
stand against the devil’s schemes.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against
the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this
dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly
realms.
13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the
day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and
after you have done everything, to stand.
14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your
waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from
the gospel of peace.
16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which
you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God.
18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of
prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the Lord’s people.

Truth, righteousness, gospel of peace, faith, salvation, and the sword of the Spirit
are all weapons that God has given us as warriors!!!

Not carnal weapons, because our fight isn't with flesh and blood as you have described,
but through praying in the Spirit we can bring down these spiritual forces of evil which
you have been talking about.

Logabe

Stranger · Dec 3, 2016

Logabe

What 'spirtiual' forces of evil have I been talking about?

Stranger

logabe · Dec 4, 2016

Stranger said:
Logabe

What 'spirtiual' forces of evil have I been talking about?

Stranger

The 2nd Heaven where the battles take place. What did the priest do before Israel
went to battle in the Old Testament... They prayed!

What is our battle field? This present life.

What are we suppose to do before we go out for spiritual warfare?

We suppose to pray! That will get our mind right by putting on the Mind of Christ
daily through prayer so we can become a spiritual warrior in the army of God.

Romans 13:12-14 says,

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore
cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor
of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and
drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife
and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision
for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Logabe

junobet · Dec 4, 2016

Stranger said:
junobet

You have a bad habit of not answering my questions. Do you believe (Ex. 15:3) is true and inspired by God?

Ex 15:3 is´as true and inspired as the rest of the OT. As Logabe has already pointed out, your interpretation of it is not. If you fail to the read OT in light of the NT, you’ll end up with a very warped picture of what God is and wants.

Do you not agree with Luke 24:44. How have I interpreted wrongly?

In not taking into account how the Gospel of Luke and the NT as a whole interpret these prophecies. The Gospels’ interpretation of OT prophecies differs markedly from yours. Yours – and a traditional Jewish one - would be the idea that the Messiah is an earthly King and military leader delivering the earthly nation of Israel from oppression by rivalling nations. The new Testament tells us that the Messiah delivers the spiritual Israel from sin, evil and divine condemnation.

Zacharias was the father of John the Baptist. John the Baptist preached the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven is the literal Kingdom Christ sets up on earth with Him literally ruling in Jerusalem.

That Jerusalem with its pearly gates is about as literal as you and I are literally of Abraham’s seed and as the Book of Revelation is literally talking about Babylon.

Note in Luke 1:71 that in this Kingdom Israel will be saved from her enemies and those that hate them. And how will they be saved? Read again (Is.63:1-7). And yes, as a result, peace will come and peace will be the way Israel can walk. Because the Messiah is there and ruling in righteousness.

Turns out that Christ does not protect us from our enemies in the way you think He should, but by showing us how to turn them into friends. It’s not Stephen’s body that He protected from his enemies but his soul. I should think Stephen found life when losing his whilst seeing Jesus (already) at the right hand of God and asking for the forgiveness of those who stoned him to death. (Acts 7:54-59)

But Israel rejected the King. And the Kingdom didn't come. It is yet for a future day. And now things change. See (Luke 22:35-38). " And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now,..he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one....And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough."

Again: two swords aren’t enough to start a war with. The Bible explicitly tells you that these swords sole purpose is to fulfill prophecy (Luke 22:37 – the verse you conveniently left out). It also explicitly advocates non-violent resistance in the Sermon on the Mount (https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/road-peace/offer-no-violent-resistance-sermon-mount-part-3). The Bible also explicitly tells us that Jesus Christ - who withstood Satan’s temptation to get the glory of all the kingdoms of this earth (Luke 4:5-8) - already is King and has been given all authority in heaven and on earth in His death and resurrection (Matthew 28:18). We are to be the servants of this kingdom until Christ returns (check the parables).
If you don’t get that and still think - like the Jews did – that the kingdom will to be brought about by military force, Jesus has as much cause to weep over you as he wept over Jerusalem at around 30 AD:
“If you, even you, had known even today what things would bring you peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you and surround you, and press you in on every side. 44 They will dash you, and your children within you, to the ground. They will not leave one stone upon another within you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” (Luke 19:42-44)

Note the change in 22:36 "But now". Very clear. So, have you bought a sword yet? Or a gun would be better. Rifle or pistol or shotgun.

Note "It's enough". Will a weapon save my soul? No? I don’t need one then.

There are always going to be wars. You fight a war to keep the peace, to keep your way of life instead of being under the heel of others. You then must be prepared to defend that peace, constantly.

Are you willing to let Isis take over your country and rule over you and your people? Are you encouraging your government to lay down its arms and tell Isis that you mean them no harm and you are just going to love them and give them the gospel? I'm sure you are because you already told me you don't want your husband to protect you, so why should you want anyone else?

I think my country would best protect me against ISIS if it welcomed refugees fleeing the violence of both ISIS and Assad with open arms, if it stopped selling weapons to Saudi Arabia to terrorize Yemen with, if it lobbied against Drone Strikes terrorizing people in Northern Pakistan and elsewhere, insisted on international law being upheld by its allies and engaged in the world-wide economy in a way that does not result in most of this world’s population living in destitute poverty, even at risk of starvation.
In other words: I think my country would best protect me against ISIS or any other enemy if it followed Pau’s advice:
"9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Hate what is evil. Cleave to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another with brotherly love; prefer one another in honor, 11 do not be lazy in diligence, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord, 12 rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer, 13 contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless, and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Do not pretend to be wiser than you are.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Commend what is honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as it depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to God’s wrath, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine. I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him a drink;
for in doing so you will heap coals of fire on his head.”[b]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
(Romans 12:9-21)

Because of Charlemagne's victory over the Saxons and others, the Church was given great protection and liberty to evangelize and learn the Scriptures. You and others may have profited from that. Many did. The first Crusade was started because of a plea for help from the Byzantine Emperor to help defend them from the muslim Turks. Europe was Christian and the Church responded. You would rather the Christians not go to help other Christians. Let the muslims have them. It's their chance to be a martyr....right? Again, ludicrous.

Your feeble attempt to justify the atrocities committed in the name of our religion goes to show that you haven’t quite internalized Matthew 7:3-5. To me it also raises the question how your mindset is any different from those belligerent Muslims you so despise. They too find our faith ludicrous.

But of course anybody who conforms to this world with its logic of war and hasn’t yet been transformed by the renewing of their mind would deem faith in a crucified King ludicrous. (Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:18-25)

Stranger · Dec 4, 2016

logabe said:
The 2nd Heaven where the battles take place. What did the priest do before Israel
went to battle in the Old Testament... They prayed!

What is our battle field? This present life.

What are we suppose to do before we go out for spiritual warfare?

We suppose to pray! That will get our mind right by putting on the Mind of Christ
daily through prayer so we can become a spiritual warrior in the army of God.

Romans 13:12-14 says,

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore
cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor
of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and
drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife
and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision
for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Logabe

I didn't ask you what spiritual forces you are talking about. I asked you what spiritual forces of evil I have been talking about. See your last sentence your reply #72.

Where have I said not to pray?

Stanger

Stranger · Dec 4, 2016

junobet said:
Ex 15:3 is´as true and inspired as the rest of the OT. As Logabe has already pointed out, your interpretation of it is not. If you fail to the read OT in light of the NT, you’ll end up with a very warped picture of what God is and wants.

In not taking into account how the Gospel of Luke and the NT as a whole interpret these prophecies. The Gospels’ interpretation of OT prophecies differs markedly from yours. Yours – and a traditional Jewish one - would be the idea that the Messiah is an earthly King and military leader delivering the earthly nation of Israel from oppression by rivalling nations. The new Testament tells us that the Messiah delivers the spiritual Israel from sin, evil and divine condemnation.

That Jerusalem with its pearly gates is about as literal as you and I are literally of Abraham’s seed and as the Book of Revelation is literally talking about Babylon.

Turns out that Christ does not protect us from our enemies in the way you think He should, but by showing us how to turn them into friends. It’s not Stephen’s body that He protected from his enemies but his soul. I should think Stephen found life when losing his whilst seeing Jesus (already) at the right hand of God and asking for the forgiveness of those who stoned him to death. (Acts 7:54-59)

Again: two swords aren’t enough to start a war with. The Bible explicitly tells you that these swords sole purpose is to fulfill prophecy (Luke 22:37 – the verse you conveniently left out). It also explicitly advocates non-violent resistance in the Sermon on the Mount (https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/road-peace/offer-no-violent-resistance-sermon-mount-part-3). The Bible also explicitly tells us that Jesus Christ - who withstood Satan’s temptation to get the glory of all the kingdoms of this earth (Luke 4:5-8) - already is King and has been given all authority in heaven and on earth in His death and resurrection (Matthew 28:18). We are to be the servants of this kingdom until Christ returns (check the parables).
If you don’t get that and still think - like the Jews did – that the kingdom will to be brought about by military force, Jesus has as much cause to weep over you as he wept over Jerusalem at around 30 AD:
“If you, even you, had known even today what things would bring you peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you and surround you, and press you in on every side. 44 They will dash you, and your children within you, to the ground. They will not leave one stone upon another within you, because you did not know the time of your visitation.” (Luke 19:42-44)
Note "It's enough". Will a weapon save my soul? No? I don’t need one then.

I think my country would best protect me against ISIS if it welcomed refugees fleeing the violence of both ISIS and Assad with open arms, if it stopped selling weapons to Saudi Arabia to terrorize Yemen with, if it lobbied against Drone Strikes terrorizing people in Northern Pakistan and elsewhere, insisted on international law being upheld by its allies and engaged in the world-wide economy in a way that does not result in most of this world’s population living in destitute poverty, even at risk of starvation.
In other words: I think my country would best protect me against ISIS or any other enemy if it followed Pau’s advice:
"9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Hate what is evil. Cleave to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another with brotherly love; prefer one another in honor, 11 do not be lazy in diligence, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord, 12 rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer, 13 contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless, and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Do not pretend to be wiser than you are.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Commend what is honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as it depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to God’s wrath, for it is written: “Vengeance is Mine. I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. 20 Therefore
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him a drink;
for in doing so you will heap coals of fire on his head.”[b]
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
(Romans 12:9-21)

Your feeble attempt to justify the atrocities committed in the name of our religion goes to show that you haven’t quite internalized Matthew 7:3-5. To me it also raises the question how your mindset is any different from those belligerent Muslims you so despise. They too find our faith ludicrous.

But of course anybody who conforms to this world with its logic of war and hasn’t yet been transformed by the renewing of their mind would deem faith in a crucified King ludicrous. (Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:18-25)

That is no answer. Again, is Ex.15:3 inspidred by God and true. Is the Old Testament inspired by God and true?

I agree completely with (Luke24:44). So, how is the New Testament interpretation of Old Testament prophecies different than mine? Again, do you agree with (Lu. 24:44)? And why didn't Christ tell the disciples that there would be no earthly kingdom when they brought it up in (Acts 1:6-7)? Acts is New Testament, corret? It would have been the perfect time to set ethe disciples straight.

Well, you and I are literally of Abrahams seed. (Gal.3:29). And so the Kingdom of Christ on the earth is literal also.

Stephen never asked for God to forgive them who stoned him in (Acts7:54-59). Stephen didn't find life by dying. He already had it. His witness cost him his life.

Nothing in (Lu. 22:37) says anything about the purpose of two swords being for the fulfillment of prophesy. Jesus is talking about His upcoming death. The swords are for the disciples. As Jesus said, sell what you can and get a sword. As far as war, the sword in that day was the weapon of the soldier. Yes, Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. But He was not received as such by Israel, over whom He is the King. Israel rejected the King and the Kingdom. Had she received it, then (Is. 63) would have taken place.

"It is enough" in (Lu. 22:38) doesn't mean you don't need a sword. It means just the oipposite. You didn't address the "But now" change in (Lu. 22:36). Are you just ignoring it?

You're living in a fantasy world. Nations don't function like the Church, and God doesn't expect them to. Your nation has armies to protect you, which protection you enjoy, but despise. What do you think would happen if your countries government laid down all it's weapons and opened all it's borders for the sake of peace? Be honest now.

My mindset is different than the muslims because I accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour. muslims find both your and my faith ludicrous also. So what? If muslims see me as an enemy, they are correct.

Stranger

junobet · Dec 5, 2016

Stranger said:
That is no answer. Again, is Ex.15:3 inspidred by God and true. Is the Old Testament inspired by God and true?

I should have thought I’ve made myself perfectly clear by now:

Yes, I believe the OT is inspired by God and true. But it does not contain the kind of truth you have in mind.

Actually I find kind of amusing that you accuse me of living in a fantasy world, when you are the one who – in spite of all evidence to the contrary - mistakes its ancient ancestral sagas for actual 1:1 history. I’m realistic enough to know that historicity is not the kind of truth these stories are concerned with. But this difference between us doesn’t even matter here: Loads of Christians thought/think of these stories as actual history and still grasped the actual truth God meant to convey via these stories. Alas, you use their supposed historicity as an excuse for continued bloodshed, which goes contrary to the way in which Christ read and understood the OT. The very truth He points us to seems to have passed you by entirely: Exodus 23:4-5; Proverbs 25:21; Proverbs 24:17; II Kings 6:8-23; Isaiah 2:2-5; Isaiah 26 …

I agree completely with (Luke24:44). So, how is the New Testament interpretation of Old Testament prophecies different than mine?

To begin with it seems you don’t believe Jesus is already King, because somehow a crucified Messiah preaching repentance, forgiveness and love isn’t quite the martial Super-Hero you desire..

Again, do you agree with (Lu. 24:44)? And why didn't Christ tell the disciples that there would be no earthly kingdom when they brought it up in (Acts 1:6-7)? Acts is New Testament, corret? It would have been the perfect time to set ethe disciples straight.

I believe that the harvest of the Kingdom of Heaven has been sown and it will be reaping day at the end of time (Luke 8:4-15). According to Luke Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem that took place in 70 AD (Luke 21:6). We – at least those of us who bring forward the good fruit that stems from true faith in Christ - are promised “a new heaven and a new earth”, where “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Rev. 21:4)

Well, you and I are literally of Abrahams seed. (Gal.3:29). And so the Kingdom of Christ on the earth is literal also.

I don’t know about you, but if I discarded the Biblical advice not to bother much with genealogies (1 Tim 3-5) if I then tried to trace my bloodline back to some ancient near Eastern figure called Abraham, I’m sure I’d fail miserably. I’d be very surprised indeed if there was any Jew in my ancestry. Galatians 3 actually tells us gentiles that it doesn’t matter that we are not literally of Abrahams seed. What does matter is that we are spiritually of his seed by faith in Christ.

Stephen never asked for God to forgive them who stoned him in (Acts7:54-59). Stephen didn't find life by dying. He already had it. His witness cost him his life.

Oops, sorry, my memory for numbers is really bad: Stephen forgave those who stoned him in verse Acts 7:60:

“59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.“

That said, I’m a little surprised that a 'Bible-believing' Christian is not fully acquainted with the story of Stephen. You really don’t bother with the NT and its martyrs much, do you?

Nothing in (Lu. 22:37) says anything about the purpose of two swords being for the fulfillment of prophesy. Jesus is talking about His upcoming death. The swords are for the disciples. As Jesus said, sell what you can and get a sword. As far as war, the sword in that day was the weapon of the soldier. Yes, Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. But He was not received as such by Israel, over whom He is the King. Israel rejected the King and the Kingdom. Had she received it, then (Is. 63) would have taken place.

"It is enough" in (Lu. 22:38) doesn't mean you don't need a sword. It means just the oipposite. You didn't address the "But now" change in (Lu. 22:36). Are you just ignoring it?

Such capacity for flat-out denial is mind-boggling and makes me question whether discussing with you makes any sense at all:

Luke 22:37: “For I tell you, what is written must yet be accomplished in Me, ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.”

Isaiah 53:12: “Therefore, I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death,
and he was numbered with the transgressors,
thus he bore the sin of many
and made intercession for the transgressors."

The “But now” goes to show Jesus only ever preached peaceful resistance before. That’s why Jesus needs to explain to the disciples why He suddenly wants them to buy swords. Luke 22:37 and Luke 22:49-53 make it perfectly clear that Jesus still does not approve of violence. Note that in the prophecy, that He refers to in verse 37, intercession has to be made for the transgressors. Christians believe that Christ bore our sins, when He died on the cross, but we don’t tend to believe that this gives us the licence to keep on sinning.

You're living in a fantasy world. Nations don't function like the Church, and God doesn't expect them to. Your nation has armies to protect you, which protection you enjoy, but despise. What do you think would happen if your countries government laid down all it's weapons and opened all it's borders for the sake of peace? Be honest now.

Well, it seems that Christians have always been faced with “scoffers” who told Christians they live in a fantasy world, because Christians patiently believed in “His promise (…) for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells” and thus sought to “escape the corruption that is in the world through lust” and wanted to be “found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless”. And I’m not kidding myself into thinking that it’s a walk in the park to follow “a more reliable word of prophecy, which you would do well to follow, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (2 Peter) My keen interest in politics and history lead me to believe that very soon both our countries are going to go the way that all great empires have gone: our mighty nation’s stars will fall just like Babylon’s and Rome’s stars have fallen. And it may well be that in the process there’ll be many more tribulations in store that we are to endure like Stephen in order to give witness of that light. These tribulations, by which our faith and commitment are tested, may well last for thousands and thousands of years (2 Peter 3:7-9).

The last empire we saw fall wasn’t brought down by military force by the way. It eventually succumbed to the Peace-Prayers held in Eastern German churches and the non-violent demonstrations that started from there. Of course the demonstrators risked the same fate as those demonstrators who got rolled down by tanks in the Prague and Bejing Spring. It’s the kind of risk people of faith willingly take. http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/24661333

My mindset is different than the muslims because I accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour. muslims find both your and my faith ludicrous also. So what? If muslims see me as an enemy, they are correct.

Stranger

If you only love your friends, but are not willing to love your enemies, it shows that your mindset is in no way different from that of the world. As for accepting Christ as your Lord: When I read what you wrote here and compare that to the attitudes many peaceful Muslims show, I’m reminded of Luke 6:46, Matthew 7:21-23 and the Parable of the two Sons in Matthew 21:28-31. You may want to take some time to ponder these passages.

Stranger · Dec 6, 2016

junobet said:
I should have thought I’ve made myself perfectly clear by now:

Yes, I believe the OT is inspired by God and true. But it does not contain the kind of truth you have in mind.

Actually I find kind of amusing that you accuse me of living in a fantasy world, when you are the one who – in spite of all evidence to the contrary - mistakes its ancient ancestral sagas for actual 1:1 history. I’m realistic enough to know that historicity is not the kind of truth these stories are concerned with. But this difference between us doesn’t even matter here: Loads of Christians thought/think of these stories as actual history and still grasped the actual truth God meant to convey via these stories. Alas, you use their supposed historicity as an excuse for continued bloodshed, which goes contrary to the way in which Christ read and understood the OT. The very truth He points us to seems to have passed you by entirely: Exodus 23:4-5; Proverbs 25:21; Proverbs 24:17; II Kings 6:8-23; Isaiah 2:2-5; Isaiah 26 …

To begin with it seems you don’t believe Jesus is already King, because somehow a crucified Messiah preaching repentance, forgiveness and love isn’t quite the martial Super-Hero you desire..

I believe that the harvest of the Kingdom of Heaven has been sown and it will be reaping day at the end of time (Luke 8:4-15). According to Luke Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem that took place in 70 AD (Luke 21:6). We – at least those of us who bring forward the good fruit that stems from true faith in Christ - are promised “a new heaven and a new earth”, where “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Rev. 21:4)

I don’t know about you, but if I discarded the Biblical advice not to bother much with genealogies (1 Tim 3-5) if I then tried to trace my bloodline back to some ancient near Eastern figure called Abraham, I’m sure I’d fail miserably. I’d be very surprised indeed if there was any Jew in my ancestry. Galatians 3 actually tells us gentiles that it doesn’t matter that we are not literally of Abrahams seed. What does matter is that we are spiritually of his seed by faith in Christ.

Oops, sorry, my memory for numbers is really bad: Stephen forgave those who stoned him in verse Acts 7:60:

“59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.“

That said, I’m a little surprised that a 'Bible-believing' Christian is not fully acquainted with the story of Stephen. You really don’t bother with the NT and its martyrs much, do you?

Such capacity for flat-out denial is mind-boggling and makes me question whether discussing with you makes any sense at all:

Luke 22:37: “For I tell you, what is written must yet be accomplished in Me, ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.”

Isaiah 53:12: “Therefore, I will divide him a portion with the great,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death,
and he was numbered with the transgressors,
thus he bore the sin of many
and made intercession for the transgressors."

The “But now” goes to show Jesus only ever preached peaceful resistance before. That’s why Jesus needs to explain to the disciples why He suddenly wants them to buy swords. Luke 22:37 and Luke 22:49-53 make it perfectly clear that Jesus still does not approve of violence. Note that in the prophecy, that He refers to in verse 37, intercession has to be made for the transgressors. Christians believe that Christ bore our sins, when He died on the cross, but we don’t tend to believe that this gives us the licence to keep on sinning.

Well, it seems that Christians have always been faced with “scoffers” who told Christians they live in a fantasy world, because Christians patiently believed in “His promise (…) for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells” and thus sought to “escape the corruption that is in the world through lust” and wanted to be “found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless”. And I’m not kidding myself into thinking that it’s a walk in the park to follow “a more reliable word of prophecy, which you would do well to follow, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.” (2 Peter) My keen interest in politics and history lead me to believe that very soon both our countries are going to go the way that all great empires have gone: our mighty nation’s stars will fall just like Babylon’s and Rome’s stars have fallen. And it may well be that in the process there’ll be many more tribulations in store that we are to endure like Stephen in order to give witness of that light. These tribulations, by which our faith and commitment are tested, may well last for thousands and thousands of years (2 Peter 3:7-9).

The last empire we saw fall wasn’t brought down by military force by the way. It eventually succumbed to the Peace-Prayers held in Eastern German churches and the non-violent demonstrations that started from there. Of course the demonstrators risked the same fate as those demonstrators who got rolled down by tanks in the Prague and Bejing Spring. It’s the kind of risk people of faith willingly take. http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/0/24661333

If you only love your friends, but are not willing to love your enemies, it shows that your mindset is in no way different from that of the world. As for accepting Christ as your Lord: When I read what you wrote here and compare that to the attitudes many peaceful Muslims show, I’m reminded of Luke 6:46, Matthew 7:21-23 and the Parable of the two Sons in Matthew 21:28-31. You may want to take some time to ponder these passages.

Yes, I do believe that which is recorded in the Old Testament concerns actual events and people. And all those Old Testament verses you cite, I believe completely. Just like I believe the ones that later declare the wars Israel had to fight. Just like I believe the ones where David says he hates the enemies of God with a perfect hatred. (Ps. 139:20-22) "For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain. Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

I stated clearly that Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And I believe totally what the New Testament explains concerning the Old Testament. Jesus Christ is everything and more than I want. He is just not the 'pacifist' that you want.

Nothing in the Kingdom parables indicate there will be no earthly kingdom given to Israel. And again, why didn't Christ tell the disciples that when they asked? (Acts 1:6-7) "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." This is New Testament.

You don't have to trace your blood lines. You just need to believe (Gal.3:29).

Actually, I thought Stephen did forgive his enemies. But when I read the verses you gave and the ones before and after, I just missed it. Which is why I was clear in giving you the verses again because I didn't see it. My mistake.

Again, (Luke 22:37) is quoting from (Is.53:12). It speaks to Christ being numbered with the transgressors. It is not saying in anyway that the disciples are not to pick up the sword. Christ clearly said in (Luke 22:36) that they need to have a sword. The 'But now' shows a change. That change being you need a sword. That is not sinning.

Concerning the Soviet Empire you speak of, had there been no nations to oppose them militarily, they never would have fallen. If all the surrounding nations had just said we want peace and laid down their guns, then Russia would have said, thanks and rolled in. The iron curtain didn't fall because of pacifism.

Islam and muslims are an enemy of God. Thus an enemy of mine. If I meet some, yes, the Holy Spirit in me can give me the ability to love them. But not every time or every one. And even if I am able to love some, they are still my enemy. They don't become my friend. And they don't become a friend to God.

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bbyrd009 · Dec 6, 2016

oh, you might be surprised...

Love your enemies

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