Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

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Dcopymope

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Dan57 said:
I don't believe God predetermines everything.. If that were so, why are we here? While God does predestine some people for a specific purpose, we all have free will and make our own choices. God surely knows the beginning from the end, but he doesn't know which souls will believe, because belief is a choice.
If God knows the future, then that has to include the choices you make regarding any and all things as well by default. He can't claim to know the beginning from the end of anything relevant to humanity if it doesn't include its choices. When Abraham pleaded with God to not reduce Sodom into fine dust if he could find one soul worth the dirt we stand on, its not like God didn't know Sodom's end from the beginning, God just decided to play along just to show Abrahams folly. He knew from the beginning that Abraham wouldn't find a soul because God see's all, including mans heart. He knew that nothing good can come out of allowing Sodom to continue to exist. If he had any doubts about it, he wouldn't have decided to burn it to crisp, but we all should know that "doubt" is not something thats apart of Gods character.
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
All you've basically done here is excerpt the connotations you want to run with to support your point of view and as such they don't really mean anything other than you refuse to see what you are so clearly shown.
The best thing to do when you want to cite a scholar is to put a link to the commentary so people can read it in its full context and not trust you to point out everything that is pertinent.
In my opinion, the best thing to do when defending your doctrine is to know it and be able to exegete it, not quote other exegetes who happen to be Calvinists.
Actually the first thing I have done here was correct your misunderstanding of the Greek. Then I posted commentary by scholars that exegete the Scripture.

Notice here you are explaining how you "defend your doctrine". This is actually eisegesis and you are admitting you do this. You clearly state, "know it (your doctrine) and be able to exegete it." Parenthesis added by me. In other words you are admitting you are coming to the text with your doctrinal presuppositions already imposed on the text.

I don't do that, I exegete the text, the Scripture. Through proper exegesis I form doctrine. This is where you and I differ. I am not attempting to defend a doctrine. I am presenting what the Scripture clearly states, context taken into account. If I am convinced of something in Scripture that discredits my doctrine, my doctrine changes. Scripture is the ruling authority for me, not doctrine.
 

StanJ

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justaname said:
Actually the first thing I have done here was correct your misunderstanding of the Greek. Then I posted commentary by scholars that exegete the Scripture.
Notice here you are explaining how you "defend your doctrine". This is actually eisegesis and you are admitting you do this. You clearly state, "know it (your doctrine) and be able to exegete it." Parenthesis added by me. In other words you are admitting you are coming to the text with your doctrinal presuppositions already imposed on the text.
I don't do that, I exegete the text, the Scripture. Through proper exegesis I form doctrine. This is where you and I differ. I am not attempting to defend a doctrine. I am presenting what the Scripture clearly states, context taken into account. If I am convinced of something in Scripture that discredits my doctrine, my doctrine changes. Scripture is the ruling authority for me, not doctrine.
The point is you have not exegeted the text, you've taken certain connotations out of the overall lexicon and use them to support your point of view. That is not the same thing. If you're going to be disingenuous in this regard then I can't really be bothered discussing anything with you because you are proving once again that you're not honest when you debate. This is not new, it's been happening ever since I got here. I'll let other people decide who is speaking the truth and who is not but as for this discussion I'm out. Everytime I take this up with you it ends up the same way so there really is no point in continuing this because you are definitely inculcated into your own distorted view of scripture.
 

justaname

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StanJ said:
The point is you have not exegeted the text, you've taken certain connotations out of the overall lexicon and use them to support your point of view. That is not the same thing. If you're going to be disingenuous in this regard then I can't really be bothered discussing anything with you because you are proving once again that you're not honest when you debate. This is not new, it's been happening ever since I got here. I'll let other people decide who is speaking the truth and who is not but as for this discussion I'm out. Everytime I take this up with you it ends up the same way so there really is no point in continuing this because you are definitely inculcated into your own distorted view of scripture.
I agree. No point in continuing the discussion as you are not interested in what the Scriptures say, only in defending your doctrine.

Shalom.
 

tom55

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cga said:
All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 [NIV])
The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6 [ESV])
For he wounds, but he also bandages; he strikes, but his hands also heal. (Job 5:18 [NETBIBLE])
“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39 [ESV])

For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

Even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:45 [NIV])

And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13 [NIV])

And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,

Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. (Luke 12:7 [NIV])

As such, it is in God that all live, exist, and even move,

for “‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, “‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ (Acts 17:28 [ESV])

Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44 [NIV])
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. (Proverbs 21:1 [ESV])
He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40 [ESV])

Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,

Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth powerful plagues against Egypt,

"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3 [NASB])
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17 [NIV])

In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. (Isaiah 13:13 [NIV])
Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:4-5 [NIV])

Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:3 [NIV])

And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])
And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (Romans 9:23 [NETBIBLE])
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 [NIV])
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

And also demonstrate his love,

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8 [NIV])

Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:2-3 [NIV])

And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,

Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])
Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of
the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4 [BSB])

This is also why the kingdom given to the chosen, or even the lake of fire where the wicked are thrown into, are all prepared by God, because what God has brought forth into existence is also staged and prepared for future times he has appointed,

And because God determines everything to be is why God has also staged and prepared what will come to be,

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. (Matthew 25:34 [NIV])
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41 [NIV])
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant.These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared." (Mark 10:40 [NIV])
The idea that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course sounds strange to me
He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13].

Since we are all predestined why even preach about salvation or the word of God? It doesn't matter if we hear it or not since we are predestined.

Since I was predestined to write this and disagree with you and you are predestined to reject anything that I say to disprove your theory it seems we are wasting our time. :unsure:
 

the_sign

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cga said:
We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

Even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,
***
Reply :

That determination by the LORD in church election was in some way, shape, and/or form slowly dissolved to direct appointment as regards the College of Cardinals.

We see the same thing in a popular vote election win by a candidate, yet the winner is made a loser, even though we are told that our vote counts.

But the part about the rising of the entire sun shows some hope in that the fixation of the time after the Three Days of Darkness shall always be with us.
 

cga

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tom55 said:
The idea that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course sounds strange to me
He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13].

Since we are all predestined why even preach about salvation or the word of God? It doesn't matter if we hear it or not since we are predestined.

Since I was predestined to write this and disagree with you and you are predestined to reject anything that I say to disprove your theory it seems we are wasting our time. :unsure:
Because in our own perception, everything.... actions, thoughts, and outside circumstances must play out. When we watch a movie, is the outcome of the movie not already determined? Has the script not already been written? Yet the movie must play out, it's plot must develop, and its actors must act, as we watch it play out, until we reach it reaches its final conclusion. Those who did evil, who were scripted to do so, will be punished. Those who did good, who were also scripted to do so, will be rewarded. Predestination does not nullify our need to act, it establishes that whatever acts we did were done as a result of a higher script determined upon us. And based on these actions scripted upon us, we will have either of two outcomes in the finality of this heaven and earth, life or death, in which case those who live will come to live in an entirely new script in a new heaven and new earth.
 

tom55

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cga said:
Because in our own perception, everything.... actions, thoughts, and outside circumstances must play out. When we watch a movie, is the outcome of the movie not already determined? Has the script not already been written? Yet the movie must play out, it's plot must develop, and its actors must act, as we watch it play out, until we reach it reaches its final conclusion. Those who did evil, who were scripted to do so, will be punished. Those who did good, who were also scripted to do so, will be rewarded. Predestination does not nullify our need to act, it establishes that whatever acts we did were done as a result of a higher script determined upon us. And based on these actions scripted upon us, we will have either of two outcomes in the finality of this heaven and earth, life or death, in which case those who live will come to live in an entirely new script in a new heaven and new earth.
Are you saying God wrote a script and now he is just sitting back and watching us all act out that script? If so, why did he send his Son to earth to die for our salvation? We choose Him or we choose eternal damnation. We have free will. Your movie script example makes no sense.

I don't understand how "those who did evil...were scripted to do so" and those "who did good...were scripted to do so" but predestination does not nullify our need to act? If I am predestined to be evil it doesn't matter HOW I act....I had no choice. If I am predestined to do good it doesn't matter how I act...I had no choice. You are saying I have no free will. I am a puppet and God is the puppet master?

You said, "Predestination does not nullify our need to act". If we are scripted to act then our decision not to act is nullified by the script. We can't go off script which means we have no free will. We are just following lines on a script and we do not have the free will to change those lines. Do you think we have no free will??

Scripture says The Lord does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2Peter 3:9). If I am predestined to perish then why would Jesus have hope that that I would repent? Did God not let Jesus in on his secret predestination decision? Or was Jesus predestined to hope in vain?

Jesus was sent to earth to save me but in reality He can't save me if I am already predestined by God to go to Hell?
 

cga

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tom55 said:
Are you saying God wrote a script and now he is just sitting back and watching us all act out that script? If so, why did he send his Son to earth to die for our salvation? We choose Him or we choose eternal damnation. We have free will. Your movie script example makes no sense.

I don't understand how "those who did evil...were scripted to do so" and those "who did good...were scripted to do so" but predestination does not nullify our need to act? If I am predestined to be evil it doesn't matter HOW I act....I had no choice. If I am predestined to do good it doesn't matter how I act...I had no choice. You are saying I have no free will. I am a puppet and God is the puppet master?

You said, "Predestination does not nullify our need to act". If we are scripted to act then our decision not to act is nullified by the script. We can't go off script which means we have no free will. We are just following lines on a script and we do not have the free will to change those lines. Do you think we have no free will??

Scripture says The Lord does not want anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2Peter 3:9). If I am predestined to perish then why would Jesus have hope that that I would repent? Did God not let Jesus in on his secret predestination decision? Or was Jesus predestined to hope in vain?

Jesus was sent to earth to save me but in reality He can't save me if I am already predestined by God to go to Hell?
God chose to send his son because that is part of the script, so that in all the wickedness God has appointed to exist, he may express his immense mercy upon the entire earth, that even in spite of our evil, he sent forth his son to die for us while still being sinners. Its not just an expression of mercy, but an expression of ultimate love for those that will end up being saved. The entire script is a masterpiece, all for the glory of God.

Yet the destiny of those whom he has not appointed to be saved will be destruction by a painful fire, not the "eternal torment" commonly taught in most churches. For there would be no purpose to eternally torture those whom God has already determined will be cast into the fiery lake. Their very purpose of existence is merely to demonstrate that God will punish those who do evil and reject him, whereas those whom he has chosen will carry on living always in the enjoyment of the goodness of God.

Also, have you not read what Jesus said, "many are called, but few are chosen"? Who do you suppose chooses, Jesus who wills for the entire world to be saved, or the Father, the one who actually brings forth the increase?

Also, free will is an illusion. What we do, and what our will is, are all subject to what God has appointed and willed. This is no different than me as a programmer telling a computer what to do and how to do. We are all programmed and wired to do what we are appointed to do. Call it puppets, call it slaves, whatever description suits your fancy, this is how it is. This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Understand this fearful thing, and you will begin to become wise. Reject it, and you will find yourself in darkened understanding as most are, wondering "why this" and "why that" never able to understand.
 

tom55

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cga said:
God chose to send his son because that is part of the script, so that in all the wickedness God has appointed to exist, he may express his immense mercy upon the entire earth, that even in spite of our evil, he sent forth his son to die for us while still being sinners. Its not just an expression of mercy, but an expression of ultimate love for those that will end up being saved. The entire script is a masterpiece, all for the glory of God.

Yet the destiny of those whom he has not appointed to be saved will be destruction by a painful fire, not the "eternal torment" commonly taught in most churches. For there would be no purpose to eternally torture those whom God has already determined will be cast into the fiery lake. Their very purpose of existence is merely to demonstrate that God will punish those who do evil and reject him, whereas those whom he has chosen will carry on living always in the enjoyment of the goodness of God.

Also, have you not read what Jesus said, "many are called, but few are chosen"? Who do you suppose chooses, Jesus who wills for the entire world to be saved, or the Father, the one who actually brings forth the increase?

Also, free will is an illusion. What we do, and what our will is, are all subject to what God has appointed and willed. This is no different than me as a programmer telling a computer what to do and how to do. We are all programmed and wired to do what we are appointed to do. Call it puppets, call it slaves, whatever description suits your fancy, this is how it is. This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Understand this fearful thing, and you will begin to become wise. Reject it, and you will find yourself in darkened understanding as most are, wondering "why this" and "why that" never able to understand.
Why would His Son need to die for us if we are already predestined? Wouldn't Jesus life and death be a waste if time if we are predestined to do what God wants us to do?

Did God say 'I am going to send you my Son and if you obey Him you will have eternal salvation....but really you have no choice to obey him or not because I have already predestined you to this script and your really going to do what I have written in this script. So I am sending my Son as kind of like a joke...you can follow him but it won't really matter. I have already decided if your going to hell or not.....??????'

Am I now and was Jesus then not just a robot acting out Gods script?

From whom do you get this theory? Did you come up with this on your own or are you reading someone else's writings?
 

cga

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tom55 said:
Why would His Son need to die for us if we are already predestined? Wouldn't Jesus life and death be a waste if time if we are predestined to do what God wants us to do?

Did God say 'I am going to send you my Son and if you obey Him you will have eternal salvation....but really you have no choice to obey him or not because I have already predestined you to this script and your really going to do what I have written in this script. So I am sending my Son as kind of like a joke...you can follow him but it won't really matter. I have already decided if your going to hell or not.....??????'

Am I now and was Jesus then not just a robot acting out Gods script?
Because everything God predestines comes with an order of events, in relation to time. God appointed that through the death of Jesus Christ, those whom he has appointed to be his, may be saved. He could've appointed another way, its his creation he does whatever he wants, but this is the way that he chose, and in this way that he chose he also expresses his mercy and love.
 

tom55

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cga said:
Because in our own perception, everything.... actions, thoughts, and outside circumstances must play out. When we watch a movie, is the outcome of the movie not already determined? Has the script not already been written? Yet the movie must play out, it's plot must develop, and its actors must act, as we watch it play out, until we reach it reaches its final conclusion. Those who did evil, who were scripted to do so, will be punished. Those who did good, who were also scripted to do so, will be rewarded. Predestination does not nullify our need to act, it establishes that whatever acts we did were done as a result of a higher script determined upon us. And based on these actions scripted upon us, we will have either of two outcomes in the finality of this heaven and earth, life or death, in which case those who live will come to live in an entirely new script in a new heaven and new earth.
Just because God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of what we are going to do it does not mean He has PREDESTINED us to do it.

I have FOREKNOWLEDGE that if I put my hand in fire it will burn me. That does not mean I am PREDESTINED to do it.

If I put a bowl of dirt and a bowl of ice cream in front of you I already know which one you will choose to eat. You have a choice, but I know which one you will choose. That does not mean you are predestined to eat the ice cream just because I already know you will. You made the choice to eat it.

I also know since you are predestined to believe in predestination nothing I write that will change your mind and nothing you write will change my mind. So why are we discussing this? <_<
 
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cga

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tom55 said:
Just because God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of what we are going to do it does not mean He has PREDESTINED us to do it.

I have FOREKNOWLEDGE that if I put my hand in fire it will burn me. That does not mean I am PREDESTINED to do it.

If I put a bowl of dirt and a bowl of ice cream in front of you I already know which one you will choose to eat. You have a choice, but I know which one you will choose. That does not mean you are predestined to eat the ice cream just because I already know you will. You made the choice to eat it.

I also know since you are predestined to believe in predestination nothing I write that will change your mind and nothing you write will change my mind. So why are we discussing this? <_<
God has both foreknowledge and has also predestined, hence,

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

I think its about time you stopped rejecting the truth and accept it, and perhaps we can move on to higher level topics. You can't understand greater matters if you do not understand predestination. :D
 

Dcopymope

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tom55 said:
Just because God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of what we are going to do it does not mean He has PREDESTINED us to do it.

I have FOREKNOWLEDGE that if I put my hand in fire it will burn me. That does not mean I am PREDESTINED to do it.

If I put a bowl of dirt and a bowl of ice cream in front of you I already know which one you will choose to eat. You have a choice, but I know which one you will choose. That does not mean you are predestined to eat the ice cream just because I already know you will. You made the choice to eat it.

I also know since you are predestined to believe in predestination nothing I write that will change your mind and nothing you write will change my mind. So why are we discussing this? <_<
This about sums up the OP's erroneous belief in predestination. I know that if I bash Trumps head in hard enough with a bat wrapped in barbed wire that its going to do some serious damage. Does that mean I'm predestined to do it? No, of course not
 

tom55

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cga said:
Because everything God predestines comes with an order of events, in relation to time. God appointed that through the death of Jesus Christ, those whom he has appointed to be his, may be saved. He could've appointed another way, its his creation he does whatever he wants, but this is the way that he chose, and in this way that he chose he also expresses his mercy and love.
How is he expressing mercy and love if he wrote a script that we have no choice but to follow that script? That's not mercy or love. That is a puppet and puppet master. There is no love or mercy involved.

If in His script I am destined to live a miserable life as a drunk, drug addicted child molester who ends up in prison and beaten by other inmates for being a child molester how is that God expressing love and mercy on me? Why was I destined to be beaten/addicted and you not?

Your theory causes more questions than answers.
 

cga

Member
Oct 24, 2016
98
2
8
Fort Lauderdale, FL
tom55 said:
How is he expressing mercy and love if he wrote a script that we have no choice but to follow that script? That's not mercy or love. That is a puppet and puppet master. There is no love or mercy involved.

If in His script I am destined to live a miserable life as a drunk, drug addicted child molester who ends up in prison and beaten by other inmates for being a child molester how is that God expressing love and mercy on me? Why was I destined to be beaten/addicted and you not?

Your theory causes more questions than answers.
It is not my theory, it is scripture. I didn't just one day invent this doctrine, I learned about it in scripture, hence all the scriptures I posted in this study, which you seemed to ignore. Everything in creation expresses different characteristics of God, for example... the uncountable amount of stars express his incredible power, or the diversity of how much he has created to where thousands of years later after creation we are still discovering new species of animals expresses how much higher he is than we are, or the fact that the worst of sinners exist and are not struck dead immediately expresses his mercy, the fact that he sent his son to die for sinners expresses his mercy and also love. To say that what God has appointed to be expresses nothing, such as mercy or love, is foolish.

Even so, not everyone is destined to receive mercy, only very few. Most of the world is appointed to be disobedient, and as such, most of the world will be burned up in a fiery end. I do not know what your destiny is, but I know that anyone that does not understand predestination and rejects it cannot be saved, for they lack full knowledge of God, and their rejection of this teaching is a demonstration of a hardening of their heart to reject this truth, which is caused by God. Anyone who ends up rejecting key doctrines such as this end up doing so because God has rejected them and disallowed them from coming to understanding. I do hope you do come to understand this truth and accept it buddy.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
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cga said:
God has both foreknowledge and has also predestined, hence,

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

I think its about time you stopped rejecting the truth and accept it, and perhaps we can move on to higher level topics. You can't understand greater matters if you do not understand predestination. :D
Paul states that we were “predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.” When will that happen?

Romans 8:28 gives us a reference to predestination to glory. We can also find the same usages in places where the term “predestination” does not appear but where synonyms, such as “choosing” and “election,” are used.

In 1 Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes to God’s elect who he says “have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.” The time we began to be obedient to Jesus and were sprinkled by his blood was when we first became Christians, so here we have a reference to choosing or election to grace.

In Matthew 22:14, we have Jesus himself telling of the man who got into God’s eschatological banquet without a wedding garment and how he was rejected from God’s eschatological banquet on the grounds that “many are called, but few are chosen.” But since this points to God’s eschatological banquet at the end of time we know this is a reference to choosing and election to glory.

If I am predestined how can I "stop rejecting the truth and accept it"? How can I stop doing something I am predestined to do???



How do you know you are not predestined to help me "understand greater matters"? Are you choosing to not help me or are you predestined to not help me?
 

cga

Member
Oct 24, 2016
98
2
8
Fort Lauderdale, FL
tom55 said:
Paul states that we were “predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son.” When will that happen?

Romans 8:28 gives us a reference to predestination to glory. We can also find the same usages in places where the term “predestination” does not appear but where synonyms, such as “choosing” and “election,” are used.

In 1 Peter 1:1-2, Peter writes to God’s elect who he says “have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood.” The time we began to be obedient to Jesus and were sprinkled by his blood was when we first became Christians, so here we have a reference to choosing or election to grace.

In Matthew 22:14, we have Jesus himself telling of the man who got into God’s eschatological banquet without a wedding garment and how he was rejected from God’s eschatological banquet on the grounds that “many are called, but few are chosen.” But since this points to God’s eschatological banquet at the end of time we know this is a reference to choosing and election to glory.

If I am predestined how can I "stop rejecting the truth and accept it"? How can I stop doing something I am predestined to do???



How do you know you are not predestined to help me "understand greater matters"? Are you choosing to not help me or are you predestined to not help me?
Did it not occur to you that you do not know what is predestined for you? When you watch a movie, even though it is scripted, do you know what will happen in every scene? No. The same with predestination, everything has already been decreed, and all we know to do is go right or go left, yet at the outcome of all things, what we ended up choosing and doing is what was scripted. Scripture proves this, look at all the scriptures I quoted. How many more times do I need to repeat myself for you to understand oh stubborn person?
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
cga said:
It is not my theory, it is scripture. I didn't just one day invent this doctrine, I learned about it in scripture, hence all the scriptures I posted in this study, which you seemed to ignore. Everything in creation expresses different characteristics of God, for example... the uncountable amount of stars express his incredible power, or the diversity of how much he has created to where thousands of years later after creation we are still discovering new species of animals expresses how much higher he is than we are, or the fact that the worst of sinners exist and are not struck dead immediately expresses his mercy, the fact that he sent his son to die for sinners expresses his mercy and also love. To say that what God has appointed to be expresses nothing, such as mercy or love, is foolish.

Even so, not everyone is destined to receive mercy, only very few. Most of the world is appointed to be disobedient, and as such, most of the world will be burned up in a fiery end. I do not know what your destiny is, but I know that anyone that does not understand predestination and rejects it cannot be saved, for they lack full knowledge of God, and their rejection of this teaching is a demonstration of a hardening of their heart to reject this truth, which is caused by God. Anyone who ends up rejecting key doctrines such as this end up doing so because God has rejected them and disallowed them from coming to understanding. I do hope you do come to understand this truth and accept it buddy.
So this exegesis of scripture about predestination has never happened before you did it? You came up with this on your own?

If we are predestined to reject predestination then is it really our fault? Isn't it Gods fault for writing the script that way?

How can I harden my heart and reject His truth if I am predestined to harden my heart and reject my truth?

You make it sound like I have a choice to 'REJECT his teaching' but in reality (according to your theory) I don't have a choice because I am predestined to reject it. How can I reject something if I have no choice in accepting it?
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
1,199
18
0
cga said:
Did it not occur to you that you do not know what is predestined for you? When you watch a movie, even though it is scripted, do you know what will happen in every scene? No. The same with predestination, everything has already been decreed, and all we know to do is go right or go left, yet at the outcome of all things, what we ended up choosing and doing is what was scripted. Scripture proves this, look at all the scriptures I quoted. How many more times do I need to repeat myself for you to understand oh stubborn person?
If I am predestined how can I "stop rejecting the truth and accept it"? How can I stop doing something I am predestined to do???

What we ended up choosing and doing is what was scripted by God? If it was scripted by God I did not choose...God did!!