The Cross And Moses' Bronze Serpent

Webers_Home said:

In other words: though his crucifixion was sufficient to obtain forgiveness for
people's sins; Christ's crucifixion alone wasn't sufficient to render people
innocent. Though pardoned, people would have been stuck with a guilty
conscience for ever and ever.

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Why do you say that?
What is the Biblical evidence?

If we have been forgiven our sins why would we have a guilty conscience for ever and ever?

Webers_Home said:

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God never sweeps sins under the rug.

● Ex 34:6-7 . . Yhvh, Yhvh God: compassionate and gracious, slow to anger,
and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps loving kindness for
thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no
means leave the guilty unpunished

● Nahum 1:3 . . Yhvh is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all
acquit the wicked

Looking at those two scriptures one cannot help but scratch their head and
wonder how it's possible that God forgives the guilty, and yet at the same
time does not acquit the guilty. Well; the answer to that is quite simple:
forgiveness and acquittal are two very different things in the Old Testament.

In other words; though God forgives the guilty, He never clears the guilty;
viz: forgiveness in the Old Testament is merely a reprieve; which Webster's
defines as: to delay the punishment of someone; such as a prisoner who is
sentenced to death. In point of fact, Yom Kippur, though a day of cleansing,
is also a day for the Jews to remember that their sins are still on the books,
hanging over their heads like a sword of Damocles.

But God has devised a procedure for rescuing the Jews from their rather
precarious position.

● Isa 53:5-6 . . He was pierced through for our transgressions, he was
crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him,
and by his scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way; but the Yhvh has caused the iniquity
of us all to fall on him.

Christ's crucifixion is commonly referred to as a vicarious substitutionary
sacrifice. But that's a misnomer because the Bible does not allow for
substitutions. The soul that sins; it shall die in its own place rather than
another soul in its place because that would not be justice; in point of fact,
that would be a miscarriage of justice. No; people themselves have to die for
their sins.

So; in order for Christ's crucifixion to protect people from the wrath of God,
it has to be, in some way, accounted as their own as well as his; and God
has invented an ingenious way for them to do that very thing by means of a
baptism that involves neither clergy nor H2O.

● 1Cor 12:12-13 . . For even as the body is one and yet has many members,
and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so
also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether
Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of
one Spirit.

Seeing as how this particular baptism is supernatural rather than physical,
then of course it's to be expected to make no sense whatsoever. However, in
a nutshell; what this particular baptism does is make people participants in
Christ's crucifixion instead of merely observers.

● Rom 6:3 . .Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into
Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

● Rom 6:6 . .Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

● Gal 2:20 . .I am crucified with Christ

● Col 3:3 . .For you died when Christ died

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Your analysis has some merit in that it is correct to say that after forgiveness some punishment remains. However you fail to understand that there are two kinds of punishment.

The eternal punishment due for serious sin is spiritual death - everlasting separation from God in hell.
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Mt 10:28)

The punishment that Ex 34:7 is referring to is not that kind of punishment.

Ex 34:6-7: The LORD passed before him, and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, 7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

You see, you missed off the last part of Ex 34:7. It is a punishment in time; a punishment that can be expiated here in this life. It is what the Catholic Church calls temporal punishment. It's nature is more a matter of discipline and the consequences of sin in this life, not in the life to come. The children and children's children do not go to hell because of the father's sins.

God states that very clearly in Ez 18. You need to read the whole chapter, but verse 30 summarises it: "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." In this God is not referring here to temporal punishment but to (everlasting) death as can be seen in the rest of chapter 18 concluding with verses 31-32
"Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of any one, says the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

You suggest that guilt cannot be forgiven. But that is not what Jeremiah says:
"I will cleanse them from all the guilt of their sin against me, and I will forgive all the guilt of their sin and rebellion against me." (Jer 33:8)

And the Psalmist says:
I acknowledged my sin to thee, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; then thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin." (Psalm 32:5).

You say:
"The soul that sins; it shall die in its own place rather than another soul in its place because that would not be justice; in point of fact, that would be a miscarriage of justice. No; people themselves have to die for their sins."
Souls that sins do not have to die if God forgives their sins.

Christ teaches us this in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Lk 15:11-32) and the Debtor (Mt 18:23-35).
The debt can be forgiven.

By Christ's death we can be reconciled to God:
"He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is to condemn?" (Rom 8:32-34).

In view of this error the rest of your post is in error also.

Moreover our sins are forgiven in baptism (with water) and we have a clean conscience. That is why Peter says: Baptism, which corresponds to this [Noah & family saved by water], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet 3:21).
You see - no guilty conscience.

We are cleansed by the blood of Christ.
According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Heb 9:22)
The blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1Jn 1:7)
To him [Jesus] who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood (Rev 1:5)

To have our sins washed away we must come into contact with the blood of Christ that he shed on the cross. How do we do that?
Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (Rom 6:3)
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. And even when you were dead (in) transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he brought you to life along with him, having forgiven us all our transgressions; (Col 2:11-13)

When we are baptised into Jesus’ death we spiritually come into contact with his blood and we are cleansed from sin. When Ananias told Paul ‘Get up and have yourself baptised and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’ (Acts 22;16), it was by Jesus’ blood that Paul’s sins were washed away - forgiven and he could have a clear conscience, no guilt remaining.

Webers_Home said:

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By means of the baptism spoken of in post #22, people become naturalized
citizens of Christ's kingdom; so that when he returns to rule the world, they
will already have a place for themselves in the realm.

● Col 1:12-13 . . Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share
in the inheritance of the saints in light. For He delivered us from the domain
of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son

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Baptism (with water) bring us many blessings. It brings us into the New Covenant; it forgives sins; it makes us members of Christ's body, the Church; it renews us.

Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

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He was speaking of us dying with Him not water baptism, see sons of Zebedee, " are you willing to drink of my cup(suffering) and to be baptized of my Baptism(death)".

Webers_Home said:

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● Heb 10:21-23a . . Since we have a great priest over the house of God, let
us draw near to God with a sincere heart, in full assurance of faith, having
our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience

Sprinkling was a common ritual in the Old Testament-- sometimes with
water, sometimes with oil, and sometimes with blood --for example: Ex
29:16, Ex 29:21, Lev 14:7, Lev 14 16, and Num 8:7, et al.

Sprinkling typically serves to de-contaminate someone or some thing in
order to make it suitable for God's purposes. Well, in point of fact; none of
the Old Testament's sprinklings served to cleanse people's conscience once
and for all time. They had to keep bringing one sacrifice after another in a
perpetual stream of sacrifices because each sacrifice cleansed their
conscience just that one time instead of for all time.

The Bible says that Christ was raised again for our justification. (Rom 4:25).
The Greek word is dikaiosis (dik-ah'-yo-sis) which essentially means
acquittal-- a legal term that can be roughly defined as the act of adjudicating
that a person is not guilty. In other words; an acquittal is a legal
declaration of innocence.

Now the interesting thing about this is that Christ's believing followers are
never actually innocent.

● 1John 1:8-9 . . If we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and
His word is not in us.

However, His son's resurrection made it possible for God to cleanse the
consciences of Jesus' believing followers once and for all time. In other
words: their consciences may never in this life be truly free of guilt, but the
sprinkling sanitized their consciences so effectively that God can legally, and
justifiably, declare Christ's believing followers innocent for all time.

● Heb 10:14 . . By one offering he has perfected for all time those who are
sanctified.

Seeing as how God is the supreme court in all matters pertaining to sin, then
in order for a prosecutor to make a charge stick against one of Christ's
believing followers, the prosecutor would have to convince God that the
accused is indeed guilty. Well; that would be very difficult seeing as how God
has already ruled that Christ's believing followers are innocent for all time.

● Rom 8:33 . . Who will bring any charge against those whom God has
chosen? It is God who justifies.

So then; in order to adjudicate one of Christ's believing followers guilty, God
would have to reverse Himself; and that is not likely to happen.

● Rom 11:29 . . God's gifts, and His call, are irrevocable.

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In the Old Covenant there seem to have been three occasions when ritual bathing (tevilah) in a ritual bath (mikvah) required in Leviticus, those involving birth (including sex and menstruation), death (including skin diseases), and coming into the presence of God. They seem to be a reminder of our uncleanness and the need for purification. So the mikvar also became a symbol of repentance, of expressing faith that cleansing was available and of asking for it. Hence John the baptist could baptised in the River Jordan (a mikvah) for the forgiveness of sins (Mk 1:4).

Jesus took this Jewish ritual and made it a Christian one (Mt 28:19 and Mk 16:16) but making the effects more powerful because it is Jesus who is the prime baptiser.
We can see the three purposes I noted above in Christian baptism.

Birth – we are born from above (born again) in baptism (Jn 3:5)

Death – Paul compares baptism to dying with Christ and rising to new life. There are two connotations here because entering a mikvar involved physical descent and coming out a physical ascent (rising), something Paul would be very aware of. (Rom 6:3-4 and Col 2:11-12). When Jews became Christians the public and private mikvahs became used for baptism instead.

Coming into the presence of God and forgiveness of sin – In baptism we are made children of God and our sins are forgiven (1Cor 12:12-13, Col 2:11-13, Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16).


To justify is, as some say, to make us just-as-if- I had never sinned. It is much more than a mere legal declaration. God truly does forgive us and renew us in baptism. You seem to have a very legalistic mindset. When we come to our Father in heaven and ask for forgiveness, as Jesus taught us to (Mt 6:9-12) we approach him as the loving and merciful Father not as a legal judge. He forgives us not just declares a legal acquittal.

Jeremiah says:
"I will cleanse them from all the guilt of their sin against me, and I will forgive all the guilt of their sin and rebellion against me." (Jer 33:8)

And the Psalmist says:
I acknowledged my sin to thee, and I did not hide my iniquity; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; then thou didst forgive the guilt of my sin." (Psalm 32:5).

Hebrews says:
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb 10:22).
When we are baptised we can have a clean conscience just as Peter said:
Baptism, which corresponds to this [Noah & family saved by water], now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1Pet 3:21).

Heb 10:16-17, quoting Jeremiah, says:
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more."
When we are baptised we come into the New Covenant, our sins are all forgiven, washed away (Acts 22:16) and God remembers our sins no more. We are not just legally acquitted.

You really ought to read the parable of the Prodigal Son (Lk 15:11-32). Jesus tells us there how our Father wants to treat us - as a loving and merciful Father. It is the older brother who is legalistic and judgemental
You claim that "God has already ruled that Christ's believing followers are innocent for all time."

That is untrue. Once Saved Always Saved is a unbiblical and dangerous doctrine. You pluck Heb 10:14 out of context to make this claim, despite the rest of Hebrews clearly writing against it. Here are some:

Heb 3:5-6 Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, 6 but Christ was faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope.

Take care, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. (Heb 3:12)

For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end (Heb 3:14)

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. (Heb 4:1)

Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience (Heb 4:6)
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful (Heb 10:22)

Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised. (Heb 10:35-36)

Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Heb 12:14)

See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled (Heb 12:15)

Robert Sungenis explains Heb 10:14
Although some opponents (such as Rhodes and White) may interpret the clause in Hebrews 10:14(...made perfect forever those who are being made holy) as suggesting that the salvation of Christian is complete and totally secure with no possibility of falling away, this is not what the verse is teaching. We can see this by the way the word "perfect" is used in the book of Hebrews. According to Hebrews 10:1-2, the individual's "perfection" refers to having his sins completely forgiven in order that the conscience may be free of guilt, something which the Old Covenant law could not provide (cf., 7:19;9:9). Thus, the individual stands "perfect" because his past sins have been completely forgiven, not because he has reached a perfect state which eliminates the possibility of losing his state of grace. It follows, then, that the use of "perfect" here does not mean that the individual cannot retard the sanctification process, or that his eternal perfection is a foregone conclusion (cf., Hebrews 11:40; 12:23). The verbal form chosen for "being sanctified" is a Greek participle of continuing action, which specifies the process of sanctification, a process by which we are continually forgiven of our sins, albeit now it is a complete or "perfect" forgiveness for the sins we have confessed. In other words Christ did not make a blanket forgiveness of sin but has perfected the process by which sin is forgiven when it is confessed.

Webers_Home said:

● Isa 52:14 . . Just as there were many who were appalled at him-- his
appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred
beyond human likeness.

What did that? It wasn't the Romans. They treated Jesus pretty bad, but not
that bad. No; it was his own father who did that to Jesus (Isa 53:10). Well;
if God would do that to His own son-- the one son whom He loves above all
others --do you think He will do any less to people who mock Christianity
and poke fun at Jesus' crucifixion?

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Of course it was the Romans. Read the gospels.

God the Father did not beat up his own Son. He did not pour out his wrath upon him as many protestants claim. Such a notion is gross and introduces discord into the Godhead.
Jesus gave himself up voluntarily:

"when he makes himself an offering for sin...." (Is 53:10)

"I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord." (Jn 10:15-18)

"By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us" (1Jn 3:16)

"Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God" (Eph 5:2)

Eph 5:2 says the same as Is 53:10 - Jesus gave himself as an offering for sin.

Who wrote this webers home, Was it you? http://forum.bible-discussion.com/showthread.php?42521-Early-Childhood/page2

kepha31 said:

Webers Home posts the same anti-Catholic garbage in 3 or 4 different forums under different names. Rarely does he engage in discussion.

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Yes seen it a mile away.

Webers_Home said:

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There will be no democracy in Christ's kingdom.

● Ps 2:7-12 . . I will proclaim the decree of Yhvh:

. . . He said to me: You are my Son; today I have become your Father. Ask
of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth
your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them
to pieces like pottery.

. . .Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned, you rulers of the earth. Serve
Yhvh with fear and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and
you be destroyed in your way, for his wrath can flare up in a moment.

● Luke 19:27 . . But those enemies of mine, who did not want me to be king
over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me.

In Luke 2:29, Acts 4:24, 2Tim 2:21, 2Pet 2:1, and Rev 6:10), the Greek
word for lord and/or master is despotes (des-pot'-ace) from which we get
our English word despot.

Webster's defines a despot as: 1) a ruler with absolute power and authority,
and 2) a person exercising power tyrannically

One of Webster's definitions of tyranny is: a government in which absolute
power is vested in a single ruler.


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You are correct to say there is no democracy in Christ's kingdom.. He is the king and has all authority. He passed authority down to Peter, his vicar on earth and his successors, and to the apostles and their successors the Bishops of the Catholic Church.

However you are wrong to see God as some kind of tyrannical despot.
This is from the reading at Mass today:

Isaiah 11:1-4
A shoot springs from the stock of Jesse,
a scion thrusts from his roots:
on him the spirit of the Lord rests,
a spirit of wisdom and insight,
a spirit of counsel and power,
a spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.
(The fear of the Lord is his breath.)
He does not judge by appearances,
he gives no verdict on hearsay,
but judges the wretched with integrity,
and with equity gives a verdict for the poor of the land.
His word is a rod that strikes the ruthless,
his sentences bring death to the wicked.


And the Psalm
O God, give your judgement to the king,
to a king’s son your justice,
that he may judge your people in justice
and your poor in right judgement.
In his days justice shall flourish
and peace till the moon fails.
He shall rule from sea to sea,
from the Great River to earth’s bounds.
For he shall save the poor when they cry
and the needy who are helpless.
He will have pity on the weak
and save the lives of the poor.
May his name be blessed for ever
and endure like the sun.
Every tribe shall be blessed in him,
all nations bless his name.
Psalm 71:1-2,7-8,12-13,17

God is just not a tyrannical despot.

You have a seriously wrong understanding of God, as I have pointed out already (posts #23, #29, #30). If you approach God as a (Just) Judge then you will receive judgement and condemnation. But if you approach God as a loving Father then you can ask for mercy and forgiveness and not condemnation.

Webers_Home said:

Yes, human beings were created with a free will, but they were not created
with an unlimited free will. All but eight antediluvians died in Noah's Flood
against their will; including senior citizens, handicapped folk, toddlers,
pregnant moms, and everybody's pets.

God burned all the people to death against their will in the cities of Sodom
and Gomorra save for Lot's wife and two unmarried daughters. Lot's married
daughters died in the conflagration; along with all of Sodom's pregnant
moms, all of it's children, its babies, and its toddlers, and all their pets too.

In addition; there are millions of people suffering in Hell right this moment
who are there against their will because the Almighty's free will trumps their
free will.

The cosmos-- with all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --is like a huge
model railroad put together in the garage of a hobbyist. God Himself is the
hobbyist who built the whole model with His own hands, and with materials
that He created Himself out of nothing. He owns every stick of it, and every
living thing on it, including the human lives-- they are all His own private
property to do with, and to dispose of, as He pleases: and He retains an
undisputed right to confiscate all the belongings of the human lives, and the
right to deny them their next breath of His air, and He has an owner's
prerogative to scrap the whole thing and throw it out in the trash if He wants
to and nobody has the right to stop Him nor to question His motives. God is
sovereign, and human beings are nothing in the world but stupid little
insects in comparison.

● Isa 40:22 ...It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the
inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as
a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Not only are human beings stupid little cosmic insects, but also noxious
weeds; viz: little more than human wildlife.

● Isa 40:6 ...The voice said; Cry! And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is
grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field

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You are confusing free will with power and freedom of action.

Theologically, free will is about moral choices - choosing to do right not wrong; choosing to be obedient to God not disobedient.

Moses put it well:
"See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you this day, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."
Dt 30:15-20

People are in Hell because they chose to do evil and reject God.

why is Nehushtan invoked in this title? ty

Webers_Home said:

In response to their insolence; Yhvh sent a swarm of deadly poisonous3
reptiles among them; which began striking people; and every strike was3
100% fatal, no exceptions. In no time at all, much people of Israel died.
Then those not yet dead got nervous and appealed to Moses for help. In
reply; the Lord instructed Moses to construct a model of the beasts and hoist
it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look
to it for immunity.

Now the key issue here is that the model was the only God-given remedy for
the people's terminal condition-- not purity, not sacrifices and offerings, not
tithing, not church attendance, not missionary work, not confession, not holy
days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not charity, not scapulars, not self
denial, not self control, not good deeds, not good behavior, not piety, not
Bible study and Sunday school, not catechism or yeshiva, not one's religion
of choice, not suffering, not sellf denial and/or self control, not the so-called
golden rule, not vows of poverty and/or chastity, not the Ten
Commandments, not the Eucharist; no, none of that: not even prayers. The
model was it; viz: it was all or nothing at all-- there was no other option.
Whoever failed to look to that model for immunity died: no exceptions.

In other words then: Christ's sacrifice of himself to satisfy justice for the sins
of the world is the only God-given option for protection from the second
death depicted at Rev 20:11-15. The default is terminal; no exceptions.
People relying upon any way other than putting all their trust in Christ's
crucifixion, are dead men walking.

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oh, i see it now; i found it. So, ok, you haven't found Nehushtan yet. More steps on that ladder still, bro.

Mungo said:

Theologically, free will is about moral choices - choosing to do right not wrong; choosing to be obedient to God not disobedient.

Moses put it well:
"See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you this day, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."
Dt 30:15-20

People are in Hell because they chose to do evil and reject God.

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nice

Mungo said:

2. Given your false assumption, when Jesus speaks to Nicodemus, he would be saying "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of Spirit and Spirit" - obvious nonsense.

3. Immediately after the exchange with Nicodemus Jesus goes and baptises in the river Jordan - real H2O. He does not introduce the metaphor of living water until later.

When Jesus says "no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit" he means just that. reborn/ renewed by means of water (H2O) and the Holy Spirit, just as Paul says in Ti 3:5
"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit".
You see - water (H2O) and Spirit.

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Jesus states that one must be "born again". This is also translated: "begotten from above" because the word Jesus is using in the Greek can be used either way. Since Nicodemus is clearly using it incorrectly, it stands to reason that Jesus is using it correctly. As backwards as this may seem, Nicodemus uses it in terms of the mother giving birth while Jesus uses it in terms of a Father begetting. The key here is that both are at least on the same page as to this metaphor having something to do with the birth process. We should be able to see that it is nothing we do, but something that is done to us, whether it be being begotten or being born, these are not things that we do when we are begotten or born. So what type of begetting or birth is it? Well, it certainly isn't a physical one as this is Nicodemus' perspective. So that leaves a spiritual one, and Jesus makes this distinction as well with: "that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit" and never the twain shall be confused.

Then to drive the point home, Jesus then says: "The Spirit breathes where he will, you hear the sound of his voice, but you know not where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with all who are born of the Spirit".(vs.8)

Another way to confirm this is to see that when the author uses this phrase, "water and spirit" he is using the figure Hendiadys or "two for one", i.e. two words used but only one thing meant. In a nutshell, he is speaking of spiritual water. The allusion is in relation to a physical birth with water breaking, but contrary to popular opinion this, i.e. a physical birth; is not being presented as a requirement for the spiritual birth. That only one thing is meant by the two words is clear by verses 6 and 8 where only the Spirit (the one) is mentioned. There is nothing in any of the imagery presented that lends itself to ceremonial baptism.

So Jesus is saying: "Except a man be born of spiritual water he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." That spiritual water stands for the Holy Spirit Himself as is clear from John 7:38,39 "water-(but this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive...)"