The Interpretation of the Rich Man and Lazarus Parable

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cga

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Just as this preceding parable,

And he said also to his disciples, A certain man was rich, who had a manager; and this one was accused by him as wasting his possessions. (Luke 16:1 [ABP])

And this other preceding parable,

And he said, A certain man had two sons. (Luke 15:11 [ABP])

The passage of the rich man and Lazarus begins in the same style of the parables that immediately precede it,

"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. (Luke 16:19 [NIV])

The rich man specifically symbolizes the Jews, who disbelieve and enrich themselves, and just as the Jews have Abraham as a father, so did the rich man also have Abraham as a father,

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' (Luke 16:24 [NIV])

The purple the rich man wore symbolizes royalty,

And was the weight of the ear-rings of gold which he asked for — a thousand and seven hundred shekels of gold, besides the ornaments of the crescents, and the wrap around garments of the ones of purple, of the ones upon the kings of Midian, even besides the collars of the ones on the necks of their camels. (Judges 8:26 [ABP])

The linen the rich man wore symbolizes priesthood,

and the Levites, the psalm singers, all with the sons of Asaph, of Heman, to Jeduthun, and to their sons, and to their brethren of the ones putting on apparels of fine linen, with cymbals, and with stringed instruments, and with lutes, were standing over against the altar, and with them a hundred and twenty priests trumpeting with the trumpets. (2 Chronicles 5:12 [ABP])

As such, just as the rich man wore purple and linen, so were the Jews composed primarily of the tribe of Judah, who were royals, and of the tribe of Levi, who were priests, and an example can be seen of a young man belonging to both tribes, as many of the Jews were also intermixed among different tribes, inclusive of being of the tribes of Judah and Levi,

And there was a young man from out of Beth-lehem Judah from the kin of Judah, and he was a Levite, and he sojourned there.(Judges 17:7 [ABP])

And just as the rich man who wore purple and linen was wealthy, so were the Jews who were primarily of the tribes of Judah and Levi also wealthy, as these were the Pharisees and Sadducees that Jesus Christ spoke against,

The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. (Luke 16:14 [NIV])
Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; for you tithe the mint, and the dill, and the cummin, and leave the heavier matters of the law -- the judgment, and the mercy, and the belief -- these necessary to do, and these are not allowed. (Matthew 23:23 [ABP])
Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; for you are like tombs being whitewashed, ones which outside indeed appear beautiful, but inside are full of bones of the dead and of all uncleanness. (Matthew 23:27 [ABP])
"Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matthew 16:6 [NIV])

And just as the the rich man had five brothers,

for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' (Luke 16:28 [NIV])

So did the tribe of Judah, or the tribe of Levi, also have five siblings, as both tribes were born to Leah who had six sons, with each brother having five siblings,

The sons of Leah, the first-born of Jacob, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun. (Genesis 35:23 [ABP])

And just as the brothers of the rich man had Moses and the Prophets,

"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' (Luke 16:29 [NIV])

So did the other Jews who were also composed of these other sibling tribes also have Moses and the Prophets,

Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God. (Romans 3:2 [NIV])
For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. (Romans 9:3-4 [NIV])

As such, although the rich man was a son of Abraham as the Jews were also sons of Abraham,

Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. (Romans 9:3-4 [NIV])

They will not sit with Abraham in the kingdom of the heavens, but instead will be cast out into the place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,

I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12 [BSB])

Just as the rich man does not sit at the bosom of Abraham, but instead is tormented in a flame,

And in Hades having lifted up his eyes being in torment, he sees Abraham from far off, and Lazarus in his enfolded arms. (Luke 16:23 [ABP])

Because they did not believe,

He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”(Luke 16:31 [ESV])

Even though one had been risen from the dead, who was Jesus Christ, and still the Jews refused to believe,

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. (Romans 8:11 [NIV])
But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. (Acts 14:2 [NIV])

And because they chose to enrich themselves instead of humbling themselves by becoming poor, as a result of believing,

For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. (Matthew 23:12 [NIV])

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last." (Matthew 20:16 [NIV])
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:23-24 [NIV])

In which case, the rich man not only symbolizes the Jews who disbelieve and enrich themselves, but all who disbelieve and enrich themselves as opposed to merely believing and humbling themselves by becoming poor,

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; (1 Corinthians 1:26-27 [ESV])
Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, go away and sell your possessions, and give to poor ones! and you shall have treasure in heaven. And come, follow me! (Matthew 19:21 [ABP])

And although Hades and the lake of fire are two distinct places, to where even Hades itself is destroyed in the lake of fire,

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (Revelation 20:14 [NIV])

The interpretation of why the rich man was in a flame, while also being in Hades, is because the judgment of the lake of fire also pertains to those whom have died and gone to Hades, in which case the Jews who are sons of the kingdom, and also all others who are symbolized by the rich man, that die and go to Hades, will then be resurrected in the second resurrection, where they will then be thrown into the lake of fire,

The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. (Revelation 20:13 [NIV])
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15 [NIV])

Whereas those who will sit with Abraham in the kingdom of the heavens will be the Gentiles,

I say to you that many will come from the east and the westto share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 8:11 [BSB])
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!" (Acts 28:28 [NIV])

Which is who Lazarus specifically symbolizes, the Gentiles, and is the Greek name for Eliezer, who was a servant in the household of Abram, that was not to be an heir of Abram,

And Abram says, Master, O LORD, what will you give to me, for I am wasting away childless, but the son of Masek of my native-born maid servant, this Damascus Eliezer is heir? (Genesis 15:2 [ABP])
Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir." (Genesis 15:4 [NIV])

Yet the Gentiles who were not heirs,

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)-- remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. (Ephesians 2:11-12 [NIV])

Have become the heirs of Abraham by belief and the blood of Jesus Christ,

But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Ephesians 2:13 [NIV])
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” (Galatians 3:7-8 [NIV])

And just as Isaac came forth by promise, the Gentiles, who walk by belief, have become the sons of promise through the promise that the Gentiles will be blessed through Abraham, in which case the Gentiles that believe are also symbolized by Isaac, who was born out promise from Sarah, who was the free woman,

Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. (Galatians 4:28 [NIV])
But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.
(Galatians 4:23 [ESV])

Whereas the Jews who did not believe, who is symbolized by the rich man, are also symbolized by Ishmael, who was born of Hagar, who was the slave woman,

These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. (Galatians 4:24-25 [NIV])

And just as the Jews who disbelieve and enrich themselves will be cast out, so were Ishmael and the slave woman cast out,

But what does Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. (Galatians 4:30-31 [NIV])

And just as Lazarus was poor and suffered in his life,

At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. (Luke 16:20-21 [NIV])

So are the Gentiles, who walk by belief, also poor and receive sufferings,

Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. (Romans 8:17 [NIV])
And the possessions and the things of substance they sold, and they divided them to all in so far as anyone had need. (Acts 2:45 [ABP])
For neither anyone lacking existed among them; for as many as were owners of places or houses existing to them, by selling they brought the value of the things being sold, (Acts 4:34 [ABP])
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:3 [NIV])
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5 [NIV])
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
(Matthew 5:11-12 [NIV])
Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, (2 Timothy 3:12 [ESV])
For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, (Philippians 1:29 [ESV])
As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” (Romans 8:36 [ESV])
strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. “We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God,” they said. (Acts 14:22 [NIV])

As opposed to those who the rich man symbolizes, which is those who disbelieve and exalt themselves with wealth and received good things in this life,

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. (Luke 16:25 [NIV])

As such, the meaning of the name of Lazarus is "God is my help", and so the Gentiles, who are symbolized by Lazarus, rely on God for help in sufferings. Lazarus not only symbolizes the Gentiles, but also the Jews that did believe and humble themselves by becoming poor and received sufferings in the same manner as the Gentiles, since the Gentiles that do believe are part of the same olive tree of the Jews that also believe,

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you being a wild olive tree were engrafted in them, and became fellow-partakers of the root and the fatness of the olive tree, (Romans 11:17 [ABP])

And in which case, all who believe and humbled themselves, whether Jew or Gentile, will one day be called Israel,

Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; (Romans 11:25 [NIV])
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28 [NIV])

And just as Lazarus died, and was then taken by angels to go sit on the bosom of Abraham,

"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. (Luke 16:22 [NIV])

So will all who believed and humbled themselves, which are all offspring of Abraham by belief, whether Jew or Gentile,

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” (Galatians 3:7 [ESV])

Will also be resurrected and then gathered by angels to be brought where Jesus Christ will be at his second coming, which is where Abraham will also be, as he also will partake in the first resurrection,

"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. (Luke 13:28-29 [NIV])
Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. (John 5:25 [NIV])
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:31 [NIV])
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 [NIV])
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. (Romans 4:13 [NIV])

And just as the rich man spoke to Abraham, who was an heir of the world, after he died,

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' (Luke 16:24 [NIV])

So will those symbolized by the rich man also speak out to those who are also heirs of the world, as the elect who have inherited the earth are also appointed to judge the world, and will sit and also judge them,

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5 [NIV])
Or do you not know that the Lord's people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? (1 Corinthians 6:2 [NIV])
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28 [NIV])
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4 [NIV])

And just as the rich man did not receive any mercy from Abraham nor Lazarus, not even a drop of water,

So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' (Luke 16:24 [NIV])

So will the Jews who disbelieve, along with all others who the rich man symbolizes, will not receive mercy at their final judgment, but will be thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed,

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15 [NIV])

And just as a chasm is set between the rich man and Lazarus so that neither can cross over to either side,

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' (Luke 16:26 [NIV])

So is the judgment of those that are thrown into the lake of fire, which is a permanent destruction of body and soul, and subsequently never be able to cross over into where Abraham will be, which is also where Jesus Christ will be, as this judgment is final,

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 [NIV])
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24 [NIV])
"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:1-3 [NIV])
 

StanJ

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Luke 16 does not contain any parables unless of course you believe that the section heading as part of the original manuscripts, which it isn't.
these are situations that Jesus took out of real life and you may be interested to know that the latter is referred to in v20 is the same Lazarus in John 11.
I agree with Angelina, this is not a discussion, this is a sermon, and as such really doesn't belong here. You do have the ability to create a blog if you so wish.
 

Born_Again

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I am moving this to the Bible Study forum.
 

cga

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Angelina said:
Did you cut and paste this from your own website cga? Please keep your thread short so that people will actually read it.
I keep my studies at around 10,000 - 15,000 characters, which I consider short, especially for elaborate topics such as these.
 

Angelina

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cga this is a discussion forum. If you are only interested in placing your articles into our forum my suggestion is that you use the Blog feature as StanJ has suggested. Thank you.
 

cga

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Angelina said:
cga this is a discussion forum. If you are only interested in placing your articles into our forum my suggestion is that you use the Blog feature as StanJ has suggested. Thank you.
Am I not here discussing these studies with you and reasoning with you guys? Or is the real reason you want these studies moved to another area is so that no one will actually see them? StanJ has opposed me in other forums, so it should come as no surprise that he would make a suggestion to try to suppress any of my studies that contradict his views. I post in the format that I do because I love sharing actual truth along with plentiful scriptures, as opposed to endless debates in the forums that yield no knowledge.
 

Phoneman777

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StanJ said:
Luke 16 does not contain any parables unless of course you believe that the section heading as part of the original manuscripts, which it isn't.
these are situations that Jesus took out of real life and you may be interested to know that the latter is referred to in v20 is the same Lazarus in John 11.
I agree with Angelina, this is not a discussion, this is a sermon, and as such really doesn't belong here. You do have the ability to create a blog if you so wish.
Content is what determines if a passage is parabolic or not. Therefore, to claim there is nothing parabolic in Luke 16 is to claim that the dead possess knowledge and emotions, can develop strategy, already possess bodies BEFORE they are given them when Jesus returns, are able to talk to each other, can carry on thoughtful conversations while completely engulfed in flame, etc., all of which other Scriptures (I have them for the asking) and our own reality deny is possible.
 

Heb 13:8

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Phoneman777 said:
Content is what determines if a passage is parabolic or not. Therefore, to claim there is nothing parabolic in Luke 16 is to claim that the dead possess knowledge and emotions, can develop strategy, already possess bodies BEFORE they are given them when Jesus returns, are able to talk to each other, can carry on thoughtful conversations while completely engulfed in flame, etc., all of which other Scriptures (I have them for the asking) and our own reality deny is possible.
Not to mention that chapter titles didn't even exist until man put them in. Or didn't put them in. Chapter title bias.
 

StanJ

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Phoneman777 said:
Content is what determines if a passage is parabolic or not. Therefore, to claim there is nothing parabolic in Luke 16 is to claim that the dead possess knowledge and emotions, can develop strategy, already possess bodies BEFORE they are given them when Jesus returns, are able to talk to each other, can carry on thoughtful conversations while completely engulfed in flame, etc., all of which other Scriptures (I have them for the asking) and our own reality deny is possible.
Well if that's your understanding of Luke 16 then you obviously have no idea what a parable is.
 

Phoneman777

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StanJ said:
Well if that's your understanding of Luke 16 then you obviously have no idea what a parable is.
I gave a summary of the plain reading of the text. If it's a literal account of two dead men, then it overthrows much of what the Bible plainly says elsewhere about death and eschatology. If it's a symbolic parable, then we must recognize that Jesus used symbolism which must be interpreted.
 

mjrhealth

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Why is it impossible for teh dead to speak?

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Here is John declaring one who was risen from the dead, one of us a fellow servant...
 

Phoneman777

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mjrhealth said:
Why is it impossible for teh dead to speak?

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Here is John declaring one who was risen from the dead, one of us a fellow servant...
Because the dead "know not anything" (Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV). Wouldn't you agree that you must first know something before you can verbalize it?
 

Heb 13:8

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mjrhealth said:
Why is it impossible for teh dead to speak?

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Here is John declaring one who was risen from the dead, one of us a fellow servant...
I think considered a vision on Patmos, like the fifth seal..

Rev 19:9 Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

Hab 2:2 And the LORD answered me: “Write the vision; make it plain on tablets, so he may run who reads it.
 

mjrhealth

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Because the dead "know not anything" (Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV). Wouldn't you agree that you must first know something before you can verbalize it?
Actuallt that is not true, for there are many who have died and come back and can recall what they did after they died, and that is how my friend Pia came to Christ, she asked for death died, an in teh darness she called out to Jesus (still doesnt know how she knew to do it) and He came and brough her back, and if teh dead know nothing than how can the saints be calling out to God for vengance.
 

Webers_Home

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I think if we let Luke 16:19-31 speak for itself there will be no need for an
"interpretation".

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies
that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable
theory has a fatal flaw.

Abraham, Moses, and the prophets are real-life persons; they are neither
fiction nor fantasy.

Abraham is especially notable because he's held in very high esteem by at
least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and
Islam.

Abraham is also the friend of God (2Chrn 20:27, Isa 41:8). I simply cannot
believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among Christians for his honesty
and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man;
especially one of his Father's buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the
story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said
things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the
commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

There is something else to consider. Luke 16:19:31 didn't originate with
Jesus Christ. No, it originated higher up. In other words: Jesus Christ was
micro managed.

John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as
the Father taught me.

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

When people allege that Luke 16:19-31 is not true to life; they insinuate
that God is a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the
truth about people, not even about His own friends, which is ridiculous
seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that God cannot lie.

His impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more
terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of sensible doubt,
that Christ's Father is a tale spinner; I pretty much have to assume the story
was drawn from real-life; and if not drawn from real life, then at least based
upon real life; for example farmers sowing seed, women losing coins, sons
leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, women leavening
dough, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al. Those parables are
all based upon real life. One lone exception based upon fiction and/or fantasy
would be inconsistent.

/
 

Phoneman777

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mjrhealth said:
Actuallt that is not true, for there are many who have died and come back and can recall what they did after they died, and that is how my friend Pia came to Christ, she asked for death died, an in teh darness she called out to Jesus (still doesnt know how she knew to do it) and He came and brough her back, and if teh dead know nothing than how can the saints be calling out to God for vengance.
What we know for sure is that the "dead know not anything", the dead "don't praise the Lord", of the dead "their memory is forgotten", and "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, wither thou goest."

Therefore, if someone tells you that they died and things happened to them while they were dead, you may know immediately that they did not die at all and most likely suffered induced hallucination due to low brain O2 on the operating table or were victimized by Satanic deception.

Out of the 12 miracle resurrections in Scripture, there was not one single instance where the revived person had anything to say about what was going on --- because "the dead know not anything". But, keep on believing what others tell you rather than God's Word, bro. Satan's not interested in soft targets, right?
 

Phoneman777

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Webers_Home said:
-
I think if we let Luke 16:19-31 speak for itself there will be no need for an
"interpretation".

Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies
that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable
theory has a fatal flaw.

Abraham, Moses, and the prophets are real-life persons; they are neither
fiction nor fantasy.

Abraham is especially notable because he's held in very high esteem by at
least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and
Islam.

Abraham is also the friend of God (2Chrn 20:27, Isa 41:8). I simply cannot
believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among Christians for his honesty
and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man;
especially one of his Father's buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the
story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said
things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the
commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

There is something else to consider. Luke 16:19:31 didn't originate with
Jesus Christ. No, it originated higher up. In other words: Jesus Christ was
micro managed.

John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words

John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as
the Father taught me.

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

When people allege that Luke 16:19-31 is not true to life; they insinuate
that God is a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the
truth about people, not even about His own friends, which is ridiculous
seeing as how Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18 testify that God cannot lie.

His impeccable character is what makes that narrative all the more
terrifying. Unless somebody can prove, beyond a shadow of sensible doubt,
that Christ's Father is a tale spinner; I pretty much have to assume the story
was drawn from real-life; and if not drawn from real life, then at least based
upon real life; for example farmers sowing seed, women losing coins, sons
leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, women leavening
dough, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al. Those parables are
all based upon real life. One lone exception based upon fiction and/or fantasy
would be inconsistent.

/
Friend, I've heard this argument often and my response is always the same: What is your Scriptural evidence to support this claim that a parable must never have included in it actual Biblical characters? I can tell you that none exists and that you are left with only subjective reasoning, which is a poor substitute for exegesis, friend. What we do know for certain is that:
  • there is no textual prohibition for including such characters
  • that these characters themselves are actually symbols themselves (ie. "Moses and the prophets" = "the Word of God")
  • that Luke 16 is filled with elements that defy real experience
  • that Luke 16 is filled with elements that directly contradict plainly taught doctrine by other Bible writers including Jesus Christ Himself
Would you prefer to turn a blind eye to all these elements which can only be explained as being symbolism requiring interpretation and hold fast to this popular yet wholly Biblically unsubstantiated claim about Bible figures not being allowed in parables?
 

Webers_Home

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Solomon vs Jesus Christ

Back in 2008, a financial crisis called the "housing bubble" collapsed and
quite a few people lost their homes, and a whole lot more lost their jobs and
their retirement packages.

There's a sneaky bubble in the Bible that I've labeled the "Ecclesiastes
bubble". Large numbers of people are relying upon comments in Ecclesiastes
as proof that human life does not exist beyond the grave. It's a bubble
because they are unaware that Ecclesiastes isn't a doctrinal book. No, far
from it. Ecclesiastes is an inspired sample of worldly philosophy.

Though a holy man wrote Ecclesiastes, and was no doubt divinely motivated
to do so; he didn't record his observations from the perspective of an
enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the scope of empirical
evidence and human experience; rather, he recorded his observations from
the perspective of a man under the sun; viz: an intellectual thinking for
himself whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see going
on around him in the physical universe rather than what he cannot see going
on around him in the non-physical.

Ecclesiastes is popular with agnostics and atheists because it agrees, to a
very large extent, with their own secular philosophies; viz: Solomon's
observations are primarily an evaluation of life on earth as seen from the
earth rather than an evaluation of life on earth as seen from heaven. In
other words: he spoke of life from the perspective of empirical evidence and
human experience.

Empirical evidence can be defined as: knowledge gained from observation;
which is why you'll often read Ecclesiastes saying: "I have seen". Well;
intellectuals can't see beyond death; so to them, death ends human
existence because in the absence of empirical evidence for life beyond the
grave, there is no logical basis for believing it's there— simple as that.

Solomon was a very wise man, and the brightest intellectual of his day. But
Christ claimed that his wisdom is superior to Solomon's.

Luke 11:31 . .The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment
with the men of this generation and will condemn them; because she came
from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, look!
Something more than Solomon is here.

Solomon's understanding was limited, but Christ's is exceedingly vast.

Col 2:3 . . In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Traditional Christianity casts its vote for Christ primarily because it believes
that no man could possibly know more about the afterlife than he; and also
because it is God's edict that people listen to His son.

Matt 17:5 . . While Peter was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud
overshadowed them; and behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is My
beloved son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to him.

No doubt Solomon was inspired to put his world view in writing; but Christ
was more than inspired to say the things he spoke. The things he spoke
came directly from God; so when he speaks of the afterlife, it pays to listen.

John 3:34-35 . . For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words; for God's
Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those
things which I have heard of Him.

John 8:28 . . I speak these things as the Father taught me.

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

In other words; people who take sides with Solomon's world view against
Jesus Christ's heaven-sent message, have taken sides against God; and the
repercussions of their choice are disastrous to say the least.

John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in His son is not condemned, but whoever
disbelieves stands condemned already

John 3:36 . . He that disbelieves the Son shall not see life; but the wrath
of God abides on him.

Q: What purpose did God have in mind for Solomon's worldly views? In what
way is his personal philosophy of life useful for reproving, for setting things
straight, and for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be
fully competent, completely equipped for every good work? (2Tim 3:16-17)

A: Ecclesiastes is very valuable for discussing life sans the divine
perspective; which Solomon concluded is both futile and meaningless.
Humankind needs to believe in something more than itself just to make
sense of why the cosmos-- with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy
--exists at all. Science keeps itself busy sleuthing "how" the cosmos came to
be; but pretty much leaves the "why" to religion and philosophy.

People who disbelieve in the possibility of a hereafter tend to be darkened by
a somewhat pessimistic opinion of life; for example:

Nobel Prize winner, author of several best-selling books, and recipient of at
least a dozen honorary degrees; physicist Steven Weinberg (who views
religion as an enemy of science), in his book "The First Three Minutes"
wrote: The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it seems
pointless. But if there is no solace in the fruits of our research, there is at
least some consolation in the research itself . . . the effort to understand the
universe is one of the very few things that lifts human life a little above the
level of a farce and gives it some of the grace of tragedy.

Well of course Mr. Weinberg feels that way. How else could a thinking man
feel when he believes in nothing beyond the natural world?

/