See if this helps you understand salvation…

Jun2u said:

I know you don’t like for people to repeat things but sometimes it is necessary to make for clarifications. And so again, I repeat, Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning, and that makes the whole Bible a parable (Mark 4:12-13), and is also known throughout the world as the “Greatest Story Ever Told.”
In the parable of the Wheat and Tares, Jesus explained who or what the wheat and tares represented. There is no difference in the language of Luke 16 we’ll just have to determine what character represents whom as I will try to explain below who these are. Immediately however, we know Luke 16 is a parable because we read that Lazarus was carried by the angels straight to Abraham’s bosom. I don’t recall this ever happening to any one before. God took Enoch but does not tell us how and Elijah went up in a whirlwind into heaven. If Luke 16 is not a parable where then did the rich man’s tongue and eyes come from seeing he was in hell?
God did not open our spiritual eyes to the truths of Luke 16. I think He wanted us to search out the Bible like the Bereans. I believe the Biblical explanations and representations of the characters of Luke 16 mentioned are these:
1 Father Abraham = is a representation and type of God the Father.
2 Lazarus = is a representation and typifies all believers who are safe in the arms of God.
3 The rich man = is a representation and typifies all the unsaved of the world.
4 Moses and the prophets = is a representation of the commandments of God.
5 The term “though one rose from the dead” = is a term that points to Jesus.

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There is no indication that Luke 16 and Lazarus is a parable but regardless you advocating that parables are not true stories?
There is nothing in Scripture that demonstrates parables are not true story in fact the language used in The Parables indicates that they are true stories taken out of life. Jesus as God would know these stories and would know how to effectively use them to drive home a point which of course he always did.

Jun2u said:

“Abraham’s bosom” typifies the Father ’s care for the believers. Believers are safe in the arms of God. Indeed Lazarus went to the Father.
This is not possible since there is a gulf fixed between heaven and hell that we read about in verse 26.

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Abraham's bosom is just not the place where Abraham and all believers awaited their inheritance based on their face and it definitely is not having or where God is because Jesus said no man has seen God. (John 1:18)
This is the problem when you've cherry-picked verses out of context and use them in an eisegetical manner.
Abraham's bosom is Paradise and what is referred to in verse 26 is the chasm that existed between believers and non-believers in their temporary abode because neither Paradise nor Hell is permanent, it is only temporary.

Jun2u said:

This preparation for a place for the believers is a done deal! The only way Jesus could prepare a place for the believers in God’s house was for Him to go to the cross, and defeat Satan. That is exactly what He did (Matthew 12:29; Revelation 20:1-2). Where is God's house? In paradise or in heaven?

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God's houses we're Believers gather together corporately is Paul shows in 1st Timothy 3:14-15. The place Jesus prepared for believers in heaven is the New Jerusalem which if you read Revelation 21 comes down out of heaven. Have you not ever studied any of this? How long have you actually been studying the Bible? Why do you think there are so many aspects of the New Jerusalem that referred to the apostles and their leadership in the church? Those are the things that Jesus prepared.

Jun2u said:

The problem I believe for many Christians having wrong doctrines is that they don’t bother to search out scriptures, the deeper and spiritual meaning of scriptures, to see if their conclusions are harmonious with the rest of the Bible. And sometimes or most of the time, they will take the work of another person and adopt it. It’s like the blind leading the blind.

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I totally agree, and your misconceptions and false teachings about the word give clear illustration to this point. Just remember that Jesus is capable of delivering you from your blindness.

Jun2u, on 20 Dec 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:
The problem I believe for many Christians having wrong doctrines is that they don’t bother to search out scriptures, the deeper and spiritual meaning of scriptures, to see if their conclusions are harmonious with the rest of the Bible. And sometimes or most of the time, they will take the work of another person and adopt it. It’s like the blind leading the blind.

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Actually its because they wont take things to God and ask Him, to busy trying to prove themslevs worthy by there own wisdom,'' even teh bible states,

Joh_6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

and as he spoke in a parable


Luk 11:5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;
Luk 11:6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?
Luk 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
Luk 11:8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

so all one needs is Christ for He God and teh Holy Spirirt are all in agreement and revelation that whcih reveals teh truth only comes form god, not reading books.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

mjrhealth said:

Actually its because they wont take things to God and ask Him, to busy trying to prove themslevs worthy by there own wisdom,'' even teh bible states,

Joh_6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

and as he spoke in a parable


Luk 11:5 And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves;
Luk 11:6 For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him?
Luk 11:7 And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee.
Luk 11:8 I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

so all one needs is Christ for He God and teh Holy Spirirt are all in agreement and revelation that whcih reveals teh truth only comes form god, not reading books.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

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Good points


To God Be The Glory

This is not possible since there is a gulf fixed between heaven and hell that we read about in verse 2

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lol. But it once again becomes possible when the "gulf" between between two seekers is observed, as they stand right next to each other.

This is not possible since there is a gulf fixed between heaven and hell that we read about in verse 26.

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Actually "was", Jesus changed all that.

A few things concerning heaven.

First the concept of Abraham's bosom is from a parable. Jesus is not telling of an actual event, rather He is using language people can understand to explain a specific point. We need to understand the point that was made as opposed to being dogmatic about the details of the story.

Second Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, in heaven. Paul contends:
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Paul is stating we will be present with the Lord when we (believers) are absent from the body.


Then we have this from John's vision:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,e were killed just as they had been.

This event was witnessed in heaven. Evidently there are souls of men and women in heaven.

​Finally the argument of Jesus' statement:
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

Jesus now is the Mediator between God and man after His death on the cross. Jesus did ascend into heaven. (Acts 1:9) Now after His ascension Jesus receives all believers unto Himself in heaven. No one ascends as Jesus did in power and glory witnessed by the angels, we are received in and through Jesus' glory honoring Him and the Father.

i dunno, we have examples of those "honoring Him and the Father," a few, here and there, and they all seem to pull off this magic ascending act, with all due respect, don't they? You know who i mean, Enoch, Moses, the "whirlwind" guy, Ezekiel or whoever, so i'd say don't be too sure, keep your mind open there, ok.

justaname said:

A few things concerning heaven.

First the concept of Abraham's bosom is from a parable. Jesus is not telling of an actual event, rather He is using language people can understand to explain a specific point. We need to understand the point that was made as opposed to being dogmatic about the details of the story.

Second Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, in heaven. Paul contends:
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Paul is stating we will be present with the Lord when we (believers) are absent from the body.

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yes, which reads as being dead as we understand it, but that is not what Paul is talking about

Then we have this from John's vision:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,e were killed just as they had been.

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and so now, by the fifth seal, one is surely deep into some future, eschatological journey, and encouraged to make prognostications about tomorrow, rather than grasp the Revelation of Christ, in them, as the seals are opened.

This event was witnessed in heaven. Evidently there are souls of men and women in heaven.

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this event is witnessed when the fifth seal is opened, and it is witnessed as "under the altar," which you are led to read is in heaven, where there is no gender, yet you are reading about boys and girls, "fellow" servants, "brothers and sisters." Which of course anyone would, being as how the Temple is "in heaven." But i tell you that heaven is coming here, and Christ is being revealed here, on earth--or rather in Eretz is a better way to put it--as these seals are opened, in you. "Slain brothers and sisters, under an altar" is meant to evoke the imagery of...well, i don't wanna say too much, but "under the altar" has a meaning that is not being recognized here wadr.

Plus, notice that all the seals are presented as like "woes," right? "Future" woes? So what, the "fifth" seal is like a little "woe break," or something? "We're gonna take a little intermission here, and pass out White Robes to boys and girls who got killed for their testimony, before the Big Finale here, the Humongous Gory Physical Battle that you here in the future are about to witness; fifth seal, white robes (and some popcorn, maybe), sixth seal, complete world annihilation."

One can put The Revelation wherever you like, in your mind, ok, but understand that now the whole Book of Rev is now inapplicable to you, right now, and wadr what you got now is a Book of Mush that makes no sense and you can argue endlessly about the future with it, and let It give you visions and dreams, if you like.

justaname said:

A few things concerning heaven.

First the concept of Abraham's bosom is from a parable. Jesus is not telling of an actual event, rather He is using language people can understand to explain a specific point. We need to understand the point that was made as opposed to being dogmatic about the details of the story.

Second Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father, in heaven. Paul contends:
we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.[/size]
Paul is stating we will be present with the Lord when we (believers) are absent from the body.


Then we have this from John's vision:[/size]

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. [/size]10[/size]They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” [/size]11[/size]Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[/size]e were killed just as they had been.[/size]

This event was witnessed in heaven. Evidently there are souls of men and women in heaven.

​Finally the argument of Jesus' statement:
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.[/size]

Jesus now is the Mediator between God and man after His death on the cross. Jesus did ascend into heaven. (Acts 1:9) Now after His ascension Jesus receives all believers unto Himself in heaven. No one ascends as Jesus did in power and glory witnessed by the angels, we are received in and through Jesus' glory honoring Him and the Father.

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First of all, just because something is a parable does not mean that it isn't true or does not convey the true situation that happened. As Jesus Is God and knows all, then he would know that these stories happened.
Secondly, what Paul actually said was;
Therefore we are always full of courage, and we know that as long as we are alive here on earth we are absent from the Lord— for we live by faith, not by sight. Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So then whether we are alive or away, we make it our ambition to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.
What Paul is stating here is his preference, not what actually happens when we die. Most of us know that we will only be at home with Jesus when he returns for his church or if as the thief on the cross did we see him in Paradise.
Where exactly is it written in Scripture that "Jesus receives all believers unto Himself in the heaven"? You have quite a knack for working and making things sound like that come from the scriptures when in fact they don't. Did you learn that from the people that taught your doctrinal positions?

StanJ said:

First of all, just because something is a parable does not mean that it isn't true or does not convey the true situation that happened. As Jesus Is God and knows all, then he would know that these stories happened.
Secondly, what Paul actually said was;
Therefore we are always full of courage, and we know that as long as we are alive here on earth we are absent from the Lord— for we live by faith, not by sight. Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So then whether we are alive or away, we make it our ambition to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.
What Paul is stating here is his preference, not what actually happens when we die. Most of us know that we will only be at home with Jesus when he returns for his church or if as the thief on the cross did we see him in Paradise.
Where exactly is it written in Scripture that "Jesus receives all believers unto Himself in the heaven"? You have quite a knack for working and making things sound like that come from the scriptures when in fact they don't. Did you learn that from the people that taught your doctrinal positions?

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Paul's preference is directed to, "at home with the Lord". Paul is talking about death. Because he prefers it has no bering on the content of his subject. To be away from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul knows when one is not present in the body, it immediately goes to the Lord, the mediator between God and man, either unto eternal life for those who believe or unto judgement. Jesus receives all men unto Himself (John 12:32) because He is our Mediator, and for some He is our High Priest. (Hebrews 4:14)

Your understanding of paradise is as flawed as your choice of hermeneutics for a parable. Paradise is being in the presence of God, as is heaven. The two are synonyms. To be with God is to be in heaven. (Ephesians 2:6-7)

I am not taught doctrine, rather Greek and Hebrew, hermeneutics, Church history, ancient near eastern history, and things of the like. The process I use to interpret the text is called exegesis. You should try it sometime.

justaname said:

Paul's preference is directed to, "at home with the Lord". Paul is talking about death. Because he prefers it has no bering on the content of his subject. To be away from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul knows when one is not present in the body, it immediately goes to the Lord, the mediator between God and man, either unto eternal life for those who believe or unto judgement. Jesus receives all men unto Himself (John 12:32) because He is our Mediator, and for some He is our High Priest. (Hebrews 4:14)

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More mental gymnastics on your part. You really feel justified in saying that Paul's preference has no bearing on the subject matter? How do you say that with a straight face and still be a proponent of proper biblical hermeneutics?
Paul does not say 'to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord', that's your doctrinal bias poking through. What Paul wrote is; "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
One simple question... where is home for the believer?

justaname said:

Your understanding of paradise is as flawed as your choice of hermeneutics for a parable. Paradise is being in the presence of God, as is heaven. The two are synonyms. To be with God is to be in heaven. (Ephesians 2:6-7)

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Well that's your opinion but how exactly is Paradise heaven given what Jesus said in John 1:18? How could Abraham be in heaven if Jesus said no man has seen God except the Son who is himself God? The flaw is you thinking you're right and everybody else is wrong.

justaname said:

I am not taught doctrine, rather Greek and Hebrew, hermeneutics, Church history, ancient near eastern history, and things of the like. The process I use to interpret the text is called exegesis. You should try it sometime.

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You learned your doctrine and then took your chosen courses to support your pre-existing bias. I'm sure you didn't choose to take courses from a facility that didn't support RT.

StanJ said:

First of all, just because something is a parable does not mean that it isn't true or does not convey the true situation that happened. As Jesus Is God and knows all, then he would know that these stories happened.
Secondly, what Paul actually said was;
Therefore we are always full of courage, and we know that as long as we are alive here on earth we are absent from the Lord— for we live by faith, not by sight. Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So then whether we are alive or away, we make it our ambition to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.
What Paul is stating here is his preference, not what actually happens when we die.

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i suggest that "alive" has now been conflated with "in the body" there, and the sense is still not correct, and Paul is not meaning that he wishes he was dead, wadr, sorry. Even if that is how it can be read. Note the following verses:

(6So, we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
7For we •walk by faith,j not by sight,k)

"8and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.l "

see, because of the context, one is invited to mis-interpret this verse, wherein Paul might be understood to be talking about some after-life, when it does not have to be read that way, but might also be taken as an explanation of a historical event, or a current reality, for Paul, just like meeting Him in the Air was.

9Therefore, whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to be pleasingm to Him.

and this verse backs it up, just in case one is mis-interpreting, because of course one cannot please God anymore once they are dead as we understand it.

Most of us know that we will only be at home with Jesus when he returns for his church or if as the thief on the cross did we see him in Paradise.
Where exactly is it written in Scripture that "Jesus receives all believers unto Himself in the heaven"? You have quite a knack for working and making things sound like that come from the scriptures when in fact they don't. Did you learn that from the people that taught your doctrinal positions?

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ahem. A few of us know that we are with Christ, right now, too, and that there is not going to be any REturn, some people just need to turn lol. No offense meant there.

StanJ said:

More mental gymnastics on your part. You really feel justified in saying that Paul's preference has no bearing on the subject matter? How do you say that with a straight face and still be a proponent of proper biblical hermeneutics?
Paul does not say 'to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord', that's your doctrinal bias poking through. What Paul wrote is; "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
One simple question... where is home for the believer?
Well that's your opinion but how exactly is Paradise heaven given what Jesus said in John 1:18? How could Abraham be in heaven if Jesus said no man has seen God except the Son who is himself God? The flaw is you thinking you're right and everybody else is wrong.
You learned your doctrine and then took your chosen courses to support your pre-existing bias. I'm sure you didn't choose to take courses from a facility that didn't support RT.

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Home for the believer is with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven. This is why Jesus said heaven in in your midst...

Compare this to John 1:18...

44 And Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. - John 12:44-45

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
4 And you know the way to where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? - John 14:3-9

Jesus is with the Father. The Father is in heaven...

justaname said:

Home for the believer is with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven. This is why Jesus said heaven in in your midst..

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how do you get from here to "Paul was talking about death?" (which he surely was not)

bbyrd009 said:

how do you get from here to "Paul was talking about death?" (which he surely was not)

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Indeed Paul was talking about death in 2 Corinthians 5:8!
Upon death there is a separation between body and soul. When an unsaved person dies both his body and soul go to a place of silence called hell and then he is destroyed (Matthew 10:28; Isaiah 26:14; 66:24), however, when a believer dies his body goes to the grave as like the unsaved, but in his soul existence/essence, he could go to be with Christ in heaven, as he had been given eternal life upon conversion/salvation, then his body will be resurrected on the last day. For eternal life was promised by God to all believers before the foundation of the world (Titus 1:2; 3:7; 1 John 5:11).
This is the reason Enoch could go to heaven.
This is the reason Elijah could go to heaven
This is the reason David could go to heaven upon death.
This is the reason every true believer can go to heaven upon death.
Because Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)!


To God Be The Glory

Jun2u said:

Indeed Paul was talking about death in 2 Corinthians 5:8!
Upon death there is a separation between body and soul. When an unsaved person dies both his body and soul go to a place of silence called hell and then he is destroyed (Matthew 10:28; Isaiah 26:14; 66:24), however, when a believer dies his body goes to the grave as like the unsaved, but in his soul existence/essence, he could go to be with Christ in heaven, as he had been given eternal life upon conversion/salvation, then his body will be resurrected on the last day. For eternal life was promised by God to all believers before the foundation of the world (Titus 1:2; 3:7; 1 John 5:11).
This is the reason Enoch could go to heaven.
This is the reason Elijah could go to heaven
This is the reason David could go to heaven upon death.
This is the reason every true believer can go to heaven upon death.
Because Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8)!


To God Be The Glory

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ya, to God be the glory, when you recognize that Paul clearly was not referencing physical death! lol
so "death" now, is separating you from the love of God, in this model.
i could get even more pointed, but you have to see the fallacy here.
it is not a holistic interpretation, and Paul is always, always, always, talking to you, personally, about your life with Christ, right now, and never, ever, ever, no matter how much someone tries to convince you otherwise, talking about any nebulous future existence, wherein you are currently waiting for Jesus, ok. If you have a verse or passage that seems to read that way, then just put on some eyes, and read it right, or at least keep an open mind whenever you are led to envision some prognostication about some future existence based upon a passage of Paul's, please, because Paul Understood I AM better than anyone, and we are plainly told that Scripture is written so that we may see and not see, and this is exactly what that means. Home for a believer is with the Lord, and the Lord is in heaven, right now, as near as the kingdom is, to you.

bbyrd009 said:

ya, to God be the glory, when you recognize that Paul clearly was not referencing physical death! lol
so "death" now, is separating you from the love of God, in this model.
i could get even more pointed, but you have to see the fallacy here.
it is not a holistic interpretation, and Paul is always, always, always, talking to you, personally, about your life with Christ, right now, and never, ever, ever, no matter how much someone tries to convince you otherwise, talking about any nebulous future existence, wherein you are currently waiting for Jesus, ok. If you have a verse or passage that seems to read that way, then just put on some eyes, and read it right, or at least keep an open mind whenever you are led to envision some prognostication about some future existence based upon a passage of Paul's, please, because Paul Understood I AM better than anyone, and we are plainly told that Scripture is written so that we may see and not see, and this is exactly what that means. Home for a believer is with the Lord, and the Lord is in heaven, right now, as near as the kingdom is, to you.

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I apologize for this late response but people get busy this time of year.
In a classroom situation, a student is said to be absent if that person is not there. On the other hand, if he is in the classroom, he is said to be present. Likewise, when a Christian dies, he is said to have gone to be with the Lord. You heard of this phrase haven’t you?
Well, when a Christian dies there is a separation between body and soul. As the body which has not yet been saved goes to the grave, the soul which was given eternal life goes to be with the Lord. This is a fundamental principle the scriptures teach and very clearly seen not a nebulous as you’ve said.

Some scriptures are doubled which contain words almost alike. They are said to have an idea of conveying the same thought that is, driving home a point.
You have challenged me to produce a verse or passage that seem to convey the same thought as 2 Corinthians 5:8 which you think does not exist. I love it when challenged for it gives me more opportunity to delve into scriptures. So for your eyes only.
Philippians 1:23-24
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better...Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
That is, Paul is saying it is better to depart (die) and to be with Christ, but it is more expedient for him to stay for the sake of the Gospel.


To God Be The Glory

bbyrd009 said:

ya, to God be the glory, when you recognize that Paul clearly was not referencing physical death! lol
so "death" now, is separating you from the love of God, in this model.
i could get even more pointed, but you have to see the fallacy here.
it is not a holistic interpretation, and Paul is always, always, always, talking to you, personally, about your life with Christ, right now, and never, ever, ever, no matter how much someone tries to convince you otherwise, talking about any nebulous future existence, wherein you are currently waiting for Jesus, ok. If you have a verse or passage that seems to read that way, then just put on some eyes, and read it right, or at least keep an open mind whenever you are led to envision some prognostication about some future existence based upon a passage of Paul's, please, because Paul Understood I AM better than anyone, and we are plainly told that Scripture is written so that we may see and not see, and this is exactly what that means. Home for a believer is with the Lord, and the Lord is in heaven, right now, as near as the kingdom is, to you.

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Underline: 2 Cor 5:8 Argument - Let's take a look at what Paul is referring to when he says "clothed" and "unclothed"...

1 Cor 15:50-54 NIV / Isa 25:8 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:2-4 NIV / Job 1:21 NIV Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

"Absent from the body" refers to what happens when we die. "Present with the Lord" means present with Jesus in a resurrection body (at the Second Coming). The reason so many claim that we are immediately in heaven or hell the moment we die is because they fail to understand the 3rd aspect of the passage that Paul presents: the intermediate state of "nakedness" which is also depicted as being "without a body". This refers to lying dead in the grave with no body, no thoughts, no memories, no knowledge, no wisdom, no praising God, no nothing as we "wait" in a total state of insensibility for either the one or the other resurrection.

The key to understanding "absent from the body and present with the Lord" is found in verse 4 when Paul says, "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened, not that we want to be unclothed, but clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed of life." 2 Corinthians 5:4 KJV

Some say Paul wasn't talking about some intermediate state of nakedness in the grave between being clothed with the mortal body and the immortal, resurrection body, but that he was referring to the "spiritual nakedness" of being a lost soul without the robe of Christ's righteousness.

If that were truly the case, then we would understand Paul to be saying, "For we that are in this tabernacle to groan, being burdened, not that we want to (appear in judgment without the robe of Christ's righteousness), but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

Does the above statement make any sense? It makes zero sense.

What Paul is saying is, "For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened, not that we want to be (lying in the grave dead awaiting the resurrection so that we can finally be clothed in immortality and be in the presence of Jesus), but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

In other words, Paul is saying that his and our solution to the problem of the groaning we experience in our trouble filled lives is not the prospect of the rest and respite from that groaning that the grave would provide, but that our desire is to skip that step and be clothed upon with immortality that we may be in the presence of Jesus, though the grave is the unavoidable destination for us where we will have to wait for Jesus to come. It is in this that Paul said that he is confident and willing "to be absent from the body (skip the naked grave part) and present with the Lord."

justaname said:

Home for the believer is with the Lord. The Lord is in heaven. This is why Jesus said heaven in in your midst...
Compare this to John 1:18...
44 And Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. - John 12:44-45
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.
4 And you know the way to where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?"
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him."
8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? - John 14:3-9
Jesus is with the Father. The Father is in heaven...

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This is pretty much all deflection but I'll take a moment and point out vs 3. Why exactly is Jesus coming back for us if we're already with him and if you know Revelation then you know where our destiny lies and it is definitely not in heaven. We Rule with Jesus for a thousand years and then we live on the new Earth in the New Jerusalem for eternity so why would we be in heaven when Jesus never said we would be?

Jun2u said:

I apologize for this late response but people get busy this time of year.
In a classroom situation, a student is said to be absent if that person is not there. On the other hand, if he is in the classroom, he is said to be present. Likewise, when a Christian dies, he is said to have gone to be with the Lord. You heard of this phrase haven’t you?

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Yup, and the fact that that is what everyone says is certainly enough to give me pause. That is crap, and if you aren't with the Lord right now, then you are not saved. It is just that simple. If you are waiting for Jesus, even though you have been told that you do not know where you come from, or where you are going, then you have a big conundrum in your life, and i don't think you are getting the definition of "the Body of Christ" ok.