Was Peter Pope???

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Letsgofishing

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I don't quite know If I agree with this catholic teaching. I definitley agree with Peter being established the authority of the christian Church by Jesus himself. but that his authority has been passed on until this day???? I don't know. and that the pope 100% authentically interprets scriptures??? according to my belief the popes screwed up a couple times ( ascension of mary, venial and mortal sins ect.) but in any case here it isApostolic authority Peter and The papacy In the OT, when God established his covenat with the nation of isreal, He provided for a living, continuing authority in the mosiac priesthood. 11 "Amariah the chief priest will be over you in any matter concerning the LORD, and Zebadiah son of Ishmael, the leader of the tribe of Judah, will be over you in any matter concerning the king, and the Levites will serve as officials before you. Act with courage, and may the LORD be with those who do well." ( 2 Chr 19:11) 7 "For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, and from his mouth men should seek instruction—because he is the messenger of the LORD Almighty. ( Mal 2:7) This authority did not end when the OT scripture was written; rather, it continued as the safeguard and authentic interpreter of sacred scriptureWhen Christ established his Church, the New Isreal, He set up a living, continuing authority to teach, govern, and sanctify in His name This living authority is called "apostolic". Thi is because it began with the twelve apostles and continued with thier succesors. It was this Apostolic Authority that would preserve and authentically interpret the Revelation of Jesus Christ This same apostolic authority determined the canon of the bible , and will preserve the teachings of Jesus Christ in all thier fullness, and uncorrupted from error, until the end of time Among the twelve apostles, St. Peter is clearly the head. We learn so in Mathew 16: 13-19. 13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." ( Mathew verses 18-19) Jesus changes Simons name to Peter which means "rock" ( in aramic not in greek, changed to Kepha not Petra) Our lord says this Rock will be Gods way of preserving the church from corruption until the end of time. Our Lord Knew St. Peter would be dead by A.D 70. Therefore Christ must have intented the office of Peter to lst until the end of time. St. Peter is given the " keys to the kingdom of heaven."This is an awesome gift. To nobody else does Christ give this ruling power. We should reflect on this unique privilege instead of trying, by verbal acrobatics, to explain away the title of "Peter". Why would Jesus give this tremendous authority to St. Peter and not intend it to be passed on. If the early Christians needed an authoritative leader, later Christians would need one even more. After all many of the early christians heard the gospel from Christ himself and knew the apostles personally. After all the apostles died the church would have even greater need of the power of the keys when enemies would try to corrupt the teachings of christ.Although all the apotles as a group were given the power " to bind and to loose in Mt 18:18, St. Peter recieved this power individually at the time he was given "the keys." Jesus would not have guranteed to back up the doctrinal teachings of St. Peter and his succesors unless He was going to protect them from teaching false doctrine in thier official capacities as sheperds as the church In luke 22: 31-32 Jesus prays that Peters faith would not fail; Peter in turn would strenghthen the other disciples. 31"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you[a] as wheat. 32But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers." ( Luke 22: 31-32)and In John 21:15-17 Jesus clearly makes Peter the sheperd of his church. 15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. ( John 21:15-17)So St. Peter is the rock on which Jesus build his church. He is given the keys of the kingdom and he is made the sheperd of christs flock: solid biblical evidence that Jesus Made St. Peter the first Pope. The popes are heads of christ church while christ is the invisible and supreme head. Acts 15 gives an account of the first church council, the council of Jeruselum. Called at the request of St. Paul, this council met to decide wheter the geniles had to follow the law of moses as well as the law of Christ. The Council at Jerusalem 1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. 5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." 6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 12The whole assembly became silent and they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: 16" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' 18that have been known for ages.[c] 19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." ( a portion of acts 15.)Notice that there was much discussion among the apostes and the presbyters. However after peter spoke the assembly fell silent His statement ended the discussion. This council obviously considered St. Peters authority final. Some protestants claim that acts 15 shows that James, not peter was the head of the church. Since James the Less( Not James, the brother of John.) gives the concluding remarks at the council of Jeruselum and also recomends some marriage amd dietary regulations for the gentiles, They conclude that James must be the head of the church.To debate this we turn to the gospels, Where St. Peter is unmistakably presented as a leader among the apostles whereas St. James the less is not. Read the first twelce chapters of acts. Every Chapter ( except 6 and 7, which describe Stephens martyrdom) shows St. Peter in a leadership postition while St. James appears only briefly and never in a leadership role. In Galalations 1:18-19 we are told that Paul went to Jeruselum after his conversation specifically to confer with Peter. He stayed with Peter for 15 days. In contrast Paul visited James only briefly during this time. 18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother. ( galation 1:18-19)At the council of Jeruselum in Acts 15, it was St. Peters statement that settled the serious doctrinal dispute that was the reason for the council. As we saw earlier St. Peters statements silenced the assembly of presbyters and the apostles ( including James)We know from Church History that James was the bishop of Jeruselum and, As acts 21: 15-25 describes, he was concerned for Jewish Christians in Jeruselum who felt thier ancient customs threatened by the great number of Gentile converts. This background explains why St. James made the concluding remarks at the council and asked the Gentiles to respect certain Jewish practices. People are grasping at straws when they claim that act 15 proves that James, instead of Peter, was the head of the church.People will often cite 1 peter 5:1 to claim Peter was not the head of the church.1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed:( 1 Peter5:1)They note Peter, in addressing some elders ( church leaders) calls himself a fellow elder. They therefore conclude that Peter had no more authority than any other elder. But this is just like the president of the united Staes saying " my fellow americans." This certainly would not indictate that the president has no more authority than an ordinary citizen. As an apostle Saint Peter certainly considers his authority greater than that of an ordinary elder. After all Peter goes on to teach these "fellow elders" as one having authority over them in 1 peter 5: 2-42Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.( 1 Pet5:2-4)In calling them fellow elders , St. Peter is simply acknowledging the obvious: like himself they are also church leaders. For people to insist that peter, as an apostle, had no greater authority than an ordinary elder, shows how little they apprectiate what the scriptures says about the great office of Apostle.Many people quote Gal 2:11-14as well trying to show that peter was not infallible and that paul did not consider him the head of the church. 11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? ( Gal 2:11-14) This position is not supportable. First of all if they think Peter was not infallible, why do they accept his two leeters as inspired and therefore infallible? We must accept that all the apostles are infallible. After the apostles, the popes individually and the bishops as a group in union with the pope are infallible. St. Paul correcting Saint Peter for weak Behavior is no different from Saint Catherine of Siena correcting weak popes in the middle ages. There was no doctrine involved. St. Peter himself settled the doctrinal point at the council of Jeruselum. St. Paul correct Peter for being unwilling to confront the Judaizers from Jeruselum. Remember, St. Paul was among those who fell silent at the council of Jeruselum when Peter spoke. Consider this question. Suppose that the owner of a company had called all the employees together and announced that he was going to be gone for a while. During his absence he was going to give the keys of his company to his vice president John Doe, and whatever John Doe commanded would be backed by him. Would you have any dbout that John Doe was going to be the boss is away. Then Why can't we accept that this is exactley what is described in Mt:16-13-19Like I said I don't fully agree with this, so I'm going to have to ask my fellow catholics on this board to challenge us other christians.your brother in christRyan Fitz
 

Letsgofishing

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now for my own complaints against this teaching "Jesus would not have guranteed to back up the doctrinal teachings of St. Peter and his succesors unless He was going to protect them from teaching false doctrine in thier official capacities as sheperds as the church."That was before the church split into 33,000 different churches and 32,999 of the christian churches refused to listen to him. what happened The popes authority over all of christianity. the only answer which supports this is that the Roman Catholic church is the only actual Christian church. and we all know that is not true. "After the apostles, the popes individually and the bishops as a group in union with the pope are infallible."I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why the teaching of the ascension of Mary is correct. because there is no biblical evidence at all and if God thought it was appropriate to mention a mere prophet was ascended into heaven, why couldn't he do the same for Mary the Mother of God, the holiest person ( except for Jesus) who ever lived. Because if you can't give me some answer than how can we suport the popes infallibility???
 

Christina

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I just watched a speacial on the History channel Peter died 313 years before there ever was an offical leagl church Christianity was against the Law thats why christains were fed to the loins in Rome so adopting Peter as the first Pope does not mean God intended it to be so. Again men trying to claim what isnt true.And Mary just died like everyone else
 

Jordan

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No Peter was not the first pope. Nowhere in the bible says that. If Peter was, do you think God would have mention it in the bible.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

Letsgofishing

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I believe peter was the first leader of the catholic church, what I wrote on my first post I think backs that up quite well with scriptural evidence. What I have a problem with is the infallibility, especially today because Popes have obviously been wrong on things, even doctrinal.
 

Christina

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Yes but there was no direct connection to the current Catholic church and Peterbecause christanity was illgeal there was no offical chuch for some 300 years after Peter there were only small groups meeting in houses. Which ever Goup came together at the time the church was formed only claimed it was led by Peters teachings earlier there is no proof of that.And the corruption had already started like the Pagon day of Easter which is based on the goddess of Ishtar the fertility goddess (thus the egg). There is no where in history or scripture that ever says any man even one called Pope is infalable. That is a myth,Many popes murderd each other they were amoung the most blood thirsty, power hungry men of history to each other. If they were willing to make a Pagon holiday a christain holiday that early on they would have comprimised just about anything to gain and keep power. I am sure they justified this by claiming ( and even believing) it was what God wanted but the point is it was corrupted from nearly the beginnig the corruption only grew to the point they had to come with their own bible to justify what they taught because it couldnt be proved in scriptures or it could be disproved in scripture either way they had to rewrite the Word. Thus we have things like the corupt Mary teachings.Pagon holidays,ect. So you can not claim the catholic church is based on Peters teachings by the time the first Pope of the current Day Roman catholic church was appointed in 606 corruption was already abound they had already broken scripture as no where are we told by Peter or anyone else to celbrate the Resurrection. Even when we read Peters Words there is not much catholic in themthey had already gone their own way.Around the year A.D. 45, Peter went to Rome and assumed control of the church. During the persecution of Christians by the emperor Nero, Peter was imprisoned and scourged. He gave his farewell blessing to all of his flock, and especially to Saint Paul, who was going to be beheaded the same day outside Rome. He was then led to the top of Vatican Mount to be executed by crucifixion. Deeming himself to be unworthy to die in the same position as our Lord, he asked to be crucified upside down. He received his eternal reward on June 29 in the year 67. Two hundred sixty six popes have succeeded Peter since. For the next 300 years, Rome would begin a serious persecution against the truth. Christians began to meet behind closed doors and gradual changes were made. Elders of the church were known as bishops, and by the close of the third century; each congregation of any size had a bishop as its head, with a group of elders under him. No work was to be done on Sunday. In 306, Constantine became sole emperor of Rome. His mother Helena became a Christian and urged Constantine to ease up on the persecution of Christians. He decided that Christianity would now be the state religion. Finding much division in the church, he decided to call a meeting to be held in Nicaea in May 325 A.D. to discuss and unite over the issues that divided the church. Three hundred eighteen bishops assembled and established the Nicene Creed. Several doctrines were decreed. (1) The Oneness of Deity (2) Easter to be celebrated on the same day (3) Preachers not to be married (4) Certain meats not to be eaten on Sunday by bishops (5) A greater recognition given to the bishops of Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, Rome, and Jerusalem. These bishops would be patriarchs, and all authority would be under them. In A.D. 606, Boniface III was given the title "universal bishop," the pope of Rome. The word "pope" means father. This marked the beginning of the Roman Catholic Church.
 

Letsgofishing

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and if all of the christians of that time made the catholic church then the one and only christian church around was the catholic church, therefor making it the first and only christian church until when Martin Luther came and all heck broke loose.Therefore it isn't much of a step to call the early christians catholic. stop getting so technical
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You weren't so clear though do you believe Peter was the authority of the early christians? If you are, remarkably were on the same page on an issue. ( If only I could agree with Jag
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)your brother in christRyan Fitz
 

Christina

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No Im saying that how do we know what church was Peters as after Peters death for three hundred years there was thousands of small groups of christains because there was no officail church. Any one of these groups could claim to the one that was started by Peter
 

Christina

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Even if all the groups came together at one point under one church how do you know which half was following more closely to Peters teachings???? It could have been the protestants that wanted to stick more with Peters teaching which certainly seems to be the case if you are going by scripture. As the catholics finally had to write their own book rather than go by the Bible. Because so much of what they say isnt there. The prodestants then followed suit and went out there own and away from Gods Word and more towards men also. Both are equally corrupt . Thats why we must get back to the Word and away from corupt mens ideas even if the men are called Pope. did not mean to get to tecnical for ya
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n2thelight

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The word "Pope" means "Father." To use the word "Father" as a title was forbidden by Jesus Christ, as were some of the practices that characterize the papacy. Matthew 23:5-12 says, "But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."Peter would never have accepted the title "Father" or "Pope," because Peter believed in Jesus Christ and obeyed His words. I do not think that popes today necessarily recognize that this is disobedience, because like all Catholics, they are conditioned to believe that it is all right for tradition to override Scripture. But Christ’s view was, "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3b). Both the behavior described here by Christ and the blasphemous title reflect the disobedience of those who have occupied the position of pope.
 

Letsgofishing

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How do we know Peter was the leader of the churchBecause Jesus gave him this duty.15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. ( John 21:15-17) Jesus proclaims himself many times the great sheperd. Here he's appointing a sheperd to guide his church when He's away. as we all like to debate Christ appointed Peter as the rock which he will build his church. 13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." ( Mathew verses 18-19) Now a common debate against this is that the name of peter in greek in petros a masculine noun, while the name of a rock is petras a female noun therefore Peter couldn't be the rock. But on the contrary in aramic the name for Rock and peter are both Kepha so therefore that argument is invalid. hows that for technical
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your brother in christRyan Fitz
 

TallMan

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(Letsgofishing;28520)
How do we know Peter was the leader of the churchBecause Jesus gave him this duty.15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. ( John 21:15-17) Jesus proclaims himself many times the great sheperd. Here he's appointing a sheperd to guide his church when He's away.
Nonsense! The whole point of Jesus taking man's sin is so that we can ALL receive HIS SPIRIT to personally into all truth.Peter had just denied Jesus three times, Jesus' three-fold command shows his complete ability to forgive and make people able to opvercome their failings.Paul says to ALL the elders at Ephesus "over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God" (Acts 20:28)Peter says to other elders "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof" (1 Peter 5:2)Interesting that when the church council meets in Acts 15, it is James not Peter that gives the final speech:-:13: And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me::14: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.and James is mentioned first here:-"And when James, Cephas [Peter], and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision" (Gal. 2:9).Peter was the first to use the keys (the truths) that open the kingdom of heaven to people. Jesus tells all his followers to go into all the world and use the same keys, bringing the same salvation to people - through repentance, followed by baptism and receiving God's Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues.By teaching differently, Rome shuts the kingdom to those that rely on her! But many people want to follow her!(Letsgofishing;28520)
as we all like to debate Christ appointed Peter as the rock which he will build his church. 13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." ( Mathew verses 18-19) Now a common debate against this is that the name of peter in greek in petros a masculine noun, while the name of a rock is petras a female noun therefore Peter couldn't be the rock. But on the contrary in aramic the name for Rock and peter are both Kepha so therefore that argument is invalid.
You don't know that Jesus didn't deliberately use some greek here (just like we English speakers sometimes use french or german words or phrases to better describe something).Matthew and those that were actually there, chose to write in Greek and did show different words.They heard the inflexion in Jesus speech and saw any body language / hand movement which you don't by just reading the words.When the Lord changed Simon’s name to Peter, he employed a Hellenized form of the term that is masculine in gender, kephas -John 1:42: And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.[url="http://www.gpcredding.org/petra.html]This article[/url] shows that Classic Greek authors (before the New Testament was written) treat the words PETROS and PETRA as two different words.Similarly, Rome's Latin Vulgate Bible which the Council of Trent declared to be "holy and canonical" renbers Matthew 18:16:-"That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"as"Tu es PETRUS et super hanc PETRAM aldificabo ecclesiam meanor"The words have different genders and Christ uses pronouns of different person. Petros has a second person pronoun as a companion, while petra is used with a third person pronoun.Peter describes all members of the church as "living stones", Christ being the chief cornerstone (1 Peter 2:4-7)If the man Peter really is the reliable Rock, what about this, 5 verses later?M't:16:23: But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. . . looks more like a turnable stone to me! and of course he compromised by not eating with the gentiles after be received the Spirit.The idea that Jesus is setting up a second earthly head to his spiritual church is utter nonsense to anyone who believes all the other scriptures on the subject. People that have the Spirit of God to lead them don't need an earthly head, they have the mind of Christ!It is only people that don't have or don't appreciate these basic truths that will follow a man!It is also interesting that Mark's account (8:29-30) of this dialogue completely misses it out, which is bizarre if it is such a momentous thing!
 

Faithful

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The Lord taught us to serve us others as he did. Peter would never have accepted a position that placed him over others but would of washed the feet of others and served them as his master did.Peter was not the first pope and he never had anything to do with Rome till his death. Paul was the one who went to Rome.Love one another as I have loved you. Jesus the Son of the most high God born in a stable do you think Peter would of approved of the vatican or the way the pope lives? Peter knew that Gods love is agape where we do things as Christ. Firstly we love God as he did and we love others as he did. Christ gave everything, most believers will never have to, but to believe Peter could be a pope would not show him doing as Christ did. Serving others. Faithful.
 

Letsgofishing

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Thanks Tallman, that was by far the best post in the forum.The only question I'm able to fully answer without researching is nthis question as I devoted about two paragraphs on it on the first paragraph.you said Interesting that when the church council meets in Acts 15, it is James not Peter that gives the final speech:-:13: And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me::14: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.I said Acts 15 gives an account of the first church council, the council of Jeruselum.Called at the request of St. Paul, this council met to decide wheter the geniles had to follow the law of moses as well as the law of Christ. The Council at Jerusalem 1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them. 5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses." 6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." 12The whole assembly became silent and they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: 16" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, 17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things' 18that have been known for ages.[c] 19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." ( a portion of acts 15.)Notice that there was much discussion among the apostes and the presbyters. However after peter spoke the assembly fell silent His statement ended the discussion. This council obviously considered St. Peters authority final. Some protestants claim that acts 15 shows that James, not peter was the head of the church. Since James the Less( Not James, the brother of John.) gives the concluding remarks at the council of Jeruselum and also recomends some marriage amd dietary regulations for the gentiles, They conclude that James must be the head of the church.To debate this we turn to the gospels, Where St. Peter is unmistakably presented as a leader among the apostles whereas St. James the less is not. Read the first twelce chapters of acts. Every Chapter ( except 6 and 7, which describe Stephens martyrdom) shows St. Peter in a leadership postition while St. James appears only briefly and never in a leadership role. In Galalations 1:18-19 we are told that Paul went to Jeruselum after his conversation specifically to confer with Peter. He stayed with Peter for 15 days. In contrast Paul visited James only briefly during this time.18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter[a] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother. ( galation 1:18-19)At the council of Jeruselum in Acts 15, it was St. Peters statement that settled the serious doctrinal dispute that was the reason for the council. As we saw earlier St. Peters statements silenced the assembly of presbyters and the apostles ( including James)We know from Church History that James was the bishop of Jeruselum and, As acts 21: 15-25 describes, he was concerned for Jewish Christians in Jeruselum who felt thier ancient customs threatened by the great number of Gentile converts. This background explains why St. James made the concluding remarks at the council and asked the Gentiles to respect certain Jewish practices. People are grasping at straws when they claim that act 15 proves that James, instead of Peter, was the head of the church.B]and for the fun of it facts about peterPeter often spoke for the the rest of the apostlesThe apostles are sometimes called peter and his companionsPeters name always heads the list of the apostlesPeters name is mentioned 191 times in the gospel, more than all of the other names of the apostles combined.Peter is consistently involved with church firsts after JesusPeter led the meeting which elected the first succesor of an apostlePeter preached the first sermon at the pentecostand recieved the first convertspeter performed the first miracle after pentecostinflicted the first punishemnt upon Ananias and Saphiraand excommunicated the first heretic simon the magician Peter is the first person to raise somebod from the deadPeter first recieved the revelation to allow gentiles in the churchand commanded that the first gentile converts be baptized.your brother in christRyan Fitz
 

Christina

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Now look what you have Letsgofishing:)Peter was the first to use the keys (the truths) that open the kingdom of heaven to people. Jesus tells all his followers to go into all the world and use the same keys, bringing the same salvation to people - through repentance, followed by baptism and receiving God's Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues.{Quote}I have to again warn Tallman for reducing Gods word to tongues(unknown) when the manuscripts say speaking forgien Languges not babble.I have to say history does show that Peter went and Assumed leadership of the churchand I have to tell you that our Rock is Christ not Peterand that the first Pope did not exist until 606 and Peter was not called a Pope and had been dead 313 years before any kind of organized church existed.Around the year A.D. 45, Peter went to Rome and assumed control of the church. During the persecution of Christians by the emperor Nero, Peter was imprisoned and scourged. He gave his farewell blessing to all of his flock, and especially to Saint Paul, who was going to be beheaded the same day outside Rome. He was then led to the top of Vatican Mount to be executed by crucifixion. Deeming himself to be unworthy to die in the same position as our Lord, he asked to be crucified upside down. He received his eternal reward on June 29 in the year 67. Two hundred sixty six popes have succeeded Peter since. For the next 300 years, Rome would begin a serious persecution against the truth. Christians began to meet behind closed doors and gradual changes were made. Elders of the church were known as bishops, and by the close of the third century; each congregation of any size had a bishop as its head, with a group of elders under him. No work was to be done on SundayIn A.D. 606, Boniface III was given the title "universal bishop," the pope of Rome. The word "pope" means father. This marked the beginning of the Roman Catholic Church.
 

Peacebewithyou

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List of Popes from Peter to St. Boniface:St. Peter (32-67) St. Linus (67-76) St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88) St. Clement I (88-97) St. Evaristus (97-105) St. Alexander I (105-115) St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I St. Telesphorus (125-136) St. Hyginus (136-140) St. Pius I (140-155) St. Anicetus (155-166) St. Soter (166-175) St. Eleutherius (175-189) St. Victor I (189-199) St. Zephyrinus (199-217) St. Callistus I (217-22) St. Urban I (222-30) St. Pontain (230-35) St. Anterus (235-36) St. Fabian (236-50) St. Cornelius (251-53) St. Lucius I (253-54) St. Stephen I (254-257) St. Sixtus II (257-258) St. Dionysius (260-268) St. Felix I (269-274) St. Eutychian (275-283) St. Caius (283-296) -- also called Gaius St. Marcellinus (296-304) St. Marcellus I (308-309) St. Eusebius (309 or 310) St. Miltiades (311-14) St. Sylvester I (314-35) St. Marcus (336) St. Julius I (337-52) Liberius (352-66) St. Damasus I (366-83) St. Siricius (384-99) St. Anastasius I (399-401) St. Innocent I (401-17) St. Zosimus (417-18) St. Boniface I (418-22) St. Celestine I (422-32) St. Sixtus III (432-40) St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61) St. Hilarius (461-68) St. Simplicius (468-83) St. Felix III (II) (483-92) St. Gelasius I (492-96) Anastasius II (496-98) St. Symmachus (498-514) St. Hormisdas (514-23) St. John I (523-26) St. Felix IV (III) (526-30) Boniface II (530-32)John II (533-35) St. Agapetus I (535-36) -- also called Agapitus I St. Silverius (536-37) Vigilius (537-55) Pelagius I (556-61) John III (561-74) Benedict I (575-79) Pelagius II (579-90) St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604) Sabinian (604-606) Boniface III (607) St. Boniface IV (608-15)
 

Peacebewithyou

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The idea that Jesus is setting up a second earthly head to his spiritual church is utter nonsense to anyone who believes all the other scriptures on the subject. People that have the Spirit of God to lead them don't need an earthly head, they have the mind of Christ!It is only people that don't have or don't appreciate these basic truths that will follow a man!
The irony in this statement!!!!! Who is right Tallman - you or Kriss? You are both Chrisitans, both have the Holy Spirit as your guide.. is the Holy Spirit confused? Because obviously YOU'VE been told with your "mind of Christ" tongues is a good thing, while Kriss has been shown with "her mind of Christ" that tongues (as you practice it) is nothing but babble. Is this REALLY how you believe Jesus left us? To fight it out among ourselves... each side thinking the other side just doesn't get it... or refuses to "see?" Which makes my point. Without an Authority on Earth, we are left with a hodge podge of opinions.. everyone claiming that their personal interpretation is truth. Talk about nonsense.
 

Christina

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(Peacebewithyou;28631)
The irony in this statement!!!!! Who is right Tallman - you or Kriss? You are both Chrisitans, both have the Holy Spirit as your guide.. is the Holy Spirit confused? Because obviously YOU'VE been told with your "mind of Christ" tongues is a good thing, while Kriss has been shown with "her mind of Christ" that tongues (as you practice it) is nothing but babble. Is this REALLY how you believe Jesus left us? To fight it out among ourselves... each side thinking the other side just doesn't get it... or refuses to "see?" Which makes my point. Without an Authority on Earth, we are left with a hodge podge of opinions.. everyone claiming that their personal interpretation is truth. Talk about nonsense.
In fact thats the sad part Tallman suffers from the same thing as you and many they follow men instead of GodWe have an authority on earth its the word of God the fact that Tallman wants to follow a modern day teaching of men is not Gods fault. If God had wanted an authority other than his Word on earth he would have left Christ here. He never appointed any man to be his authority for him. and espically not one that breaks his Word
 

Peacebewithyou

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We have an authority on earth its the word of God the fact that Tallman wants to follow a modern day teaching of men is not Gods fault. If God had wanted an authority other than his Word on earth he would have left Christ here. He never appointed any man to be his authority for him. and espically not one that breaks his Word
But Kriss, Tallman has verses he quotes to support his views.Just like another poster has verses he quotes to support his views that we are still bound by the law and can't wear cotton/poly blends. THAT is the point. This entire forum is a perfect example of why the Bible alone without an authority doesn't work ... there are just too many opinions - all based on scripture - and EVERYONE thinks they are right.We even have unorthodox Christian & others who don't even agree that God is three in One - something as basic as that.So Tallman's post where he says those with the "Spirit of God" to lead them don't need to follow a man - how comical is that? Because YOU'VE just said he is actually "following men."Honestly, THIS forum proves to me, without a shadow of doubt that God knew what He was doing when He established a Church, rather than handed out Bibles.
 

Christina

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(Peacebewithyou;28629)
List of Popes from Peter to St. Boniface:St. Peter (32-67) St. Linus (67-76) St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88) St. Clement I (88-97) St. Evaristus (97-105) St. Alexander I (105-115) St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I St. Telesphorus (125-136) St. Hyginus (136-140) St. Pius I (140-155) St. Anicetus (155-166) St. Soter (166-175) St. Eleutherius (175-189) St. Victor I (189-199) St. Zephyrinus (199-217) St. Callistus I (217-22) St. Urban I (222-30) St. Pontain (230-35) St. Anterus (235-36) St. Fabian (236-50) St. Cornelius (251-53) St. Lucius I (253-54) St. Stephen I (254-257) St. Sixtus II (257-258) St. Dionysius (260-268) St. Felix I (269-274) St. Eutychian (275-283) St. Caius (283-296) -- also called Gaius St. Marcellinus (296-304) St. Marcellus I (308-309) St. Eusebius (309 or 310) St. Miltiades (311-14) St. Sylvester I (314-35) St. Marcus (336) St. Julius I (337-52) Liberius (352-66) St. Damasus I (366-83) St. Siricius (384-99) St. Anastasius I (399-401) St. Innocent I (401-17) St. Zosimus (417-18) St. Boniface I (418-22) St. Celestine I (422-32) St. Sixtus III (432-40) St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61) St. Hilarius (461-68) St. Simplicius (468-83) St. Felix III (II) (483-92) St. Gelasius I (492-96) Anastasius II (496-98) St. Symmachus (498-514) St. Hormisdas (514-23) St. John I (523-26) St. Felix IV (III) (526-30) Boniface II (530-32)John II (533-35) St. Agapetus I (535-36) -- also called Agapitus I St. Silverius (536-37) Vigilius (537-55) Pelagius I (556-61) John III (561-74) Benedict I (575-79) Pelagius II (579-90) St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604) Sabinian (604-606) Boniface III (607) St. Boniface IV (608-15)
This can not be proven with any degree of certainy its just the we have little else but these 6th centry accounts..................... About St. Peter a great deal is known; about his successors, considerably less. For the early popes the main written source is the "Liber Pontificalis." This account of the lives of the popes was begun probably early in the sixth century while the Ostrogoths ruled Italy. The author had access to earlier written sources, but he was not rigidly critical. Since there are a number of mistakes which historians have checked, the "Liber Pontificalis," though valuable, is scarcely to be considered infallible. It is, however, the best written source extant for many of the early popes.