All Israel will be saved

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Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
[SIZE=medium]Not only does the bible [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]not[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] teach that there are two distinct peoples of God, Israel and the Church,[/SIZE]
Rev 12:7 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Nope, no difference. Nothing to see here folk. Move along, move along...

The "woman" is Israel: Gen 37:9-10. Her offspring are us: the Elect.
​God will unite both in Jesus,
​and the reason for the Millennium is to do just that: the taming of the shrew.
 

keras

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Revelation 12:6-17 is all about Christians.
They divide into two groups as Daniel 11:32 says. Both Christians, but some fail to keep their faith. Zechariah 14:2 also tells of these two groups: one must stay, the other exiled.

Verse 7, you quote refutes your premise - the rest of her children.... the children of Jesus, the man child taken to heaven.

Every true Christian is an Israelite of God, be they Jew or from any race and nation. The idea that the Jewish State, the apostate, atheistic and LGBT people of Israel at present have any part to play is refuted by many prophesies.
Only those who have the unbiblical notion of a rapture, must think they do!
 
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n2thelight

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
Rev 12:7 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Nope, no difference. Nothing to see here folk. Move along, move along...

The "woman" is Israel: Gen 37:9-10. Her offspring are us: the Elect.
​God will unite both in Jesus,
​and the reason for the Millennium is to do just that: the taming of the shrew.
Curiosity question ,what makes you think you are of the elect?

I ask because,being saved does not make one an elect....
 

Heb 13:8

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
Rev 12:7 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Nope, no difference. Nothing to see here folk. Move along, move along...

The "woman" is Israel: Gen 37:9-10. Her offspring are us: the Elect.
​God will unite both in Jesus,
​and the reason for the Millennium is to do just that: the taming of the shrew.
What are your thoughts on..https://i.ytimg.com/vi/towfvY461dg/maxresdefault.jpg

n2thelight said:
Curiosity question ,what makes you think you are of the elect?

I ask because,being saved does not make one an elect....
It doesn't? oh please explain. :rolleyes:
 

Heb 13:8

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n2thelight said:
Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

The elect are chosen
and who do you think the chosen are son. John 3:3.
 

keras

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In Ephesians 2:11-22, Paul tells us that Christian believers are the true Israelites of God. He pointedly contradicts the dispensational assertion that God has different redemptive purposes for national Israel and for the church. According Paul, the purpose of the New Covenant is to remove the ethnic distinctions between Jew and Gentile, which had been dividing them. Paul says that Jesus came to tear down the barrier wall which formerly divided the two, in order to make the two peoples into one so as to combine Jew and Gentile together into the one living temple of the Lord: the Christian church. In this spiritual temple, Christ is the chief cornerstone, and the foundation is the prophets and apostles.

Rapture believers will concede that this is God’s purpose for the present age, but they say ethnic Israel’s separate role resurfaces again after the Rapture when the Gentile church is removed from the earth. This dual redemptive purpose then carries on throughout the millennial age after Christ comes back. If true, this means that it is Jesus’ purpose to make the two peoples one is only temporary. John 17:22
They think God intends to divide ethnic Jews from the Gentiles at the rapture.
Of course, this is nonsense. In fact, such a view makes the future millennial age different from Christ’s redemptive purpose under the New Covenant. On these terms, the as yet future millennium marks a return to Old Testament types and shadows and ignores the fact that the reality is Christ. This not only means that redemptive history takes a giant U-turn after Christ comes back, amounting to a reversal back to the types and shadows which preceded the coming of the Messiah and it completely ignores the very thing Christ came to do: make the two peoples one by removing all ethnic divisions which previously divided believers!
All Scripture; especially the Prophetic Word, must be read through a Christ centered hermeneutic, not a dispensational one that believes ethnic Israel on earth and the ‘Church’ taken to heaven.
The truth destroys the ‘rapture to heaven’ theory. There is no separate Israel and Church.

Jesus is the true Israel, and everyone He bought by His blood, people from every tribe, race, nation and language are His Christian followers and are God’s Israelites.
And the Lord’s people have the task of being His witnesses and displaying His Light to the nations. Escaping to heaven is simply impossible.
 

n2thelight

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Heb 13:8 said:
and who do you think the chosen are son. John 3:3.
Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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keras said:
In Ephesians 2:11-22, Paul tells us that Christian believers are the true Israelites of God.
Which does NOT ALLOW you to take every verse for natural Israel and translate as applying to the Church.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Heb 13:8 said:
and who do you think the chosen are son. John 3:3.
When we look at eklektos in the Olivet Discourse, all kinds of people say it means all kinds of different things.
But what we ought to ask is: "What did the author mean when he wrote it?"
So we have to look at how the New Testament authors used the word. Scripture interprets Scripture.

When we look at how eklektos is used, when it is used to denote people (aside from Angels), it is used exclusively for the Church.

Chosen:
MT 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
LK 18: 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?
LK 23:35 …if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One" (Chosen One)
ROM 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?
RO 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, (choice man)
COL 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people
1Pe 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
1PE 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God
1PE 2:6 "See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,

1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God,
1JN 1:1 To the chosen lady and her children,
2JN 1:13 The children of your chosen sister send their greetings
REV 17:14 -and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
Elect:
1TI 5:21 Christ Jesus and the elect angels,
2TI 2:10 for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus,
NIV

So in Mt 24;31, we can say that "Elect" means the Church.

Going back to the OT using the Septuagint can allow you to say this word means the Jews, as God's Chosen people. But we have to look at the use in the NT by only the NT authors.

Matthew, Mark and Luke were written decades after the fact in a language which Jesus probably did not speak (there is no evidence He spoke Greek).

So whatever understanding they had then, was tempered by the fact that a considerable amount of time had passed until the first book of the Gospel was written.
(And there is not only disagreement about which was first, but scholars are also unable to pinpoint a year and instead have a range of years which is around 20 years after the fact.)

Acts 10:47 describes how Peter was amazed that the Holy Spirit had been poured out to the Gentiles. This is before Paul's first missionary journey which occurred in A.D. 46-48 (Acts 13:4-14:28).

SO ~ when the Gospel was written (even by the earliest estimate) - the understanding the authors had then - led by the Holy Spirit - was NOT that Elect meant only Israel!

So if you're looking for original intent- then you have to understand it as the author intended and that means you have to look at Elect past the sense the word has in the Septuagint: you have to do your exegesis in light of the New Testament. The Septuagint is just the Old Testament in the Greek; it does not aid in understanding the author's intent in the New Testament.
 

keras

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
Which does NOT ALLOW you to take every verse for natural Israel and translate as applying to the Church.
Yes, there are some verses that do apply to ethnic Jewish Israel. The context determines it.
But we Christians are the inheritors of God's promised blessings to Israel. Galatians 3:29 is crystal clear. Deny the truth and grip onto the false rapture at your peril.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Oops! Somebody said "clear"!

And Paul saying that "we" were "under the law" does NOT mean that Galatians -who were originally were Celts who came to Asia Minor in migration in the third century B.C.- were under the Law! They were never Jewish!

Proving once again that keras is the last one to provide context.
He still hasn't corrected himself as far as Isaiah 30:26's day of healing doesn't mean the sun explodes when it shines brightly. As opposed to the darkening of the skies with God's Wrath...
 

Heb 13:8

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
I can tell you with absolute certainty on my part that NOTHING will happen on September 23, 2017 as far as the Rapture goes.
That's because it's a sign of things to come.

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
 

n2thelight

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
When we look at eklektos in the Olivet Discourse, all kinds of people say it means all kinds of different things.
But what we ought to ask is: "What did the author mean when he wrote it?"
So we have to look at how the New Testament authors used the word. Scripture interprets Scripture.

When we look at how eklektos is used, when it is used to denote people (aside from Angels), it is used exclusively for the Church.

Chosen:
MT 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
LK 18: 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night?
LK 23:35 …if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One" (Chosen One)
ROM 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?
RO 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, (choice man)
COL 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people
1Pe 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
1PE 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God
1PE 2:6 "See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,

1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God,
1JN 1:1 To the chosen lady and her children,
2JN 1:13 The children of your chosen sister send their greetings
REV 17:14 -and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
Elect:
1TI 5:21 Christ Jesus and the elect angels,
2TI 2:10 for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus,
NIV

So in Mt 24;31, we can say that "Elect" means the Church.

Going back to the OT using the Septuagint can allow you to say this word means the Jews, as God's Chosen people. But we have to look at the use in the NT by only the NT authors.

Matthew, Mark and Luke were written decades after the fact in a language which Jesus probably did not speak (there is no evidence He spoke Greek).

So whatever understanding they had then, was tempered by the fact that a considerable amount of time had passed until the first book of the Gospel was written.
(And there is not only disagreement about which was first, but scholars are also unable to pinpoint a year and instead have a range of years which is around 20 years after the fact.)

Acts 10:47 describes how Peter was amazed that the Holy Spirit had been poured out to the Gentiles. This is before Paul's first missionary journey which occurred in A.D. 46-48 (Acts 13:4-14:28).

SO ~ when the Gospel was written (even by the earliest estimate) - the understanding the authors had then - led by the Holy Spirit - was NOT that Elect meant only Israel!

So if you're looking for original intent- then you have to understand it as the author intended and that means you have to look at Elect past the sense the word has in the Septuagint: you have to do your exegesis in light of the New Testament. The Septuagint is just the Old Testament in the Greek; it does not aid in understanding the author's intent in the New Testament.
The Elect are not the Church perse

The best example I can give for who the Elect are is Paul

Paul was persecuting Christians before the road to Demascus

Why did Christ interfere in his life?

The answer is because he was chosen,before the foundation of the world .

The below better explains what I can't put into words

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

What does it mean to be "chosen"?

It means that there are certain people that God chosen in the first earth age, to do a task for Him in this flesh earth age. This is not reincarnation, for it is appointed for each of us to go through this earth age, the flesh earth age, once and only once. We read; "...It is appointed unto men once to die [in the flesh], but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27 This appointing and choosing took place before the foundation of this earth age; the second earth age [cosmos] that we now live in.

"Without blame" refers to the fact that God intercedes in certain peoples lives. Certain people have free will, while certain others are of God's election, however, God doesn't play favorites. Christ died for the sins of all who will repent; the chosen, and the free-will. All must repent for sins they commit, and love the Lord Jesus Christ, to have the hope of His glory.

"Before the foundation of the world", [cosmos in the Greek, meaning world or earth age.] The "foundation" in the Greek text, is the verb for, "the overthrow". This refers to something that happened in that first earth age, before the overthrow of Satan and his angels that followed him. When Satan fell [war against God], one third of all angelic beings [God's children] followed Satan. Then during that war, there were some who fought against Satan, and those who did, God calls "His Chosen". They took a stand, and were overcomers in that first earth age.
Have you ever wondered why you do the things that you do, at times. It's just like you have a destiny. You have always felt their is more to life, and this world, then what you have been taught. Paul addresses this in Romans 8:27. In verse twenty six it says that there are times in your life when the Holy Spirit makes intercession for you because you don't even know what to pray for.

"And he that searcheth the heart knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8:27 These saints are "the set-aside ones", or "the chosen". God has a overall plan, and a purpose in that plan just for you. That purpose is to bring back His children to Him; after that overthrow, and in this earth age.

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"
"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5
"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.
"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

Certain of God's children stood against Satan in the first earth age, and those that did stand, and did not follow Satan; God judged [justified], and He "chose" them then to be used in His eternal plan. Through God's perfect plan, God "predestined", and "ordained" each of them to His purpose to be used in this flesh age. Each of these will also be used in the Millennium age as priests, or called the "Zadok".
When you become a Christian, and God has given you a working over, He is trying to wake you up. God is calling out a people, His people, the "Elect-chosen, and predestined" to stand against the Antichrist [Satan] in this final generation.

http://www.theseason.org/ephesians/ephesians1.htm

If one could just understand that we were with the Father before being born,scripture comes together perfectly,at least for me....
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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n2thelight said:
The Elect are not the Church perse

The best example I can give for who the Elect are is Paul

Paul was persecuting Christians before the road to Demascus

Why did Christ interfere in his life?

The answer is because he was chosen,before the foundation of the world .

The below better explains what I can't put into words

If one could just understand that we were with the Father before being born,scripture comes together perfectly,at least for me...
Jeremiah 1:5 applied to us? I don't think so. I think that verse describes our LORD Jesus.

Saying we were with God before being born is a concept that the Mormons keep. That's why they call their youth: Elders. Nonsense.

Saying "Elect" is not the Church without addressing every instance it is used in the New Testament, that is used for the Church is appallingly deficient in proposing "Elect" doesn't mean that at all.

If you want to confuse the timeless aspect of God so as to stretch our existence to before that spark of life formed when sperm meets egg (and it does - in an exciting new discovery made just this last year) - then you can have at it all you want if it makes you feel better.

As for me, I like Einstein note that none of us had a vote in whether we came into this world at all, and once here, and leaving childhood, wonder what it all means and where we are going when we are no more here again.
 

n2thelight

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
Jeremiah 1:5 applied to us? I don't think so. I think that verse describes our LORD Jesus.

Saying we were with God before being born is a concept that the Mormons keep. That's why they call their youth: Elders. Nonsense.

Saying "Elect" is not the Church without addressing every instance it is used in the New Testament, that is used for the Church is appallingly deficient in proposing "Elect" doesn't mean that at all.

If you want to confuse the timeless aspect of God so as to stretch our existence to before that spark of life formed when sperm meets egg (and it does - in an exciting new discovery made just this last year) - then you can have at it all you want if it makes you feel better.

As for me, I like Einstein note that none of us had a vote in whether we came into this world at all, and once here, and leaving childhood, wonder what it all means and where we are going when we are no more here again.
Yet He hated Esau before he was even born,the question you need to ask yourself is why.

Gave you scripture,if you can't believe or don't understand,it's all good...

As for Jer 1:5

So you saying He (God)knew Christ before He was born?

It's plain to see He was talking about Jeramiah....