Who or What is Antichrist?

heretoeternity said:

I realize you consider anyone who quotes the word of God from the Bible as a bigot..I understand that, and I understand how you are so influenced by the counterfeit teachings of Rome that anyone who disagrees with you is hateful or a heretic...just like the old days of the inquisitions eh Mungo...funny how time has not changed the thinking or the policies of Rome..it's a good thing God promises to solve this problem in Revelation 18...read also Revelation 17 Revelation 13 and 2nd Thess 2 3&4

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But you don't quote from the Bible - you just spew out your hate.

I offered you a serious discussion in post #93 when I wrote:
I am ready to discuss issues you have with Catholic teaching if you can actually present an issue without just being insulting and with some credible evidence to back up your claims.

Did you take up my offer? No! You just spew out your bigoted assertions.

we all seem to seek truth as a physical thing, that we can get behind and defend, and truth just does not seem to want to cooperate, huh.

might be a good idea to remember that God is with whoever is being oppressed.

bbyrd009 said:

we all seem to seek truth as a physical thing, that we can get behind and defend, and truth just does not seem to want to cooperate, huh.

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[SIZE=12pt]“What is truth?” (Jn 18:38) - see I do read the Bible. [/SIZE]

ha, not sure how you could recognize anyone with an earthly crown after reading that, but amen

Love for the truth was a favorite theme of Pope John Paul II.
“Let us seek the truth about Christ and about his Church!...Let us love the Truth, proclaim the Truth! O Christ, show us the Truth! Be the only Truth for us!”
– Agenda for the Third Millennium Pope John Paul II

The Holy Father’s enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world. In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth. This fear may be analyzed on three different levels:

1) that the truth would impose unwanted moral responsibilities on them;
2) that any association with the truth would occasion an air of pretentiousness;
3) that any claim to the truth might expose them to being wrong.

They prefer freedom from moral responsibility, absence of any “holier than thou” attitude and exemption from the possible embarrassment of being in error. Their fears, however, take them from the very light and meaning they long for, and plunge them into a dark void were they are trapped by a misery of their own making. Their flight from the truth is also an entrance into a world of gloom.
These three fears are ill fated, as well as ill founded. First of all, truth is our only avenue to real freedom. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” John 8:32

Ignorance may at times be blissful, but it is never illuminating. St. Augustine once remarked that he had met many people who had been deceived, but never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things. No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn. Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).

When we are lost we want to learn the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment. The truth about ourselves awakens us to our moral responsibilities, but we need this awakening in order to become whom we truly are, to advance toward our destiny, to build a meaningful life.

We should welcome the truth that illuminates our moral responsibilities with the same enthusiasm that a person who is lost in the woods and welcomes a compass and a map.

Secondly, the fear that any discovery of truth would make us pretentious is also counterproductive. Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)

Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his. Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.
And both Christ and his Church are unrelenting in their advocacy of humility and in their condemnation of vanity. In fact, it may be far less tolerant of Pharisaism than the secular world. Consider, for example, the comment, “I hate anything fake,” made by Britney Spears, a veritable icon of artificiality and pretense. The secular world awards this kind of duplicity with celebrity.

Thirdly, there is the rather spineless fear that in perusing the truth, we might fall into the embarrassing predicament of being wrong. Again, there is nothing wrong that can reasonably justify this anxiety. We all make mistakes. Not to try something for fear of making a mistake is akin to a paralyzing neurosis that would discourage one from trying anything.

Some people avoid marriage because they fear divorce. Others avoid friendship because they fear rejection. The pursuit of truth presupposes a certain amount of courage. If nothing is ventured, as the maxim goes, nothing is gained.

The fact that truth is indispensable for a meaningful life does not mean that it is always agreeable. Mounting the bathroom scale can be a breathless ascent, because the anxious weight-watcher knows that this simple piece of machinery tells the truth.
But he disconcerting truth that one is overweight may be exactly what one needs if exercising and dieting are to follow. The freedom that health offers may need to be preceded by the disagreeable truth that one is too fat.

Truth is as natural to our minds as oxygen is to our lungs and food is to our digestive system. It is a great mistake to regard the teaching of truth as an imposition. The Church does not, nor can she, “impose” truth. Rather, she endeavors to propose truths to those who are disposed to receive them. The Vatican’s Declaration of Religious Liberty states that, “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with gentleness and power.

The Church as Guardian of the Truth and Teacher of the Word provides food for hungry minds. She does not impose the truth; no more than do Christians impose food on hungry bodies when they practice this corporeal act of mercy.
She guards it because it needs to be protected against the contamination of error. She teaches it because it is more nourishing than error. Moreover, the truth enables her to teach realistically about the truth of Christ, the truth of the Catholic Church, and the truth of man. Apostles are ministers of love, but they are also servants of the truth.

By Dr. Donald DeMarco, Professor of Philosophy, St. Jerome’s College at U. of Waterloo, he is married with 5 children.
Taken from The Bread of Life Magazine, July / Aug. Volume 26 Number 3, with minor editing by me.

how do you justify recognizing an earthly crown from this, one must wonder. Rhetorical question, though; i am already aware of the tortured path assumed for this. But you have to reflect upon the Scriptural reality that if you are not a Priest, you should really not even be reading the Bible, or replying. It becomes justified for me to ask you to please submit my replies to your priest, and bring me his answers only.

bbyrd009 said:

how do you justify recognizing an earthly crown from this, one must wonder. Rhetorical question, though; i am already aware of the tortured path assumed for this. But you have to reflect upon the Scriptural reality that if you are not a Priest, you should really not even be reading the Bible, or replying. It becomes justified for me to ask you to please submit my replies to your priest, and bring me his answers only.

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What are you rambling about?

Why should I not read the Bible if I am not a priest?

Why should I not reply to you if I am not a priest?

Anyway according to scripture all Christians are priests (1Pet 2:9)

P.S. I am a citizen of the UK and our Queen wears a crown. Do you have an issue with that?

Mungo said:

What are you rambling about?

Why should I not read the Bible if I am not a priest?

Why should I not reply to you if I am not a priest?

Anyway according to scripture all Christians are priests (1Pet 2:9)

P.S. I am a citizen of the UK and our Queen wears a crown. Do you have an issue with that?

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well, i hope you understand that i don't have an issue with you recognizing an earthly priest, if that works for you, and fits your interpretation of Scripture. I try to remember that we debate doctrine here, and this is not IRL. Another way to put that might be that we debate the 1/10th, and hopefully recognize the important part, the 9/10ths.

Now, with that said, my reply to your ps is that you cannot serve two masters, and it seems to me that identifying as a citizen of an earthly kingdom would engender unresolvable dichotomies for someone who seeks to follow Christ, but this is just my interpretation. I tend to take 1Sam8 literally, and recognize no potus in my nation, but this causes its own problems, of course, as i am still bound to obey just laws, etc.

it is heartening to hear a Catholic describe themselves as a Priest; i was not aware that a Catholic could even hold this view? So that is interesting imo. Learn something every day, huh? I wonder how far i would have to go to find a Catholic who disagreed there; but really, it is a small matter to me, and we should not let these divide us.

bbyrd009 said:

it is heartening to hear a Catholic describe themselves as a Priest; i was not aware that a Catholic could even hold this view? So that is interesting imo. Learn something every day, huh? I wonder how far i would have to go to find a Catholic who disagreed there; but really, it is a small matter to me, and we should not let these divide us.

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Of course Catholics hold this view. It's Biblical.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 1546;
[SIZE=12pt]Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father." The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. the faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood." [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]However we are drifting well off topic.[/SIZE]

The three-fold model of the priesthood which was in use at the time of Aaron was carried over into the New Testament and thus we find there also a

• high priest,
• ministerial priests, and
• universal priests.

In the New Testament age

• the high priest is Jesus Christ Heb. 3:1,
• the ministerial priests are Christ’s ordained ministers of the gospel Rom. 15:16,
• and the universal priests are the entire Christian people 1 Peter. 2:5

The Bible clearly states that all Christians are priests , as the Catholic Church clearly teaches for all who bother to read its teachings, see Catechism of the Catholic Church 1141-4, 1268, 1305, 1535, 1547, 1591-2 on the common priesthood. But the Bible also said the same thing about the Israelites Ex. 19:6, yet this did not prevent there from being a separate, ministerial priesthood even before the Law of Moses was given Ex. 19:22
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Pope Francis to youth: the Bible can change your life. Now read it!

Vatican City, Oct 23, 2015 / 06:03 am (CNA/EWTN News).- The Bible is so dangerous that some Christians risk persecution to have one. But for Pope Francis, its life-changing role in daily life is important too.

“The Bible is not meant to be placed on a shelf, but to be in your hands, to read often – every day, both on your own and together with others,” he wrote in the prologue to a Bible for youth in Germany.

He encouraged young people to read the Bible together the way they play sports or go shopping together.
“Why not read the Bible together as well – two, three, or four of you? In nature, in the woods, on the beach, at night in the glow of a few candles … you will have a great experience!”

“Read with attention! Do not stay on the surface as if reading a comic book! Never just skim the Word of God!” he exhorted, according to a translation by the news site Aleteia.
The Pope encouraged young people to ask what God says to them through the Bible.
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Off topic, I know. I couldn't help myself.

heretoeternity said:

Mungo, you do not use the Bible to explain things, just keep spouting the Roman Catholic sources, which are not reliable Biblically...time to expand your horizons and start following actual scripture, and address the issues raised by 2nd Thess 2 3&4, Revelation 13, Revelation 17 and 18, as these directly apply to the Roman religious system.

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I use Catholic sources to explain WHAT Catholics believe and practice.

I use the Bible and other sources to explain WHY Catholics believe what they believe and practice.

One of your many problems is that you have false beliefs about what Catholics believe and practice.


What do you believe is in 2nd Thess 2 3&4, Revelation 13, Revelation 17 and 18 that applies to Catholic teaching and practice?
Please give specific quotations and evidence for your claims.

heretoeternity said:

You still did not address the issues of 2nd Thess 2 3&4, Revelation 13 and Revelation 17..these are a very good description of the Roman religious system...
The true followers of Jesus follow the Bible..why doesn't the pagan based Roman religious system?

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You never explain what you consider are issues in 2nd Thess 2 3&4, Revelation 13 and Revelation 17 that apply to Catholic teaching and practice. So how can anyone address them?

heretoeternity said:

Mungo you are still in denial of God's Holy words The Bible..that is typical of the Roman Catholic religious organization...have their own manmade pagan doctrines which do not line up with the Bible in a lot of instances. But your religious organization seems to feel that is okay, as their "infallibility" can override God's word..there is plenty of evidence of that...Read Daniel 7 "they change God's times and laws" No problem for an antichrist power to do that...Also read Revelation 17, 13 and 18 and 2nd Thess 2 3&4 as it directly pertains to this organizationl.

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Just chucking insults does nothing for your credibility.

I ask you again:
What do you believe is in 2nd Thess 2 3&4, Revelation 13, Revelation 17 and 18 that applies to Catholic teaching and practice?
Please give specific quotations and evidence for your claims.

Mungo said:

Of course Catholics hold this view. It's Biblical.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 1546;
[SIZE=12pt]Christ, high priest and unique mediator, has made of the Church "a kingdom, priests for his God and Father." The whole community of believers is, as such, priestly. the faithful exercise their baptismal priesthood through their participation, each according to his own vocation, in Christ's mission as priest, prophet, and king. Through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation the faithful are "consecrated to be . . . a holy priesthood." [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]However we are drifting well off topic.[/SIZE]

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Well wadr i notice you say stuff like "it's Biblical," but then you go to some extra-Biblical source for your quotes. A lot.

So while i agree with you that HtE is not doing the Protestant position any favors, and i notice that he posts a bunch of Bible, all from one side, and not bringing up the Passages that counter his, with all due respect i have never heard a Catholic state that they were aware of their priesthood--which granted i think most Protestants only give that lip-service, if they are even aware of it--and you kind of have a cliche to overcome here, that being "Catholics are encouraged to not read their Bibles."

Although it is heartening to read kepha's post, that is very cool imo. i knew i liked that guy

bbyrd009 said:

Well wadr i notice you say stuff like "it's Biblical," but then you go to some extra-Biblical source for your quotes. A lot.

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Because you said
"it is heartening to hear a Catholic describe themselves as a Priest; i was not aware that a Catholic could even hold this view?"

So I responded
"Of course Catholics hold this view. It's Biblical."
I didn't think you would need any proof that it was Biblical. But you seemed to doubt that it was actually a Catholic view because you said "I wonder how far i would have to go to find a Catholic who disagreed there".

I then quoted the Catechism to demonstrate that it was a Catholic view.