The Interpretation of the Rich Man and Lazarus Parable

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Webers_Home

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Phoneman777 said:
What is your Scriptural evidence to support this claim that a parable must
never have included in it actual Biblical characters?
Titus 1:2 . . God cannot lie

Heb 6:18 . . It is impossible for God to lie

Were God to appropriate a true-life story about Abraham for a parable, that
would be acceptable. But it's totally unthinkable that God would spin fiction
about Abraham for a parable because that would be grossly out of character
for a holy being widely-known for His honesty, integrity, and reliability. Were
God the liar that you have made Him out to be, then nobody's reputation
would be safe in His hands. Shame on you!

/
 

Phoneman777

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Webers_Home said:
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Titus 1:2 . . God cannot lie

Heb 6:18 . . It is impossible for God to lie

Were God to appropriate a true-life story about Abraham for a parable, that
would be acceptable. But it's totally unthinkable that God would spin fiction
about Abraham for a parable because that would be grossly out of character
for a holy being widely-known for His honesty, integrity, and reliability. Were
God the liar that you have made Him out to be, then nobody's reputation
would be safe in His hands. Shame on you!

/
What a ridiculously subjective argument and a textbook example of circular reasoning.
You first claim that a depiction of Abraham in a parable would make God a liar and then back up your entire argument with "God cannot lie"?

Perhaps you are unaware that God depicted one of His faithful servants mentioned in the Bible, who was actually granted the privilege of writing a chapter of sacred Scripture (a privilege not even granted to Abraham), as a mighty tree that was cut down and left as a stump with a chain around him - an obvious parable in which God "spun fiction" as you say, into the mix. Does that make God a "liar" for depicting King Nebuchadnezzer this way? Are you starting to see how this example of Daniel 4 utterly destroys the claim once and for all that "God never uses real life Bible characters in parables"?
 

Webers_Home

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Phoneman777 said:
God depicted one of His faithful servants mentioned in the Bible, who was
actually granted the privilege of writing a chapter of sacred Scripture (a
privilege not even granted to Abraham),
as a mighty tree that was cut
down and left as a stump with a chain around him - an obvious parable in
which God "spun fiction" as you say, into the mix.
Nebuchadnezzar's story in the book of Daniel was a real-life event in the life
of a real life historical person. Were God to appropriate a real-life event in
Abraham's life for a parable, that would be acceptable. But it's totally
unthinkable that God would make up an event about Abraham for a parable
because that would be out of character for a holy being widely-known for His
honesty, integrity, and reliability.

Metaphors such as the stump are also acceptable. But Abraham is quoted in
Luke 16:19-31. If Abraham never actually spoke the words attributed to
him, then God would be a false witness; which again, would be out of
character for a holy being widely-known for His honesty, integrity, and
reliability.

In the same vein: Nebuchadnezzar is quoted in the book of Daniel. If he
never actually spoke the words attributed to him, then the prophet Daniel
would be a false witness; thus throwing his entire book into question as a
source of divine inspiration.

BTW
: You would be wise to give God the benefit of the doubt by ceasing to
insinuate that He's a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell
the truth about people, even about His own friends.

/
 

Phoneman777

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Webers_Home said:
But it's totally unthinkable that God would make up an event about Abraham for a parable because that would be out of character for a holy being widely-known for His honesty, integrity, and reliability.
Let's examine what's "unthinkable" and "out of character" for God, alright? You do not realize that by claiming that God's depiction of Abraham in Luke 16 is literal and therefore proof that the passage is a literal account of two dead men, then you by default are claiming that:
  • the Rich Man recognized who Lazarus and Abraham were, although the Bible says the dead have no memory...(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)
  • although the Rich Man was completely engulfed in flames, he was capable of carrying on a thoughtful conversation - an idea which is wholly unreasonable...(Isaiah 1:18 KJV)
  • the two dead men were immediate recipients of bodies containing eyes, ears, tongues, and fingers, although the rest of Scripture (and the vast majority of professing Christians) declares that the dead do not receive bodies until the resurrection...(1 Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV; Romans 2:5-8 KJV)
  • all the righteous dead literally travel to and reside in "Abraham's chest" which must be enormous in size to accommodate the millions of righteous dead saints - an idea which is wholly unreasonable... (Isaiah 1:18 KJV)
  • the dead talk to one another, although the Bible declares that both the righteous and wicked dead are in a state of silence...(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)
Yes, you insist that it is "unthinkable" and "out of character" for God to ever depict Abraham as a symbol in a parable, but you are perfectly willing to allow God to contradict Himself by what He says here in comparison to what He has said elsewhere in Scripture. I guess "God cannot lie" doesn't apply here, right? I really think you need to reconsider your line of reasoning, friend.
 

Webers_Home

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Luke 16:27-29 . . Then he said: I beg you therefore, father [Abraham]
that you would send [Lazarus] to my father's house, for I have five brothers,
that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.

That poor man had no way to contact his surviving kin and let them know
his whereabouts; but his biggest fear was that he knew them all well enough
to know that all five were coming down where he was-- there was nothing
he could do to prevent it. It was like the survivors of the Titanic watching
their loved ones go to Davy Jones and helpless to do anything about it. (I'm
speaking in the past tense because that man's kin have all joined him by
now.)

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess
it sure is pertinent.

A thirsty farmer went out to his barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to
sneak a pull from a hidden liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he
heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy
coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever
managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was
easy; I walked in your footsteps.

Can you just imagine the anguish that parents feel in the netherworld
knowing their children walked in their ideological footsteps-- literally showed
them the path to follow mom and dad right down to hell? How do people
bear the torment of something like that on their conscience?

For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the afterlife
is a sad reunion in fire and despair.

/
 

Phoneman777

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Webers_Home said:
That poor man had no way to contact his surviving kin and let them know
his whereabouts; but his biggest fear was that he knew them all well enough
to know that all five were coming down where he was-- there was nothing
he could do to prevent it.
At least we agree that Luke 16 is God's attempt to warn His people of an impending fate. However, the nature of that fate is what is here in question. It seems that you are willing to allow God to depict Nebuchadnezzer in a fictitious way in Daniel 4 because this depiction eventually resulted in the king's fate that was totally in harmony with the symbolism of that depiction just one year after it was given. The parable of Luke 16 is no different.

There is a very good reason why God depicted Abraham in a fictitious way: So that it would be clear to everyone just who the "Rich Man" was representative of - the Jews. In the parable, the Rich Man calls Abraham "father" and Abraham calls the Rich Man "son" - absolute proof that Jesus' parable was directed to the people to whom Abraham was called "the father of the faithful".

"And when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them." Matthew 21:45 KJV

The events that came upon the nation of Israel right after they crucified Jesus prove that this parable is every bit of legit as Daniel 4 which also came to pass soon after. The Israelites were once favored and blessed as this Rich Man, while the Gentiles were outsiders with the dogs, but after they rejected Jesus, we Gentiles are now comforted by the Comforter while "wrath has come upon (Israel) to the uttermost" and one atrocity after another has marked the existence of the Jewish nation.

I see you've not addressed my bullet points in post #24 which demonstrate the contradictions of Scripture about death that are introduced by making this parable a literal account of two dead men. Of course, these points cannot be gainsaid. If we allow Luke 16 to be the parable that it is, there are no contradictions. If we insist that it is literal, then God is made to speak out of both sides of His mouth, friend.
 

junobet

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To me it’s the Biblical story that springs to mind whenever I’m tempted to not care about the plight of the poor, ill and destitute of this world.
 
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Webers_Home

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Phoneman777 said:
the Rich Man recognized who Lazarus and Abraham were, although the Bible
says the dead have no memory...(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)
As was already stated once before in post #20. the book of Ecclesiastes is
philosophical; viz: it's the world's view rather than heaven's view.

As was already stated once before in post #20, Jesus Christ's wisdom
trumps Solomon's. Though Solomon knew a lot, his knowledge was limited.
In contrast, Christ's knowledge is unlimited.

Col 2:3 . . In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Ergo: whenever there's a conflict between Solomon and Christ, Christ has
the preeminence.

As was already stated once before in post #20, it is God's wishes that people
listen to His son.

Ergo: people listening to Solomon instead of listening to Christ are failing to
comply with God's wishes.

Along with that; it is stated in Heb 1:1-2 that Jesus Christ is God's final word
to mankind.

And along with that, John the Baptist testified in John 3:31-36, that people
who refuse to listen to God's son are already condemned-- no delay and no
waiting period.

Jesus stated at John 14:6 that he is the truth. Well; if his statement is
reliable-- I sincerely believe it is --then I have to believe that he would never
quote Abraham saying things that he did not say, nor would he stoop to
spinning yarns and/or telling fables about a real-life historical person,
especially about one of his Father's buddies.


Ecc 9:5-6 . . The living know they will die. But the dead know nothing;
they have no more recompense, for even the memory of them has died.
Their loves, their hates, their jealousies have long since perished; and they
have no more share till the end of time in all that goes on under the sun.

The "memory" spoken of in that passage has nothing to do with the dead's
cognition. It's speaking of their legacies. Except for a scant few, most people
will pass off the page of human history neither noticed nor appreciated..

The "dead" spoken of in that passage are not the persons themselves,
rather, it's their remains; viz: their corpse. You see, philosophers cannot see
beyond the grave so they conclude that death ends all existence. In other
words: in the philosopher's reasoning, human life is totally organic.



Phoneman777 said:
although the Rich Man was completely engulfed in flames, he was capable of
carrying on a thoughtful conversation- an idea which is wholly unreasonable.
The natural properties of fire are easily manipulated by the genius who
created them.

For example: fire totally incinerated the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah but
left unscathed a desert shrub that Moses encountered in the Sinai outback
while tending his father-in law's sheep. (Ex 3:1-3)

Compare Dan 3:8-27 where a blistering hot fire didn't even so much as
singe the clothing of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego while slaying the
guards that threw them in the furnace.

And Isa 66:23-24 speaks of a worm that thrives in fire.



Phoneman777 said:
the two dead men were immediate recipients of bodies containing eyes,
ears, tongues, and fingers, although the rest of Scripture (and the vast
majority of professing Christians) declares that the dead do not receive
bodies until the resurrection.(1 Corinthians 15:51-55 KJV; Romans 2:5-8
KJV)
According to 1Pet 3:18-20, dead people exist in the netherworld as spirit
beings rather than organic beings. But the thing to keep in mind is that
though people in the netherworld exist there as spirit beings, they are still,
nonetheless, recognizable as the human beings they were before they
passed on.

Incidentally, though the rich man's brain cells did not accompany him to the
netherworld, he somehow retained his memories. This no doubt was a bit of
a theological puzzle in the past but we today are very familiar with data
transfer from one medium to another.



Phoneman777 said:
all the righteous dead literally travel to and reside in "Abraham's chest"
which must be enormous in size to accommodate the millions of righteous
dead saints - an idea which is wholly unreasonable.
Seeing as how Abraham called the rich man "son" and seeing as how
Abraham comforted Lazarus; then I'm of the strong opinion that the rich
man and Lazarus are Jews. In other words: Lazarus is one of Abraham's
paternal grandsons. That being the case, then it's only natural that the angel
would bring Lazarus to Abraham for a hug.



Phoneman777 said:
the dead talk to one another, although the Bible declares that both the
righteous and wicked dead are in a state of silence.(Psalms 115:17 KJV;
Psalm 31:17 KJV)
Ps 115:17 . . The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into
silence.

The first half of that verse speaks of a category of folk called the dead. It
isn't necessary to be deceased in order to fall into that category. For
instance:

John 5:24 . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and
believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In that case, the "dead" are unbelievers on a road to hell; which means that none
of the dead mentioned in Rev 20:11-15 will be spared a second physical
death in the lake of brimstone.

The last half of that verse speaks of the dead's remains; in other words;
their corpse.

Ps 31:17 . . let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the
grave.

The Hebrew word for "grave" in that verse is sheol, which Jonah sited at the
roots of the mountains. Well, mountains are not rooted in the tummy of a
fish; no, they are rooted deep in the earth. In other words: sheol is the
netherworld.

The pronoun them in "let them be silent in the netherworld"; refers to the
dead's sudden realization that the Bible was right all along. In other words:
their arguments against the Bible will finally be squashed once and for all
because in hell, it's futile to argue about it.


What you have done is dastardly. You have followed the Devil's example by
opposing the Son of God with scripture. The Devil knew what he was doing;
but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you didn't.


/
 

mjrhealth

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Therefore, if someone tells you that they died and things happened to them while they were dead, you may know immediately that they did not die at all and most likely suffered induced hallucination due to low brain O2 on the operating table or were victimized by Satanic deception.
My firend died, went into the darkness and called out to Jesus in the darknes and He came and brought her back. And whe nshe asked why he never came before, he tolfd her because she had never called out with her whole heart beofre. Now if Jesus is s demoinc deception we have no hope.
 
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theophilus

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Why do you think the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable? It seems to me that he was describing something that actually happened. In the Old Testament all who die, whether they are good or bad, are said to go to a place called Sheol. In the New Testament this place is called Hades. When he told about the rich man and Lazarus Jesus was revealing new information about what Sheol was like.

Since the death and resurrection of Jesus those who are righteous go to a place called Paradise, which is in heaven. Jesus told the repentant criminal that they would be together in Paradise that same day. You can find out more about this subject here: https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/lazarus-and-the-rich-man-parable-or-actual-event/
 

Webers_Home

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Here's a passage often utilized by the anti-afterlife people to reinforce their
theory that Luke 16:19-31 is a fictional narrative.

Ps 146:4 . . His spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground; in that day his
thoughts do perish.

The Hebrew word for "thoughts" in that passage is 'eshtonah (esh-to naw')
which means: thinking.

Unfortunately, Ps 146:4 is the only place in the entire Old Testament where
'eshtonah appears so we can't compare its uses in other contexts.

According to Webster's the word "thinking" is ambiguous with quite a variety
of meanings to choose from; including, but not limited to: concerns,
anticipations, conceptions, opinions, imaginations, visualizations, ideas,
epiphanies, plans, schemes, fantasies, arguments, deliberations, and the
like.

So 'eshtonah not only implies your cognitive processes, but also what's on
your mind.

For example: consider all those people who perished in the World Trade
Center, and in the Japan and Indonesia tsunamis, and the Haiti earthquake.
None of them woke that day planning on it being their last on earth. No, on
the contrary; they had people to see, places to go, and things to do. But
before the day ended; whatever was on their minds lost its importance--
their priorities went right out the window and became no more significant
than green cheese on the moon.

All their plans, their dreams, their schedules, their appointments, their
schemes, their problems, their ambitions, their loves, and their aspirations
went right down the tubes as they were suddenly confronted with a whole
new reality to cope with.

So then, an alternative to the Watchtower Society's theology is that people
don't go out of existence when they die. Their cognitive processes don't stop
working; no, Ps 146:4 only means that whatever was on their minds while
they were alive is now null and void.

Take for another example Michael Jackson. While working on a new world
tour, Jackson died in his sleep. As a result; his tour wrapped on the spot.

When my eldest nephew was paroled from prison, he quit drinking, and
began going to college with the goal towards becoming a counselor. For 2½
years all went well. His parole officer was happy, and he was on track and
getting good grades. My nephew's future looked assured. And then on the
morning of Sept 25, 2015, he dropped dead to the floor of natural causes.

My nephew's passing was a terrible disappointment to everybody; but
actually we all kind of expected it. He was grossly overweight, had high
blood pressure and high cholesterol, rarely exercised, and used tobacco. But
the point is; my nephew's dream ended just as abruptly as flipping a light
switch. And all of our hopes for his success ended the same way

"His spirit goes out" refers to the breath of life as per Gen 2:7. It's entrance
into a human body springs it to life (Jas 2:26). In other words: the breath of
life isn't just a life force; no, the breath of life is quite sentient: it's the core
of one's existence as a being.

How does the human brain, a 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue,
produce the phenomena of memory, consciousness, individuality, and self
awareness? Why do humans have a sense of justice, of fair play, and a
desire for revenge? Why do humans prefer to be right rather than wrong?
Why be right and/or wrong at all? Why do humans want their lives to count
for something? From whence do humans get their feelings of guilt? Why
aren't humans amoral like the other creatures? Butterflies are free, why
aren't we?

Those kinds of questions cannot be answered on a physical level. There is an
element to human existence that is above and beyond an organic
explanation.

NOTE
: Jesus and Jonah pull the rug out from under Christ's anti-afterlife
opponents. For example: while the prophet's corpse reposed in the tummy
of a fish, Jonah went to a place that he described as the bottoms of the
mountains.

According to Matt 12:40, Jesus went to the bottoms of the mountains too.
Now the only way he could do that while his corpse reposed on the surface
of the earth in a rock hewn tomb was if he and his body parted company.

/
 
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This ended up being a great discussion, contrary to intial beliefs in this thread haha, may God always be proven true. Hell and heaven are real things, it doesn't matter if the story is a parable or not, there is far too much evidence in the rest of scripture to prove that hell is a real place where sinners will go and burn in a literal fire. You would have to have a lot of horse blinders on to read something else into the Holy Scriptures of God.

do people want to get rid of hell so badly? It's all emotional reaction. I know that in my most sensitive times I really do question God about hell and if he's actually going to send "insert loved one here" and it really makes me sad and upsets me truly and dearly. But at the end I realize that I am a speck of sand on the beach of the day that doesn't change the fact that hell is a necessary place for Satan and all those who practice evil like Hitler and those who take advantage of the poor and needy etc... Imagine you tell someone to repent and turn to God and there was no hell... the person could just live their whole life in rebellion to God knowing that at the end of life they would just cease existing, this would almost give that sinner an upper hand over God haha. No my dear brothers and sisters, this will never happen.

"Do not fear those who can destroy the body and after this can do no more, but I will tell you who you should fear,
fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell" - Jesus
 

bbyrd009

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brokentuningfork said:
This ended up being a great discussion, contrary to intial beliefs in this thread haha, may God always be proven true. Hell and heaven are real things, it doesn't matter if the story is a parable or not, there is far too much evidence in the rest of scripture to prove that hell is a real place where sinners will go and burn in a literal fire. You would have to have a lot of horse blinders on to read something else into the Holy Scriptures of God.

do people want to get rid of hell so badly? It's all emotional reaction. I know that in my most sensitive times I really do question God about hell and if he's actually going to send "insert loved one here" and it really makes me sad and upsets me truly and dearly. But at the end I realize that I am a speck of sand on the beach of the day that doesn't change the fact that hell is a necessary place for Satan and all those who practice evil like Hitler and those who take advantage of the poor and needy etc... Imagine you tell someone to repent and turn to God and there was no hell... the person could just live their whole life in rebellion to God knowing that at the end of life they would just cease existing, this would almost give that sinner an upper hand over God haha. No my dear brothers and sisters, this will never happen.

"Do not fear those who can destroy the body and after this can do no more, but I will tell you who you should fear,
fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell" - Jesus
nope, no future hell, and no literal fire, that is completely ridiculous, and cannot be supported by Scripture, sorry. It has been interpreted for us in that way so that we might see and not see, and when you hold these views, you cannot reconcile vast swathes of Scripture. This is not to say that heaven and hell are not real; they are very real. But when you say "i am going to heaven when i die," you are refuting Scripture, which plainly tells us, in more than one place, "No one knows where they go when they die." "You do not know where you came from, or where you are going." et al.
 

bbyrd009

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now, don't get me wrong, you can hold that belief as long as you like, it is the Official Belief now, but it was not established without scribes, it is not in the Greek, although that started the scribing, and it def is not in the Hebrew; just go ask a Jew what they think of hell.

And i would like to refer you to a synopsis of our Book in the matter, to illuminate the Written account of the last time the Official Position was discredited, if i may:

These be from the things which, after the Passion of the Master, Nikodemos recorded and delivered to the chief Kohen and the rest of the Yhudim: the same Nikodemos set them forth in Hebrew. The Kohanim and scribes had assembled in council, and Ananus and Kaiaphas, and Somne, and Dothaim, and Gamaliel, Yhudas, Levi, and Nepthalim, Alexander, and Yairus, and the rest of the Yhudim, and they came unto Pilate accusing Yeshua for many deeds, saying, We know this man, that he is the son of Yoseph the builder, begotten of Maryah, and he says that he is a king and Son of Elohim: moreover he pollutes the Shabbatot, and he would destroy the laws of our fathers. Pilate says, And what things are they that he does, and would destroy the law? The Yhudim say, We have a law that we should not heal any man on the Shabbat: but this man of his evil deeds has healed the lame and the bent, the withered and the blind and the paralytic, the dumb and them that were possessed, on the day of the Shabbat! Pilate says to them, By what evil deeds? They say to him, He is a sorcerer, and by Beelzebub the prince of the devils he casts out devils, and they are all subject to him. Pilate says to them, This is not to cast out devils by an unclean spirit, but by the god Asclepius. The Yhudim say to Pilate, We beseech your majesty that he appear before your judgement seat and be heard. And Pilate called them to him, and said, Tell me, how can I that am a governor examine a king? They say to him, We say not that he is a king, but he says it of himself! And Pilate called a messenger and said to him, Let Yeshua be brought herein, but with gentleness. And the messenger went forth, and when he perceived Yeshua he bowed to him, and took the kerchief that was on his hand, and spread it upon the earth, and said to him: Master, walk hereon and enter in, for the governor calls you. And when the Yhudim saw what the messenger had so done, they cried out against Pilate, saying, Wherefore did you not summon him by an herald to enter in, but by a messenger? for the messenger when he saw him bowed to him, and spread out his kerchief upon the ground, and has made him walk upon it like a king! Then Pilate called for the messenger, and said to him, Wherefore did you do this? having spread your kerchief upon the ground, and made Yeshua to walk upon it? The messenger says to him, Master governor, when you sent me to Yerushalem, unto Alexander, I saw Yeshua sitting upon a donkey, and the servants of the Hebrews held branches in their hands, and cried out, and others spread their garments beneath him, saying, Save now! You that are in the Highest: blessed is he that comes in the name of Adonai! The Yhudim cried out and said to the messenger, The servant children of the Hebrews cried out in Hebrew; how then have you that in the Greek? The messenger said to them, I did ask one of the Yhudim, saying, What is it that they cry out in Hebrew? and he interpreted it unto me. Pilate says to them, And how cried they in Hebrew? The Yhudim say to him, Hoshia-na! membrome barouchamma Adonai! Pilate says to them, And the Hoshia-na and the rest, how is it interpreted? The Yhudim say to him, Save now! You that are in the Highest: blessed is he that comes in the name of Adonai! Pilate says to them, If you yourselves bear witness of the words which were said of the servant children, wherein has the messenger sinned? And they held their peace. The governor said to the messenger, Go forth and bring him in after whatever manner you will. And the messenger went forth and did after the former manner, and said to Yeshua, Master, enter in, the governor calls you. But when Yeshua entered in, and the ensigns were holding the standards, the images of the standards bowed and did obeisance to Yeshua. And when the Yhudim saw the carriage of the standards, how they bowed themselves and did reverence unto Yeshua, they cried out above measure against the ensigns. But Pilate said unto the Yhudim, Marvel you not that the images bowed themselves and did obeisance unto Yeshua? The Yhudim say to Pilate, We saw how the ensigns made them to bow and did obeisance to him. And the governor called for the ensigns and said to them, Wherefore did you so? They say to Pilate, We are Yavaniy Greeks and servers of temples, and how then could we do him obeisance? For indeed, while we held the images they bowed of themselves and did obeisance unto him. Then said Pilate to the rulers of the assembly and the elders of the people, Choose you out able and strong men, and let them hold the standards, and let us see if they bow of themselves. And the elders of the Yhudim took twelve men, strong and able, and made them to hold the standards by sixes, and they were set before the judgement seat of the governor: and Pilate said to the messenger, Take him out of the Praetorium and bring him in again after whatever manner you will. And Yeshua went out of the judgement hall; both he and the messenger. And Pilate called to him those that before had held the images and said to them, I have sworn by the safety of Caesar that if the standards bow not when Yeshua enters in; I will cut off your heads! And the governor commanded Yeshua to enter in the second time. And the messenger did after the former manner, and besought Yeshua much that he would walk upon his kerchief: and he walked upon it, and entered in. And when he had entered, the standards bowed themselves again doing reverence to Yeshua.

And when Pilate saw it he was afraid and sought to rise up from the judgement seat. And while he yet thought to rise up, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have nothing to do with this just man: for I have suffered many things because of him by night. And Pilate called to him all the Yhudim, and said unto them, You do know that my wife fears Elohim and favors rather the customs of the Yhudim with you, correct? They say to him, Yea, we know. Pilate says to them, Behold, my wife has sent to me, saying, Have nothing to do with this just man: for I have suffered many things because of him by night. But the Yhudim answered and said to Pilate, Said we not unto you that he is a sorcerer? Behold, he has sent a vision of a dream to your wife! And Pilate called Yeshua to him, and said to him, What is it that these witness against you? Speak you nothing? But Yeshua said, If they had not had power they would have spoken nothing: for every man has power over his own mouth, to speak good or evil, they shall see to it. The elders of the Yhudim answered and said to Yeshua, What shall we see? Firstly, that you were born of fornication; secondly, that your generation in Bethlehem was the cause of the taking away of the man-servant sons; thirdly, that your father Yoseph with your mother Mariam along side fled into Egypt because he had no confidence in the people. Then said certain of them that stood by, devout men of the Yhudim, We say not that he came of fornication; but we know that Mariam was gifted unto Yoseph, and he was not born of fornication. Pilate said to those Yhudim which said that he came of fornication, This your saying is not true, for there were espousals, as these also say which are of your own nation. Ananus and Kaiaphas say to Pilate, The whole multitude of us cry out that he was born of fornication, and we are not believed: but these are proselytes and talmidim of his. And Pilate called Ananus and Kaiaphas unto him, and said to them, What be proselytes? They say to him, They were born sons of Yavaniy Greeks and now they are become Yhudim. Then said they which said he was not born of fornication, even Lazaros, Asterius, Antonius, Yacob, Amnes, Zenas, Samuel, Yitschak, Phineas, Krispus, Agrippa, and Yhudas: We were not born proselytes but we are sons of Yhudim, and we speak the truth; for verily we were present at the espousals of Yoseph and Mariam. And Pilate called unto him those twelve men which said that he was not born of fornication, and said to them, I adjure you by the safety of Caesar: are these things true which you have said, that he was not born of fornication? They say to Pilate, We have a law that we swear not, because it is sin, but let them swear by the safety of Caesar that it is not as we have said and we will be worthy of death. Pilate said to Ananus and Kaiaphas, Answer you nothing to these things? Ananus and Kaiaphas say to Pilate, These twelve men are believed, which say that he was not born of fornication, but the whole multitude of us cry out that he was born of fornication, and is a sorcerer, and says that he is a king and Son of Elohim, and we are not believed.

And Pilate commanded the whole multitude to go out, except the twelve men which said that he was not born of fornication, and he commanded Yeshua to be set apart: and Pilate said to them, For what cause do they desire to put him to death? They say to Pilate, They have jealousy, because he heals on the day of the Shabbat. Pilate says to them, For a good work they desire to put him to death? They say unto him, Yea. And Pilate was filled with indignation, and went forth without the judgement hall, and said to them, I call the Sun to witness that I find no fault in this man! The Yhudim answered and said to the governor, If this man were not a malefactor we would not have delivered him unto you. And Pilate said, Take him and judge him yourselves according to your law. The Yhudim said to Pilate, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death. Pilate then said, Has Elohim forbidden you to slay, and allowed me? And Pilate went in again into the judgement hall, and called Yeshua apart, and said unto him: Are you the king of the Yhudim? Yeshua answered him, and said, You tell me. Then said Pilate to the Kohanim and the Yhudim, I find no fault in this man. And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirs up and beguiles the people, teaching throughout all the Yhudim, beginning from the Galil to this place. When therefore Pilate heard of the Galilees, he asked whether the man were a Galilaean. And as soon as he knew that he belonged to the jurisdiction of Herod, he sent him to Herod, who himself also was at Yerushalem at that time. Then Herod questioned Yeshua with many words, and the Kohanim, elders, scribes, and Yhudim, stood and accused him vehemently: but Yeshua answered Herod nothing. And when Herod found nothing worthy of death in him, after having mocked him with his men of war, having arrayed him in a royal robe, he sent him back again to Pilate. And Pilate again said to Yeshua, Are you the king of the Yhudim? Yeshua answered and said to Pilate, Say you this thing of yourself or did others tell it you of me? Pilate answered Yeshua, Am I also a Yhudiy? Your own nation and Kohanim have delivered you unto me: what have you done? Yeshua answered, My kingdom is not of this world, for if my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have fought that I should not be delivered unto the Yhudim: but now is my kingdom not from this side. Pilate said again to him, Are you then a king? Yeshua answered him, You say that I am a king: but for this cause was I born and am come, that every one that is of the truth should hear my voice. Pilate says to him, What is truth? Yeshua says to him, Truth is of the heavens. Pilate then says, Is there not truth upon the earth? Yeshua says to Pilate, You see how that they which speak the truth are judged of them that have authority upon earth.
sites.google.com/site/elaiasindex/
 

Phoneman777

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bbyrd009 said:
nope, no future hell, and no literal fire, that is completely ridiculous, and cannot be supported by Scripture, sorry. It has been interpreted for us in that way so that we might see and not see, and when you hold these views, you cannot reconcile vast swathes of Scripture. This is not to say that heaven and hell are not real; they are very real. But when you say "i am going to heaven when i die," you are refuting Scripture, which plainly tells us, in more than one place, "No one knows where they go when they die." "You do not know where you came from, or where you are going." et al.
Of course there will be a future fiery, burning, blazing hell, in which the wicked are cast, suffer according to each's sinful deeds, and then burned up and out of existence. Plenty of Scripture supports this.

I'm interested in hearing whichever verse you believe supports what sounds like to me Universalism
 

Phoneman777

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Webers_Home said:
Ps 146:4 . . His spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground; in that day his
thoughts do perish.

So then, an alternative to the Watchtower Society's theology is that people
don't go out of existence when they die. Their cognitive processes don't stop
working; no, Ps 146:4 only means that whatever was on their minds while
they were alive is now null and void.
So, your body literally goes down, the Spirit literally goes up to the "God Who gave it", but "thoughts perishing" is a symbolic phrase?

Wrong, friend. Genesis 2:7 KJV proves that the Living Soul exists only as a consequence of the union between the Body and teh Breath of Life which in turn demands that when this union is broken, the Living Soul ceases to be along with the "thoughts, emotions, etc." which are attributes of the Living Soul.
 

bbyrd009

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Phoneman777 said:
Of course there will be a future fiery, burning, blazing hell, in which the wicked are cast, suffer according to each's sinful deeds, and then burned up and out of existence. Plenty of Scripture supports this.
in your opinion, perhaps; but it is hardly a settled issue. An Othodox Jew would cringe at your concept of "hell," and would not be able to relate it to his concept of "Gehenna" at all. Gehenna is in Erets.



I'm interested in hearing whichever verse you believe supports what sounds like to me Universalism
I think the nature of the Revelation of Christ as it relates to us getting there "step by step" as the Body of Christ who have His Spirit right here coupled with Understand I AM make religions like Universalism, that focus on some future, conditional personal escape to appeal to those who have had their fill of the really conditional personal escape offered by most Christian religions, but the focus is still basically the same. Your personal redemption, in the future. It is self-centered, and ignores the contributions that might be made today. In the end, it is immoral.

So, i am finding discussions with some nebulous future outcome as the focus to be just about the same as eschatology, or any other form of prognostication or divination, i guess


I'

m interested in hearing whichever verse you believe supports what sounds like to me Universalism
 

cga

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theophilus said:
Why do you think the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable? It seems to me that he was describing something that actually happened. In the Old Testament all who die, whether they are good or bad, are said to go to a place called Sheol. In the New Testament this place is called Hades. When he told about the rich man and Lazarus Jesus was revealing new information about what Sheol was like.

Since the death and resurrection of Jesus those who are righteous go to a place called Paradise, which is in heaven. Jesus told the repentant criminal that they would be together in Paradise that same day. You can find out more about this subject here: https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/lazarus-and-the-rich-man-parable-or-actual-event/
You haven't thought this through. If Jesus Christ did indeed go to Paradise that same day he died, to supposedly be with one of the thieves, then why is it said he was in Sheol, which is also said to be in center of the earth (not a great place for "Paradise" I might add) for 3 days and 3 nights?

For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption. (Psalm 16:10 [ESV])

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40 [NIV])
 

bbyrd009

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the heart of the earth.

See, to God, you are in hell when you die, spiritually; and physical death--which is how you mis-translate Scripture, the Spiritual Book--is completely irrelevant to God, which is revealed in many, many places in the Book. You are occupied with saving your own soul, for all eternity, and you will doom yourself if you do not cease doing this. And your path will be obvious to everyone else, ok, even as you imagine that you are "serving" others, by imparting your "knowledge" from On High, oblivious, now, to the lack of any quickening engendered; unable to see the death reflected in the faces of your (surely captive) audience.

There is more Holy Spirit in a strawberry shortcake than this, guys. You were meant for greater things. Understand I AM.
 

Phoneman777

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bbyrd009 said:
in your opinion, perhaps; but it is hardly a settled issue. An Othodox Jew would cringe at your concept of "hell," and would not be able to relate it to his concept of "Gehenna" at all. Gehenna is in Erets.




I think the nature of the Revelation of Christ as it relates to us getting there "step by step" as the Body of Christ who have His Spirit right here coupled with Understand I AM make religions like Universalism, that focus on some future, conditional personal escape to appeal to those who have had their fill of the really conditional personal escape offered by most Christian religions, but the focus is still basically the same. Your personal redemption, in the future. It is self-centered, and ignores the contributions that might be made today. In the end, it is immoral.

So, i am finding discussions with some nebulous future outcome as the focus to be just about the same as eschatology, or any other form of prognostication or divination, i guess

I'

m interested in hearing whichever verse you believe supports what sounds like to me Universalism
Opinion has nothing to do with this, friend, but Scripture:

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:9 KJV