All Israel will be saved

Heb 13:8 said:

The same way they can't see the Gospel of faith, probably. 2 Cor 4:4.


Pre-wrath is the only answer.

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Exactly, if Revelation is still describing "the beast" going to war against the saints and overcoming them by Revelation 13, then you would think that would disprove all notions of any pre-trib or mid-trib rapture. That only leaves us with the pre-wrath rapture, of which Jesus Christ made very clear is the case in Matthew 24.

Dcopymope said:

You claimed to be saved without the remission of sins when you claimed that we already existed as sons of god before the creation of the earth. First of all, we never existed in heaven or anywhere else as spirit beings before the creation account. Secondly, no one can claim to be a son of god until they repent of their sins and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. For any human to claim to be a son of god after the fall before the reconciliation of the creation to the Father through his son is to claim to be saved as a son of god before the remission of sins. If you want to play dumb, we can play that game, as you spread your blatant heresy.

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You have a lot 2 learn,will just leave at at that....

Some are not meant 2 see,that's why He spoke in parables

Fact remains it's scriptual,yu just won't accept it...

@dc

Yu really believe we were created at birth?

Dcopymope said:

I'll ask the same question I asked before; Where are the elect being taken to? Are they being taken to Foreman Mills? McDonald's? A cave? Costco? Or are they going to be taken up into the clouds like scripture plainly states we will? I don't understand how someone can't see the rapture in scripture. Personally, I believe in the pre-wrath rapture, because its made quite clear that this is the case in the same chapter. First comes the beginning of sorrows and then the great tribulation, the days of which will be shortened for the elects sake on the Day of the Lord. This is as clear as day to me.

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I would ask you to compare Mt 24:29 with the events of the sixth Seal in Rev 6:12-14.
I refer to them as the same event: the sun/moon/star sign.
This cosmic sign, precedes the Day of the Lord as written in Joel 2:31.

In the wedding process of the first century, after the groom has spent his time away from his betrothed, and 'prepared' a place for her (as Jesus said He would do in John 14:1-3) he would come back at night with a noisy band of his fellows with trumpet blasts and torches, and he would stop outside her father's house and call her out. She would then leave her home and join him and his friends and they would go back to his father's house for the wedding ceremony and subsequent feast.

I put it to you that Jesus comes from His Father's House in Heaven, and meets us in the air, and then, after removing us from our homes, takes us back to where He is now and has been before the Day of the Lord when He Returns.

The process of having the "wheat" taken to the barn (of Heaven) is then seen coincidental with the sixth Seal of Revelation when the Great Multitude suddenly show up before the Father.

So we are taken to Heaven.
Before the tares are burned in the field of this world with the first Trumpet.
Which also happens on the second half of the Day of the Lord.

Dcopymope said:

Exactly, if Revelation is still describing "the beast" going to war against the saints and overcoming them by Revelation 13, then you would think that would disprove all notions of any pre-trib or mid-trib rapture. That only leaves us with the pre-wrath rapture, of which Jesus Christ made very clear is the case in Matthew 24.

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That's right Dcop. Rev 12:7 and war against the saints begins at the middle of the 70th week, the same time the great trib starts. So what are your thoughts on Rev 12:1-2 coming to pass on 9/23/17. Pretty exciting huh.

Dcopymope said:

Exactly, if Revelation is still describing "the beast" going to war against the saints and overcoming them by Revelation 13, then you would think that would disprove all notions of any pre-trib or mid-trib rapture. That only leaves us with the pre-wrath rapture, of which Jesus Christ made very clear is the case in Matthew 24.

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Sorry, that is talking about the Jewish saints at midtrib .. those who appear in heaven in Rev 7:9 out of the great tribulation. But we know that in Rev 6:9 AntiChrist has martyred many church saints .. the left behind for their "testimony" regarding the "word of God." So prewrath .. yes, pretrib.

skypair

Heb 13:8 said:

That's right Dcop. Rev 12:7 and war against the saints begins at the middle of the 70th week, the same time the great trib starts. So what are your thoughts on Rev 12:1-2 coming to pass on 9/23/17. Pretty exciting huh.

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What have you seen that makes you think the great tribulation will start next year? According to what? I'm not expecting the great tribulation to start any time soon. If I were to give an estimate, I would say close to thirty years from now. Any longer than that would be pushing it. There is too much that has to occur to even be thinking of the great tribulation at this point.

Dcopymope said:

What have you seen that makes you think the great tribulation will start next year? According to what? I'm not expecting the great tribulation to start any time soon. If I were to give an estimate, I would say close to thirty years from now. Any longer than that would be pushing it. There is too much that has to occur to even be thinking of the great tribulation at this point.

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Now why would I think the great trib begins on 9/23/17, when I believe the great trib begins in the middle of the 70th week. Remember, we're both pre-wrath, lol. I believe Rev 12:1-2 is in connection with Israel in Micah 5:2-3. The son being in labor.

keras said:

Re; a rapture to heaven; this never was and never will be God's plan for His people. Why should we today, be any different that the millions of martyrs killed for their faith?
1Thess 4:15-17 does NOT say heaven is the destination for us as we rise to meet the Returning Jesus. He is about to land onto the Mount of Olives, there is no point in us going anywhere else, as well.

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You're in for a big surprise keras, and I do hope you are born again. - Heb

keras said:

Re; a rapture to heaven; this never was and never will be God's plan for His people. Why should we today, be any different that the millions of martyrs killed for their faith?

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Because we restrain and withhold "that Wicked," the AntiChrist. (2Thes 2:6-8) He cannot be revealed until we are gone to New Jerusalem, Rev 3:10-12. However, it appears that your tradition is not biblical so you wouldn't know about that anyway.

skypair

keras said:

Jesus said that His chosen people would always be with Him.

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Ah! The great teacher of satanic bible verses gets it wrong again. (keras says the rapture verse of 1Th 4:17 is a satanic lie)

Mt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

He is with us, not the other way around. He's with us right now. And right now, He's in Heaven.

The only ones who never leave His side are the 144,000.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

You really, really have to check everything this guy says.

skypair said:

Because we restrain and withhold "that Wicked," the AntiChrist. (2Thes 2:6-8)

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The restrainer is not the church, it's Michael the angel at the abomination of desolation. The word "arise" in Dan 12:1 is translated "amad" and can also mean to...

1. stand still, stop, cease moving, of moon Joshua 10:13 (J E; "" וַיִּדֹּם), sun Joshua 10:13, both, Habakkuk 3:11; of person 1 Samuel 9:27 (opposed to עָבַר), 2 Samuel 2:28 (opposed to רָדַף), עִמְדוּ עֲמֹ֫דוּ Nahum 2:9 +; stop flowing (of oil) 2 Kings 4:6; remain standing, with תַּחְתֵּינוּ Judges 7:21; 1 Samuel 14:9 etc.; of eruption in skin = remain unchanged Leviticus 13:23,28; so (without ׳ת) Leviticus 13:5,37 (all P).
2. be inactive 2 Chronicles 20:17 (opposed to לְהִלָּחֵם, + הִתְיַצְּבוּ).
3. stop, cease doing a thing 2 Kings 13:18; with מִן Genesis 29:35; Genesis 30:9 (both J), Joel 1:15.
4. tarry, delay Genesis 45:9 (E), Joshua 10:19 (J E; opposed to רָדַף), 1 Samuel 20:38 (opposed to מְהֵרָה, חוּשָׁה), +.
5. stand afar מֵרָחוֺק Exodus 20:18,21 (E), Isaiah 59:14; Psalm 38:12, ׳בְּר Psalm 10:1; ׳מִנֶּגֶד מֵר 2 Kings 2:7; stand aloof, מִנֶֹּגֶד Obadiah 11; Psalm 38:12.
6. stand (silent) Job 32:16.
7. grow flat, insipid (Gie), taste of wine Jeremiah 48:11 (figurative of Moab), or remain unchanged (so most, in that case compare 3b). — עָמְדִי Daniel 11:1b is corrupt, read probably עָמַדְתִּי, or עָמַד (מִיכָאֵל subject), join then to Daniel 10:21 and strike out Daniel 11:1a; so Bev Behrm MartiKau.

Why does Michael stop moving? So God can send them a strong delusion Zech 11:10 NIV, 2 Thess 2:10-12 NIV, Rev 13:13 NIV. It is clear that there are angelic powers over world empires and leaders and nobody is going to come to power in the land of Israel if the angel of Israel (Michael) prevents them.

Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

2 Thess 2:6-12 NIV And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Rev 12:6-12 NIV The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

skypair said:

He cannot be revealed until we are gone to New Jerusalem, Rev 3:10-12.

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Rev 3:10 is not rapture. It's actually about Martyrdom.

Martyrdom Explanation / John 17:15 NIV, Rev 2:26-27 NIV, Rev 3:10 NIV, Rev 3:12 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

The Greek translation for being victorious and being protected by God means you either survive to the end or die for Christ. We will still be on earth..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC0QXpxm4ZI

John 17:15 NIV My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect (téreó) them from the evil one.

Rev 2:26-27 NIV To the one who is victorious (nikaó) and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept (téreó) my command to endure patiently, I will also keep (téreó) you from the hour of trial (peirasmos) that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Rev 3:10 Greek Version - Because thou hast observed my word to wait patiently for my return, I also will preserve thee at a distance from the moment of trouble sent by God to prove faith, holiness and character, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 3:12 NIV The one who is victorious (nikaó) I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

Rev 12:11 NIV They triumphed (nikaó) over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

Definitions
John 17:15 NIV, Rev 3:10 NIV Keep or Tereo - Not Rapture - b. metaphorically, to keep: τινα, one in that state in which he is, τήν ἑαυτοῦ παρθένον,

Rev 3:10 Trial or Peirasmos - adversity, affliction, trouble (cf. our trial), sent by God and serving to test or prove one's faith, holiness, character: plural, Luke 22:28; Acts 20:19;

Rev 2:26-27, Rev 3:12, Rev 12:11 Victorious or Nikaó- a. absolutely, to carry off the victory, come off victorious: of Christ, victorious over all his foes, Revelation 3:21; Revelation 6:2; ἐνίκησεν ... ἀνοῖξαι κτλ. hath so conquered that he now has the right and power to open etc. Revelation 5:5; of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and their temptations and persecutions,

Oh my God.
According to the great writer of satanic verses, God will destroy His Elect if they refuse to swear by His Name.

keras said:

Just continue to show everyone your bias and ignorance. Your scathing replies, without any scriptural rebuttal, are worthless.

Since Jesus came and offered salvation to everyone who believes in Him, it is Christians who are the elect of God. Are you so blinded and deceived, stuck as all rapture to heaven fooled people are, that you are unable to understand that the Jews are just the same as the rest of the world; their only salvation is to accept Jesus.

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So you're non-osas correct.

Heb 13:8 said:

The restrainer is not the church, it's Michael the angel at the abomination of desolation. The word "arise" in Dan 12:1 is translated "amad" and can also mean to…

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See .. I knew you would have another narrative .. one that I have heard before that makes a mockery of the text. One sits down to rest and stands up to ACT.

Why does Michael stop moving?

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So God can send them a strong delusion Zech 11:10 NIV, 2 Thess 2:10-12 NIV, Rev 13:13 NIV. It is clear that there are angelic powers over world empires and leaders and nobody is going to come to power in the land of Israel if the angel of Israel (Michael) prevents them.[/quote]
The strong delusion is Mt 13:39-41. AntiChrist will claim that those taken are the tares and that he is Christ at His 2nd coming. This is written in God's word and that is how the delusion comes from God. And YOU are going to be soooo ready for that to happen, aren't you?



Dan 12:1 NIV “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.[/QUOTE]
We know for sure who is written in the book — the 144,000.

Rev 3:10 is not rapture. It's actually about Martyrdom.

Martyrdom Explanation / John 17:15 NIV, Rev 2:26-27 NIV, Rev 3:10 NIV, Rev 3:12 NIV, Rev 12:11 NIV

The Greek translation for being victorious and being protected by God means you either survive to the end or die for Christ. We will still be on earth..

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I will say, you have the false narrative down pat.

I'm sorry. I am very familiar with what you are saying and it revises just enough words to ring true .. though it is not. Jesus is coming back to receive us to Himself that where He is, "there we may be also" And where I am going, you know; and the way, you know." (Jn 14:1-4) He gave John a vision of just that in Rev 4-5 which occurred just prior to the opening of the seals. If you really understood Rev 2-3, you would know that anyone left behind and converted, whether martyred or not, will have an EARTHLY existence in the Millennial Kingdom of Christ per 2:26-27.

skypair
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n2thelight said:

@dc

Yu really believe we were created at birth?

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Are you for real?

(Isaiah 44:24) "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

(Jeremiah 1:5-6) "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. {6} Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child."

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To form something is to create something, and he didn't form you from heaven, but from the moment of conception in your mothers belly. He knew you beforehand because he knows the future. The same word is used for the creation of the earth. He formed it to be inhabited just like he formed you from the moment your father stuck his short sword into your mothers sandwich hole and carpet bombed it with his tomahawk cruise missiles. What is it about this simple mathematical equation that you are not understanding? Does 2 + 2 = 4 to you? Or are you going to continue to disagree with scripture so you can keep believing that you were the first human formed, son of God before Adam, to make yourself feel special?