VictoryinJesus said:
[SIZE=medium]I couldn’t stop thinking about your post last night and felt the urge to respond. I am reluctant because I doubt anything I share will change your mind. The desire to be prosperous and comfortable in this life is a strong pull and once you are on track toward pursing those external things, it is near impossible for someone to persuade you otherwise. I can relate to your conflict. When I first became a follower of Christ I was drawn toward the prosperity movement. I don’t regret going in that direction because I am certain God allowed it, in fact my going in that direction could have only been ordained [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]by[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] God. I was sick and needed healing. I was tired and needed hope. I was weak and needed strength. I was nothing and wanted power. I needed to be significant. I was tempted. But when we anchor into more of this world, there is chance it can all come crashing down around us. What then? Okay, yes Copeland has a sad testimony. We all have one. But what if Copeland or Osteen lost all their wealth tomorrow...what then? When I think of some of my prayers during that season of following after these men and their message …I am ashamed. I was consumed by vanity and came to a point where I was convinced God would give me anything I asked for…if I would only speak it, and claim it, and have faith God would deliver. I know you read my testimony on how I am consumed by fear, so I won’t repeat it. What you don’t know is that suddenly, I was thrust into challenges way outside my comfort zone that called for total trust in God. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]One being a MRI procedure for the doctors to look at my spine and brain. I had already been in the MRI machine once months earlier; the procedure only took twenty minutes that time which I barely made it through. They had to stop the machine every couple of minutes because I would go into a state of panic and squeeze the "take me out now!" button. And here they were, the doctors, saying I would have to repeat the MRI but this time it would take an hour. The weeks leading up to the MRI I labored in fear, telling God I couldn’t do it. That may sound ridiculous, but that machine was Mount Everest for me. All I could think of was that tight space and that hammering sound, and the absence of air. One night I hit my knees and cried out to God that I wanted to be bold and brave- the opposite of fear. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]I cited all the things I wanted to overcome and in doing so I thought of one fear I had never considered…a plane ride. I have never been on a plane, nor have I ever considered a plane ride but there it was …the ultimate fear—being in the air, in a tight space with others, unable to escape. What would I tell the pilot to do when I went into panic mode? Land the plane? :wacko: In the air there would be no exit door for my eyes to locate because the exit door would be useless. That night, after citing all my fears, I prayed to God that I could be the kind of woman that if He told me to get on a plane for a missions trip…I would obey. And this is no lie: the following day a friend I hadn’t spoken to in years called. She told me she was fasting and that God wanted her to tell me to get on a plane and fly out to California. My friend is big in a church out there. I don’t know if you have ever heard of Bethel, or Bill Johnson? It is the same message as Copeland's. In all my life no one had ever asked me to get on a plane so I truly believed this was a command from God. Bethel is known for healings and I was convinced healing waited for me in California. For a week I was consumed with thoughts of actually flying out to California. I checked the time it would take to fly from North Carolina to California. I was pumped. If I could only overcome my fear, God would heal me. It was a test. Ultimately, the fear won out and I did not go and I felt more disappointed in myself than I have ever felt. But the night before the MRI I noticed something strange…the MRI no longer frightened me in comparison to a plane ride. I thought the fear would come back once I was in the machine. The fear never did return. Compared to a plane, the MRI seemed like a kitten. The procedure took two hours instead of one and I hadn’t even realized the time because God had leveled the mountain by placing a scarier one in its place. I would like to add: you asked how to not worry and stress or be anxious. I would assume it is by fearing God, rather than life circumstances that frees a person. No one wants to hear that, but God truly is the only one that deserves to be feared. Maybe...If we fear God, who or what else is there to fear? That may sound insane but sitting here considering what can be gleaned through the diminishing of one fear by replacing it by another grander fear, it would be this: God is that plane and all of Satan's ploys and tools are the MRI; a pale comparison. God deserves reverence and when He fully has it...the rest of the fear will diminish and be leveled and defeated. Some will argue God does not want us to fear Him but let us not forget there is also healthy fear that is good for our marrow and bones. The first thing Jacob said when he saw the ladder reaching toward heaven with the Lord standing at the top was, "how dreadful is this place, this is the house of God and I knew it not." Please, Pray I can have that kind of reverence for the Lord. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]My friend out at Bethel had made an impact. Following her invitation, I consumed every sermon put out by Bethel. I consumed every sermon by Joel Osteen. Every sermon by Kenneth Copeland. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]I fed off their promises for my "best life now". It all sounds good to the brokenhearted, to the afflicted, to the down trodden, weak and hopeless. [/SIZE] That is their prey with their p[SIZE=medium]romises for us to be made bold and prosperous, and successful. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]I had sticky notes with scripture all over my walls; verses all those pastors had provided to be claimed and won by my faith. But something always felt off and one day, it was if God peeled the blinders off and what I saw was a lot of selfishness and worldly lust. Nothing was different from their message and the worlds message. So Josho, I ask you this: why would God enslave someone to the bondage of worldly possessions? These pastors are offering you and promising you what you already wanted BEFORE becoming a Christian. They are promising you what your flesh already wants. Where are their messages and encouragement for people to rush forward and suffer for Christ? They are offering you the world—much like Satan offered Christ the world if He would only prostrate himself before Satan. These pastors use the old Testament because of David and Solomon’s wealth, claiming that God wants us wealthy as well. Is that the truth or are those lessons for us on how worldly desires and riches corrupt a man. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Have you read Ecclesiastes? It is [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]all[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] vanity. [/SIZE] It all leads to needing Christ and Christ alone. [SIZE=medium]I would like to challenge you to do one thing: [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]revisit the verses Copeland gives pertaining to God wants to give you your hearts desire and read the context surrounding those promises and you will see…prosperity pastors have taken those verses out of context and twisted and distorted the scripture to fit their own fleshly desires of world domination. The prosperity gospel even follows the world's model of success rate: only twenty percent ever reach the top and that level of success, the other eighty percent struggle to survive. Does that sound like God's model? My friend at Bethel barely eats and pays her bills, while the leaders in the church thrive. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium][/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Years after that call from my friend I am certain God never intended for me to fly out to California. I have asked myself repeatedly if God would level a fear by placing another fear in its place. Does God use the devil to intervene in our life…absolutely. What Satan means for harm, God means for good. I will never return to the prosperity gospel. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]God could give us all the money in the world, after all, He controls it. It is His to give. God could make us comfortable and set us in a cushiony fine home and give us a jet…BUT what parent that loves a child...spoils the child? Every good father knows adversity, struggle, conflict and doing without builds character and endurance. And these are worldly fathers. Why would a father in heaven see to our every whim? We are talking about a heavenly Father that is LONG suffering. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Please consider the word [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]passion.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] The word passion is only used once in the bible, passion without an s, pertaining to Christ. The other times the word passion is used, pertaining to mankind(us), it is always plural…[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]passions.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Passion pertaining to Christ means “to suffer”. To have passion for something and a willingness to suffer for that passion, to not stop or rest until that passion is realized and on the other side of that suffering waits intense joy. The kind of joy nothing in this world can mimic or take away. The joy set before Christ when He endured the cross. A passion completed to its fullest. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](Acts 1:3) “To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]God wants intimacy. We relate intimacy to the fulfillment of a physical need. But the bible repeatedly shows intimacy as suffering with another, for another's sake and well being. That is why most of us are drawn to help others that have similar sufferings to which we have endured. God is so good and long suffering that He will not lift that suffering for the sake of comfort because He loves us too much. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]God the Father endured the suffering of His son on the Cross, and the Son endured our punishment for sin on the Cross. Out of love for what was done for us, we are called to suffer and carry the burden of others —to have passion to walk the path of Christ that leads toward great joy that has NOTHING to do with money or possessions this world offers. It is the hope set before us. Suffering is throughout the bible. Suffering is what develops a rich relationship with God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](Matthew 10: 24-25) “The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium](1 Peter 4:1) "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"[/SIZE]
(1 Peter 5: 2) "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;" Lucre's meaning in the bible concordance is "for gain".
Josho: We all want passion, don't we? What is your passion? What motivates you to get up every morning and begin anew? Is it truly to be comfortable and prosperous? If passion means "to suffer" for the sake of something or someone, then would it not be safe to assume "to suffer" means to truly experience... a life worth living? A life filled with passion.
Good post, good testimony, thanks for the friendly reply, you sure do have a great understanding of God's word, but does God really want us all to live a miserable life of suffering? We can be joyful through times of suffering, after all right? and that's 1 of the many things that separates us from the world, in times of trouble we can give a joyful praise to the Lord, we don't have to face problems like how the rest of the world faces problems, we got God on our side.
Sure some are called to go into the dangerzones, to help those in nations where they can get killed for being a Christian and while they may not be prospering or living a comfortable life in the flesh, they are prospering and living comfortably in the Spirit, but you know, the Holy Spirit may not lead everyone into these life and death dangerzones, he selects who he wants to do what he wants, he leads different people into different places and different situations, he has a plan for every individual person, for me at the moment he has led me to become a working man, a tradesman, a craftsman, then there is the next step after I finish my apprenticeship, many have prophesied that God is going to use me in places other Christians don't want to go, that many will come to me for prayer and receive healing, my own dad has even prophesied, he doesn't label himself a prophet but he does get accurate words every now and then, he told me "God has got you learning how to restore furniture now and then he is going to use you to restore people's lives." I don't know when this is going to play out, or when this season is going to begin, and i don't know what to expect, it may be a dangerzone it may not be, but the Lord is my shield & I know where I am going and that's the good news. But ya know there's usually a reason why God leads someone down a career path. And if he leads you down a certain career path, I believe he wants you to prosper in what ya do, but there are seasons.
But you know there's a reason in this day and age for the prosperity message, there are so many Christians out there struggling to live with the high cost of living here in Australia, living in debt and listening to a biblical prosperity message can take our mind away from that worry, and remind us that God can supply our needs and he can bless us with abundance. And ya know what are my hearts desires? I would like a farm, not one to make a living off, but 1 i can live off haha, i would like my own livestock,, they cost 10x more than a politician's average salary these days, but anything is possible with God. Ya know i would also love to travel the world. While i sure also would like God to use me during a massive turning around to Christ, where hundreds, or thousands or even more come to Christ, and that would be the most amazing thing, it could be anywhere and i don't think i will mind, I like travelling and seeing different parts of the world anyway, it would be just an amazing thing. And while I'm not a highly educated person, lol i would read the Bible, i wouldn't know the meaning of a word, look it up, and i may still not know the definition explained in the dictionary or I may forget what that word means haha, God has proven he can use anyone, and that's just another 1 of the many things to love about God, you don't have to be the greatest, you don't have to be the smartest, you don't have to be well liked, he can still use you, he will use anyone.
Worry, should we do it? There is a fear of God, yes, if God grabbed anyone like he did to Copeland, your heart would be pounding with fear, but it's for your own good.
But all other kinds of worry, the worry of the flesh, should we do it? What happened to the parts of the Bible where Jesus said "do not worry" and "be anxious for nothing." Why would he say that?
VictoryInJesus i know you do not disagree with those verses where God tells us not to worry, but there sounds like there are others on this forum who disagree with those verses?
So for everyone else who doesn't agree, why should we worry when Jesus told us do not to worry? Why do some of you think it's part of Christian lifestyle to worry like the rest of the world do? I'm sure that's not the way Jesus wants us to live. Where's the explanation in that? C'mon guys, do you think some translator, translated Jesus's words in the Bible wrong? The words of "Do not worry", "Be Anxious for nothing", "Do not Fear."
For now though, i will let others have a talk on this thread, I don't want to be rude, but I feel like i should leave this thread for a while, I find it too time consuming at the moment, and time is a valuable thing, that's better spent in the prayer closet with God. So don't be surprised if I don't get back to this thread and try not to get offended, I was hoping it would be more uplifting and more of a build up one and another in the Body of Christ kinda thing, but it's turning out to be something else.