What is the gospel?

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Mungo

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H. Richard said:
***
Don't forget that it was your trying to put me on the spot that has caused the responces I have given. If you hadn't tried to elevate yourself my replies would have been different. You could have just explained that the word paid/pay is not used but that other words that meant the same thing are used. But you just wanted to argue and you got one.

The children of God have placed their faith in the fact that Jesus paid (attoned) for their sins on the cross. Don't you think that to allude, in any way, that He didn't is being anti-christ? That is what your silly arguement has produced.

In the RCC a person goes to a Preist and confesses his/her sins and the Preist tells them what they can do to pay (attone) for those sins. Sins that were already paid for by Jesus on the cross. This is indicating that Jesus did not pay for those sins which, in my book, is denying that that Jesus paid (attoned) for the sins of the whole world. That is what I think.
Well you are wrong because you don't properly understand Catholic teaching. However as I have just told Weber_Home in another thread, it's late in England & I'm going away for a week tomorrow morning. So I have no more time to respond to this thread.

God bless
 

H. Richard

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Mungo said:
OK, let's continue.

We have a difference between the NKJV and the RSV. Which is correct?

'Paid' and 'Purchase' is very commercial language involving a buyer and a seller.

You said "The gospel is what Jesus did on the cross, on our behalf, to pay for our sins of the flesh."

How did Jesus buy these sins from us?
Heb 9:22
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
NKJV

Jesus shed his blood for the remission of sins for the whole world.
 

justaname

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skypair said:
Well, think about this: Did it really matter that you were guilty of Adam's sin or were depraved to the core when you heard the gospel, believed it, repented, and were saved? i'm suspecting that you were guilty of your own sins by that time and the Spirit didn't convict you of Adam's sin, right? It was your sin that had to be dealt with, right? had to be "reconciled to God" and His righteousness (2Cor 5:20). So how did you deal with it?

skypair
I am uncertain how this applies to the concept of total depravity. Yet to be reconciled to God is only through faith in Christ.

Let me add a bit of Scripture here concerning God's monergistic role in Salvation.

I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me; I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me. I said, "Here I am, here I am," to a nation that was not called by my name. - Isaiah 65:1

They have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. - Deuteronomy 32:21

What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; - Romans 9:30
 

skypair

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justaname said:
Let me add a bit of Scripture here concerning God's monergistic role in Salvation.
I would say that His monergistic role in salvation is that He created you in His SPIRITUAL image .. you are His offspring (Acts 17:26-27) .. you are your own Father, Spirit, and body. Then, by-and-by, He revealed Himself to you — first through the everlasting gospel (Ro 1:18-20) .. then through the gospel of Jesus Christ (1Cor 1:1-4).

The rest is up to you, my friend. How do you respond to God, your Judge? Do you simply believe what He says about your "sin issue?" Do you ignore Him in disbelief? or do you plead for mercy?

skypair
 

justaname

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skypair said:
I would say that His monergistic role in salvation is that He created you in His SPIRITUAL image .. you are His offspring (Acts 17:26-27) .. you are your own Father, Spirit, and body. Then, by-and-by, He revealed Himself to you — first through the everlasting gospel (Ro 1:18-20) .. then through the gospel of Jesus Christ (1Cor 1:1-4).

The rest is up to you, my friend. How do you respond to God, your Judge? Do you simply believe what He says about your "sin issue?" Do you ignore Him in disbelief? or do you plead for mercy?

skypair
This seems to be Morman theology...am I correct?

Those who are born into the family of Jesus Christ, the second Adam, respond in fath to the Judge. This our headship is changed and we are imputed His righteousness. Those who remain in the first Adam respond in disbelief and retain his sin. This is why we must be born again.
 

skypair

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justaname said:
This seems to be Morman theology…am I correct?
No. What I am claiming is the God created us1) innocent of sin and 2) to be our own gods until we realize that He is God, not us. Do you recall that David said (and Jesus repeated), "You are gods." What that meant was that we are born free moral agents like God. We decide/choose what our own morality will be. Most simply stick with their own "code of conduct," right? Few there be that choose salvation from themselves, their gods, through Christ.


Those who are born into the family of Jesus Christ, the second Adam, respond in fath to the Judge. This our headship is changed and we are imputed His righteousness. Those who remain in the first Adam respond in disbelief and retain his sin. This is why we must be born again.
That is a false narrative, justaname. We are not born until we repent taking ourselves off the throne of our lives (denying our own godliness) and plead for salvation in Christ Jesus. Then we are born again.

skypair
 

justaname

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skypair said:
This seems to be Morman theology…am I correct?
No. What I am claiming is the God created us1) innocent of sin and 2) to be our own gods until we realize that He is God, not us. Do you recall that David said (and Jesus repeated), "You are gods." What that meant was that we are born free moral agents like God. We decide/choose what our own morality will be. Most simply stick with their own "code of conduct," right? Few there be that choose salvation from themselves, their gods, through Christ.


Those who are born into the family of Jesus Christ, the second Adam, respond in fath to the Judge. This our headship is changed and we are imputed His righteousness. Those who remain in the first Adam respond in disbelief and retain his sin. This is why we must be born again.
That is a false narrative, justaname. We are not born until we repent taking ourselves off the throne of our lives (denying our own godliness) and plead for salvation in Christ Jesus. Then we are born again.

skypair
By responding in faith we are repenting, we give witness that Jesus is Lord, and like you said, not that we are Lord.

And I apologize I meant to ask if it is Mormon theology...just to verify, are you are certain it is not Mormon theology?
 

H. Richard

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Mungo said:
Well you are wrong because you don't properly understand Catholic teaching. However as I have just told Weber_Home in another thread, it's late in England & I'm going away for a week tomorrow morning. So I have no more time to respond to this thread.

God bless
***
I understand history and it is not on your side. The inquisitions are a matter of history. The RCC murdered William Tyndale, 1492-1536, because he printed the first Bible in the common laugauge and gave it to the people.

Murder is murder. The inquisitions of the RCC were murder. William Tyndale was burned at the stake, a fact that is covered in school history books and the English dictonary.

You can bury your head in the sand and refuse to see it but the RCC is guilty of murder.
 

skypair

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justaname said:
By responding in faith we are repenting, we give witness that Jesus is Lord, and like you said, not that we are Lord.

And I apologize I meant to ask if it is Mormon theology...just to verify, are you are certain it is not Mormon theology?
You said, "By responding in faith we are repenting,..." What does that look like? Are you saying that belief = repentance? It does .. but not the kind of repentance that saves. It's simply changing your mind.

But no. I'm not Mormon -- I'm traditional baptist. Do you know what that means?

skypair
 

justaname

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skypair said:
You said, "By responding in faith we are repenting,..." What does that look like? Are you saying that belief = repentance? It does .. but not the kind of repentance that saves. It's simply changing your mind.

But no. I'm not Mormon -- I'm traditional baptist. Do you know what that means?

skypair
Belief is just that, a believing that something is true. Faith is a trust, yet faith in itself is insufficient. I like this quote:

"It is not faith that saves, but faith in Jesus Christ.... It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves, but Christ that saves through faith. The saving power resides exclusively, not in the act of faith or the attitude of faith or in the nature of faith, but in the object of faith." - B. B. Warfield

This then places salvation in the person of Jesus Christ rather than in the activity of the human will. Assuredly it is God that saves, not that we in any way are able to save ourselves. Romans 9:16

Here then is another quote:
“Biblically speaking, faith is trust-filled surrender to God and His word of promise. In the new Testament, this trust involves acceptance of the apostolic witness concerning Christ and personal trust in Christ as Savior and risen, exalted Lord. In church history, however, as is the case of Rome, faith was often reduced to intellectual assent. Personal assurance was decidedly secondary and often lost altogether. For Calvin, faith was personal confidence in God’s benevolence towards us “revealed to our minds and sealed on our hearts” by the Holy Spirit. The Reformation, however, did make it clear that knowledge was not to be set aside. Knowledge and trust, intellect and will, were both included in the understanding of faith.” - Herman Bavinck

So then in faith there is a fullness of intellect and will in the action of surrender or repentance. We are not beholden to ourselves for the righteousness we posses, rather in regards to righteousness we exchange our failed human experience and don the righteousness of Christ. Thus when I say the response of faith embodies repentance I understand a repentance of intellect and of disposition or will.

1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Now I have an idea of a traditional baptist, yet I would rather your take on what you mean by that. Thanks!

BTW: I do not meant to prod in regards to your denomination, rather I am attempting to gain a greater understanding of your position. Thank you for your patience and kindness in your responses.
 

skypair

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justaname said:
Belief is just that, a believing that something is true. Faith is a trust, yet faith in itself is insufficient. I like this quote:

"It is not faith that saves, but faith in Jesus Christ.... It is not, strictly speaking, even faith in Christ that saves, but Christ that saves through faith. The saving power resides exclusively, not in the act of faith or the attitude of faith or in the nature of faith, but in the object of faith." - B. B. Warfield[/quote
Yes, I like that too. And belief does not equal faith. Excellent!

This then places salvation in the person of Jesus Christ rather than in the activity of the human will. Assuredly it is God that saves, not that we in any way are able to save ourselves. Romans 9:16


Here then is another quote:
“Biblically speaking, faith is trust-filled surrender to God and His word of promise. In the new Testament, this trust involves acceptance of the apostolic witness concerning Christ and personal trust in Christ as Savior and risen, exalted Lord. In church history, however, as is the case of Rome, faith was often reduced to intellectual assent. Personal assurance was decidedly secondary and often lost altogether. For Calvin, faith was personal confidence in God’s benevolence towards us “revealed to our minds and sealed on our hearts” by the Holy Spirit. The Reformation, however, did make it clear that knowledge was not to be set aside. Knowledge and trust, intellect and will, were both included in the understanding of faith.” - Herman Bavinck
What I find is the both RCC and Calvinism call for intellectual assent to salvation. Know why? Because neither one separated the functions of the spirit (mind, emotions, and will) from those of the soul (heart, conscience, and nature). Thus spirit and soul remain in "tension" (Heb 4:12) .. "divided asunder." With their minds they believe but in their soul is only faith in what they believe .. not in Christ Himself. They have not repented in accordance with 2Cor 10:5-6 committing themselves to Christ as Lord and Savior. "Casting down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God [sacraments, election] , and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Chrsit."

So then in faith there is a fullness of intellect and will in the action of surrender or repentance. We are not beholden to ourselves for the righteousness we posses, rather in regards to righteousness we exchange our failed human experience and don the righteousness of Christ. Thus when I say the response of faith embodies repentance I understand a repentance of intellect and of disposition or will.
Yes, good. Repentance of the intellect, spirit + disposition of the heart or soul through commitment.


Now I have an idea of a traditional baptist, yet I would rather your take on what you mean by that. Thanks!
Traditional baptists are more like semi-Pelagians whereas, standing in opposition are Calvinist baptists. It's not, as some think, the distinction between evangelical baptists and fundamentalist baptists.


BTW: I do not meant to prod in regards to your denomination, rather I am attempting to gain a greater understanding of your position. Thank you for your patience and kindness in your responses.
That's fine. I didn't know till recently that I was a traditional baptist. I was on a board 360Roundtable for traditional baptists. Most of them were pastors, seminary students/grads, those in the ministry, profs, etc. They were seeing the SBC being taken over by Calvinism and were not a little concerned going into the 2016 convention. Rather than being saved by election, trads believe we are saved by praying to God in repentance and asking to be saved.
 

H. Richard

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Mungo said:
Acts 20:28
Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God[a] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. (RSV)
***
Acts 20:28-31
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
NKJV

Verses 29-31 show the rest of the story.


Heb 9:11-15
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
NKJV
 

kerwin

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H. Richard said:
***
I understand history and it is not on your side. The inquisitions are a matter of history. The RCC murdered William Tyndale, 1492-1536, because he printed the first Bible in the common laugauge and gave it to the people.

Murder is murder. The inquisitions of the RCC were murder. William Tyndale was burned at the stake, a fact that is covered in school history books and the English dictonary.

You can bury your head in the sand and refuse to see it but the RCC is guilty of murder.
You may want to test your conclusions but the Spanish inquisitions happened to enacted by the government of Spain using clergy. The Ruling monarch's were Roman Catholics and it replaced the Medieval Inquisition that the Roman Catholic Churches responsibility. The Spanish Inquisition was more infamous.

Protesters were not innocent of atrocities either. Michael Servetus was burned at the stake by John Calvin and his congregation. It is the nature of the beast to do evil.

Why do you care since your doctrine is that as long as the ones that do evil have faith they are righteous in the eyes of God. That looks like you are judging those you claim God finds righteous.

I on the other hand say they must repent or they will be found wanting on that day because their actions reveal that their heart is far from God though though the mouth call him Lord.
 

H. Richard

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kerwin said:
You may want to test your conclusions but the Spanish inquisitions happened to enacted by the government of Spain using clergy. The Ruling monarch's were Roman Catholics and it replaced the Medieval Inquisition that the Roman Catholic Churches responsibility. The Spanish Inquisition was more infamous.

Protesters were not innocent of atrocities either. Michael Servetus was burned at the stake by John Calvin and his congregation. It is the nature of the beast to do evil.

Why do you care since your doctrine is that as long as the ones that do evil have faith they are righteous in the eyes of God. That looks like you are judging those you claim God finds righteous.

I on the other hand say they must repent or they will be found wanting on that day because their actions reveal that their heart is far from God though though the mouth call him Lord.
***
So if others do it the RCC is justified, right? Murder is murder. I am aware that Calvin, throught the Spainish Gov,, had Jews and Catholics put to death. But neither the Protestants or the Catholics are justified to commit murder. Nor are the Muslims justified when they murder others.

You seem to place me in a religion. I do not believe Jesus came on ths earth just to set up a new and improved religion ran by men. The unique thing about the children of God is that they have faith in what God did for them on the cross. Not in themselves. Take away this unigue fact and all you have is a religion ran by men.

In all religions it is all about what men do for the god they think exists. True Christianity is about what God has done for man.

You said, "Why do you care since your doctrine is that as long as the ones that do evil have faith they are righteous in the eyes of God. That looks like you are judging those you claim God finds righteous."

Jesus came to save sinners. Only a person who thinks they do not sin any longer can say what you just said. I have not judged anyone. The word of God has already done that.

You quoted Acts 20:28 and I gave you the rest on the scriptures 29-31
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
NKJV

In my opinion verses 29-31 show what happened to all the Christian religions when men started to say that their works save them. It ignores what God did. As for your idea that only the (self) righteous can be saved. Don't you understand that God paid for all of mankinds sins on the cross and because of that He can call sinners righteous in His eyes. He calls the unrighteous to be righteous. Read the scripture.

1 Cor 1:27-31
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption —
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
NKJV
 

kerwin

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H. Richard said:
***
So if others do it the RCC is justified, right? Murder is murder. I am aware that Calvin, throught the Spainish Gov,, had Jews and Catholics put to death. But neither the Protestants or the Catholics are justified to commit murder. Nor are the Muslims justified when they murder others.

You seem to place me in a religion. I do not believe Jesus came on ths earth just to set up a new and improved religion ran by men. The unique thing about the children of God is that they have faith in what God did for them on the cross. Not in themselves. Take away this unigue fact and all you have is a religion ran by men.

In all religions it is all about what men do for the god they think exists. True Christianity is about what God has done for man.

You said, "Why do you care since your doctrine is that as long as the ones that do evil have faith they are righteous in the eyes of God. That looks like you are judging those you claim God finds righteous."

Jesus came to save sinners. Only a person who thinks they do not sin any longer can say what you just said. I have not judged anyone. The word of God has already done that.

You quoted Acts 20:28 and I gave you the rest on the scriptures 29-31
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
NKJV

In my opinion verses 29-31 show what happened to all the Christian religions when men started to say that their works save them. It ignores what God did. As for your idea that only the (self) righteous can be saved. Don't you understand that God paid for all of mankinds sins on the cross and because of that He can call sinners righteous in His eyes. He calls the unrighteous to be righteous. Read the scripture.

1 Cor 1:27-31
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God — and righteousness and sanctification and redemption —
31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
NKJV
I find your teachings to be perverse as the bottom line is they are about justify evil and not justifying the sinner for they are not designed to make the sinner just but rather ease the conscious of his continuing to sin.

If I understand you correct then those that continue to commit murder are justified because they have faith.

If, instead, I am mistaken them my impressions of your teachings are also wrong.

There is no reason to bash Roman Catholics for the sins of their fathers; some of which the church now condemns as barbaric. Atheists do the same thing and when they do so what is your response. Even the Medeval Inquisitions did not involve all the Roman Catholic Church and most likely had distractors in the church as they ended. What we are to learn is that the desires of the beast within each of us lead to evil and that beast cannot be tolerated but must be put to death. Jesus is the Way.
 

H. Richard

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kerwin said:
I find your teachings to be perverse as the bottom line is they are about justify evil and not justifying the sinner for they are not designed to make the sinner just but rather ease the conscious of his continuing to sin.

If I understand you correct then those that continue to commit murder are justified because they have faith.

If, instead, I am mistaken them my impressions of your teachings are also wrong.

There is no reason to bash Roman Catholics for the sins of their fathers; some of which the church now condemns as barbaric. Atheists do the same thing and when they do so what is your response. Even the Medeval Inquisitions did not involve all the Roman Catholic Church and most likely had distractors in the church as they ended. What we are to learn is that the desires of the beast within each of us lead to evil and that beast cannot be tolerated but must be put to death. Jesus is the Way.
***
You seem to take what I say as a condemnation of just the RCC. I have made it clear that all religions do the same things. Jesus was mudered by the religious. Stephen was murded by the religious. I am not of any religion.

The Label (name) of Christian is applied to any church that say they are Christian and since all they teach is the social/moral gospel they no longer teach the shed blood of Jesus on the cross as the soul means of salvation. I do not wear the label. I am a child of God; made one because I have placed my belief, faith, trust and confidence in what Jesus did for me on the cross. I believe in God's promise of salvation by believing in HIM.

You said, "If I understand you correct then those that continue to commit murder are justified because they have faith." Are you justified when you commit a sin? You think murder is a greater sin than what you do. To God telling a false idea about another is just as bad. There are many on the social and Christian networks that prey on the weak and condemn everyone that does not belief as they do. Just as you are. But I suppose, to you, they can be forgiven more easliy than murder. But you are not God and your condemnation is that of the religious that think they never sin.

You said, "I find your teachings to be perverse " I find your teachings, in my opinion, to be false and do not give any glory to what Jesus did on the cross. You never teach the shed blood as the means of attoning/paying for sins. You seem, to me, to glory in your self-righteousness.
 

skypair

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justaname said:
By responding in faith we are repenting, we give witness that Jesus is Lord, and like you said, not that we are Lord.

And I apologize I meant to ask if it is Mormon theology...just to verify, are you are certain it is not Mormon theology?
Absolutely not.

This issue of repentance has gotten a bit misunderstood. There are 3 forms of repentance. 1) "By responding in [belief] we are repenting" = changing our mind, our spirit (mind, emotions, and will) 2) By repenting to God with a "broken heart [soul] and a contrite spirit," Psa 34:18 = changing our heart, our soul (which is what needs saving to begin with .. Isa 1:21, 5:20, Heb 10:38-39). Lastly 3), there is repentance of behavior where we quit committing a particular sin per 2Cor 7:9-11.

Now as you probably know, changing your mind about Christ (you could be believing the wrong thing) and changing your behavior ("works") do not save. The only thing that saves is going to God, Himself, in prayer repentantly asking for salvation.

skypair
 

justaname

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skypair said:
Absolutely not.

This issue of repentance has gotten a bit misunderstood. There are 3 forms of repentance. 1) "By responding in [belief] we are repenting" = changing our mind, our spirit (mind, emotions, and will) 2) By repenting to God with a "broken heart [soul] and a contrite spirit," Psa 34:18 = changing our heart, our soul (which is what needs saving to begin with .. Isa 1:21, 5:20, Heb 10:38-39). Lastly 3), there is repentance of behavior where we quit committing a particular sin per 2Cor 7:9-11.

Now as you probably know, changing your mind about Christ (you could be believing the wrong thing) and changing your behavior ("works") do not save. The only thing that saves is going to God, Himself, in prayer repentantly asking for salvation.

skypair
God is the one who saves, not our actions or choices. It is through His grace that we repent (change what it is we think about the person and work of Christ) and receive faith. Grace is unmerited favor. What you are falsely presenting is we merit salvation through repentance. This is a gospel of works and is denied in the Scriptures. Scripture presents this from Romans:

For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

It is in and by the grace of God we come to a faith through which He dispenses salvation. Salvation is a monergistic action of God.