Addressing KJV Errors

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OzSpen

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By what texts? And is this true because you say it is true? Who determined what was supported by the texts? You, or who? And who determined that these were added by scribes? You, or who?

One thing is sure, things have been removed or doubted by the modern translations. So prepare your evidence for them being removed or doubted.

It is not so because you or others say it is so.

Stranger

Stranger,

Please explain which of the earliest MSS of the Geek NT included Mark 16:9-20? From which MSS do we obtain the text of Mk 16:9-20?

Things have not been removed from modern translations of the earliest Greek MSS but verses have been added to the MSS on which the Textus Receptus (KJV NT) is based. So, KJV added to the Bible.

Oz
 

Stranger

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Stranger,

Please explain which of the earliest MSS of the Geek NT included Mark 16:9-20? From which MSS do we obtain the text of Mk 16:9-20?

Things have not been removed from modern translations of the earliest Greek MSS but verses have been added to the MSS on which the Textus Receptus (KJV NT) is based. So, KJV added to the Bible.

Oz

The earliest MSS we have do not include (Mark 16:9-20). (Mark 16:9-20) will be found in the later manuscripts.

However, Ireneaus and Hippolytus quoted from these verses before these early manuscripts were copied. That shows they were there. And even in the Vatican manuscript the scribe left a long gap or space after (Mark 16:9) indicating he knew of it's existence and was not sure.

Stranger
 

ScottA

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The bottom line, is this: The Word of God is not handed down from generation to generation, subject to the errors of men, but is rather the complete providence of God...always.

We should remember that it was God himself who confused all language at the tower of Babel...for a purpose, that man would not approach God before the times are fulfilled. This present age is no different. We do not come together in thought and agreement, not because we are good or evil only, but because the days are evil, and there is even strife among brothers and sisters, members of the same body. So, just as blindness came upon Israel for our sake, we too are held in confusion until the times are fulfilled. This we suffer, for the sake of coming generations, even our own children.
 

Jun2u

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The bottom line, is this: The Word of God is not handed down from generation to generation, subject to the errors of men, but is rather the complete providence of God...always.

We should remember that it was God himself who confused all language at the tower of Babel...for a purpose, that man would not approach God before the times are fulfilled. This present age is no different. We do not come together in thought and agreement, not because we are good or evil only, but because the days are evil, and there is even strife among brothers and sisters, members of the same body. So, just as blindness came upon Israel for our sake, we too are held in confusion until the times are fulfilled. This we suffer, for the sake of coming generations, even our own children.
 

Jun2u

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I beg to differ. God is a God of Order!. The Tower of Babel cannot be understood literally, it has to be understood spiritually. The Bible is spiritual as well as a historical book. The Gospel message must be seen in almost every page of the Bible, likewise the same, with the story of the Tower of Babel.

1 Corinthians 14:33 reads:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

To God Be The Glory
 

ScottA

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I beg to differ. God is a God of Order!. The Tower of Babel cannot be understood literally, it has to be understood spiritually. The Bible is spiritual as well as a historical book. The Gospel message must be seen in almost every page of the Bible, likewise the same, with the story of the Tower of Babel.

1 Corinthians 14:33 reads:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

To God Be The Glory
Ironically, those two passages are commonly confused. But they are different. God said he DID confuse all language at the tower of Babel, and I believe him, and will not be told by you that it is otherwise. And Paul, anointed by the Holy Spirit spoke correctly, God is NOT the author of confusion - and there is no contradiction. God's confusing all language is rather an ordered plan according to his will. So...we don't get to argue about whether or not God is the author of confusion - that is not the point. The point is that God has and does use many things (confusion, a spirit of slumber, etc.) to promote his will, many things that prolong our not coming to know the whole truth...until the times are fulfilled.
 

kiwimac

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1: If you think heaven is in the sky then you are mistaken. Gen 11: 4 And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."

2: God does not need to "come down" to see what folk are up to: Gen 11:5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.

3: Gen 11: 6 And the LORD said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.
7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Building a tower does not equal ability to do everything! Moreover the "Let US" is a throwback to the henotheistic beginnings of Judaism.

4: Humans have indeed spread over the face of the earth but NOT from the middle East;
Gen 11: 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

It is a metaphor for the arrogance of humankind not an actual story
 

OzSpen

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1: If you think heaven is in the sky then you are mistaken. Gen 11: 4 And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."

kiwimac,

That's not what the Scriptures indicate.

Bible Study Tools article on 'Heaven, Heavens, Heavenlies' provides evidence to refute your perspective:

The Physical Heavens. The ancient distinguished between two domains of the physical heaven perceivable by the senses. The immediate heaven is the surrounding atmosphere in which the "birds of heaven" fly ( 1 Kings 21:24 ). The phenomena of weather occur in the atmospheric heaven, including rain ( Deut 11:11 ; Acts 14:17 ), snow ( Isa 55:10 ), dew ( Dan 4:23 ), frost ( Job 38:29 ), wind ( Psalm 135:7 ), clouds ( Psalm 147:8 ), thunder ( 1 Sam 2:10 ), and hail ( Job 38:22 ). Beyond the atmospheric heaven is the celestial heaven, also called the "expanse" or "firmament" ( Gen 1:8 ). It includes the heavenly lightsstars having "fixed patterns" ( Jer 33:25 ; Nahum 3:16 ), and the sun and moon ( Gen 1:14-16 ). The fixed character of the celestial heaven has evoked figures of speech to describe it. For example, it has windows ( 2 Kings 7:2 ), a foundation ( 2 Sam 22:8 ), a gate ( Gen 28:17 ), ends ( Deut 3:43 ), a remote part ( Neh 1:9 ), and is like a curtain ( Isa 40:22 ).

Oz
 

OzSpen

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The earliest MSS we have do not include (Mark 16:9-20). (Mark 16:9-20) will be found in the later manuscripts.

However, Ireneaus and Hippolytus quoted from these verses before these early manuscripts were copied. That shows they were there. And even in the Vatican manuscript the scribe left a long gap or space after (Mark 16:9) indicating he knew of it's existence and was not sure.

Stranger

Stranger,

Irenaeus lived ca. 120 /140 - 200 /203 according to Encyclopaedia Britannica. St. Hippolytus of Rome, lived ca 170 - 235.

This is over 100 years after the writing of many NT books. What evidence do you have to demonstrate that Irenaeus and Hippolytus quoted from Mk 16:9-20 without having access to written copies of these verses?

I'm interested in your evidence.

Oz
 

Stranger

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Stranger,

Irenaeus lived ca. 120 /140 - 200 /203 according to Encyclopaedia Britannica. St. Hippolytus of Rome, lived ca 170 - 235.

This is over 100 years after the writing of many NT books. What evidence do you have to demonstrate that Irenaeus and Hippolytus quoted from Mk 16:9-20 without having access to written copies of these verses?

I'm interested in your evidence.

Oz

Scofield Study Bible-2003 edition, Oxford--Footnote at end of (Mark 16) " Verses 9-20 are not found in the two most ancient manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus; others have them with partial omissions and variations. But the passage is quoted by Irenaeus and Hippolytus in the second or third century."

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary, Erdmans,1990, p.213 "But these reasons seem to us totally insufficient to counterbalance the evidence in favour of the verses in question. First, they are found in all the unical or earlier Greek MSS. except the two above mentioned...which is admitted to be not more than fifty years later than the two oldest and of scarcely less, if indeed of any less authority; in one or two MSS in which they are not found, a space is left to show that something is wanting....They are found in all the Cursive or later Greek MSS: They are found in all the most ancient Versions: They are quoted by Irenaeus, and so must have been known in the second century: by one father at least in the third century, and by two or three in the fourth, as part of this Gospel."

www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/markend.htm In these remarks there are footnotes given. FN#18-Irenaeus-Against Heresies Bk. 3 ch. 10.6 FN.#20 Tertullian-Against Praxes ch. 2.1 FN.#21 S.P.Tregelles, An Account of the Printed Text

truediscipleship.com/early-evidence-for-mark-169-20 This lists the same with others also.

Stranger
 

ScottA

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1: If you think heaven is in the sky then you are mistaken. Gen 11: 4 And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth."

2: God does not need to "come down" to see what folk are up to: Gen 11:5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.

3: Gen 11: 6 And the LORD said, "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.
7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Building a tower does not equal ability to do everything! Moreover the "Let US" is a throwback to the henotheistic beginnings of Judaism.

4: Humans have indeed spread over the face of the earth but NOT from the middle East;
Gen 11: 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.

It is a metaphor for the arrogance of humankind not an actual story
That's not proof. By the same logic, that would make "all the earth" a metaphor too... (which is another discussion)

Sorry, but you are not the authority over these matters.

Each of those points can be explained, such as: It is not I who thinks that heaven is in the shy, but them, and in that time they likely did believe it were true. But I have no interest in defending the word of God against someone who is willing to tare it apart against simple logic.

But that is not the point anyway. The point is, God (not men) has providence over his word down through the ages. KJV or no.
 

Jun2u

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Ironically, those two passages are commonly confused. But they are different. God said he DID confuse all language at the tower of Babel, and I believe him, and will not be told by you that it is otherwise. And Paul, anointed by the Holy Spirit spoke correctly, God is NOT the author of confusion - and there is no contradiction. God's confusing all language is rather an ordered plan according to his will. So...we don't get to argue about whether or not God is the author of confusion - that is not the point. The point is that God has and does use many things (confusion, a spirit of slumber, etc.) to promote his will, many things that prolong our not coming to know the whole truth...until the times are fulfilled.
 

Jun2u

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For what it’s worth, the story of the Tower of Babel did happen historically. The result can be seen even today as we see the different languages spoken all over the world.

I am not disputing that God did not confuse the language of that day rather the question that needs to be answered is, “Why did God confuse the language into many different languages and what was His reason?” As I’ve already alluded to that the answer cannot be found by reading the passage literally but spiritually (1 Co 2:14).

There is an ominous principle hidden in the story of the Tower of Babel...which is salvation. I am not telling you what to believe. In fact, it was you who brought up the story of the Tower of Babel The character of a true believer is to be able to teach and also be able to be taught.

You have not so much as asked what is the significance of understanding spiritually the meaning of the story Tower of Babel (Ge 11:3-9). So I must assume you don’t have a clue.

To God Be The Glory
 

ScottA

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For what it’s worth, the story of the Tower of Babel did happen historically. The result can be seen even today as we see the different languages spoken all over the world.

I am not disputing that God did not confuse the language of that day rather the question that needs to be answered is, “Why did God confuse the language into many different languages and what was His reason?” As I’ve already alluded to that the answer cannot be found by reading the passage literally but spiritually (1 Co 2:14).

There is an ominous principle hidden in the story of the Tower of Babel...which is salvation. I am not telling you what to believe. In fact, it was you who brought up the story of the Tower of Babel The character of a true believer is to be able to teach and also be able to be taught.

You have not so much as asked what is the significance of understanding spiritually the meaning of the story Tower of Babel (Ge 11:3-9). So I must assume you don’t have a clue.

To God Be The Glory
All scripture is spiritual, but that was not the point of bringing it up. I only meant to explain the would-be errors of the KJ Bible. But do not hold back. If you have something to offer, then offer. No need to be cagey or critical.
 

OzSpen

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Scofield Study Bible-2003 edition, Oxford--Footnote at end of (Mark 16) " Verses 9-20 are not found in the two most ancient manuscripts, the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus; others have them with partial omissions and variations. But the passage is quoted by Irenaeus and Hippolytus in the second or third century."

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary, Erdmans,1990, p.213 "But these reasons seem to us totally insufficient to counterbalance the evidence in favour of the verses in question. First, they are found in all the unical or earlier Greek MSS. except the two above mentioned...which is admitted to be not more than fifty years later than the two oldest and of scarcely less, if indeed of any less authority; in one or two MSS in which they are not found, a space is left to show that something is wanting....They are found in all the Cursive or later Greek MSS: They are found in all the most ancient Versions: They are quoted by Irenaeus, and so must have been known in the second century: by one father at least in the third century, and by two or three in the fourth, as part of this Gospel."

www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/markend.htm In these remarks there are footnotes given. FN#18-Irenaeus-Against Heresies Bk. 3 ch. 10.6 FN.#20 Tertullian-Against Praxes ch. 2.1 FN.#21 S.P.Tregelles, An Account of the Printed Text

truediscipleship.com/early-evidence-for-mark-169-20 This lists the same with others also.

Stranger

Stranger,

I appreciate that these are some of the issues and views of commentators.

Let’s examine some of the matters relating to whether Mark 16:9-20 should in the Bible or have been added.

I could go into further detail as to why I reject vv. 9-20 as part of the New Testament. However, I consider that Kelly Iverson has summarised the material extremely well and to my exegetical and textual satisfaction in the article, “Irony in the end: A textual and literary analysis of Mark 16:8“. Iverson presents this material in footnote 6, based on the internal evidence that includes this examination of the long ending of Mark 16 (I have transliterated the Greek characters in the article to make it more accessible for the general reader):

The longer ending (vv 9-20) is clearly the most attested reading. It is validated by almost all of the extant Greek manuscripts, a significant number of minuscules, numerous versions, and scores of church Fathers. Geographically it is represented by the Byzantine, Alexandrian, and Western text types. However, one should be careful not to reduce textual criticism into an exercise of manuscript counting. Though the longer ending is widely attested, the vast bulk of manuscripts are from the generally inferior, Byzantine text type dating from the 8th to the 13th centuries (except Codex A which is a 5th century document). Due to the solidarity of the Byzantine text type we may assume that this represents at least a fourth century reading (Bruce M. Metzger, The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration, 3rd ed. [New York: Oxford University, 1992], 293).

The abrupt ending (1) is found in the two oldest Greek manuscripts. These Alexandrian uncials a B, both 4th century manuscripts, are supported by the Sinaitic Syriac manuscripts, approximately one hundred Armenian texts and two Georgian manuscripts from the 9th and 10th centuries, and several church Fathers including Clement of Alexandria and Origen. That this reading was more prominent is supported by Eusebius and Jerome who claimed that vv 9-20 were absent from almost all known manuscripts (ibid., 226). It is also significant that Codex Bobiensis (k) omits the longer ending as this is deemed the “most important witness to the Old African Latin” Bible (ibid., 73). The genealogical solidarity of the two primary Alexandrian witnesses suggest that this reading can be dated to the 2nd century (Metzger, Text of the New Testament, 215-216).

To say the least, the evidence is conflicting. One should be careful not to make a firm decision one way or the other regarding Mark’s ending based on the external data alone. Though the majority of New Testament scholars believe that vv 9-20 are not original, virtually none come to this conclusion based purely on the external evidence. Even Farmer must confess that, “while a study of the external evidence is rewarding in itself and can be very illuminating in many ways . . . it does not produce the evidential grounds for a definitive solution to the problem. A study of the history of the text, by itself, has not proven sufficient, since the evidence is divided” (Farmer, Last Twelve Verses of Mark, 74).

Most text-critics appeal to the internal evidence in order to demonstrate that vv 9-20 are non-Marcan. One is immediately struck with the awkward transition between vv 8 and 9. In v 8, the subject, “they” referring to Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome (16:1) is implicit within the third, plural verb, ephobounto. But in v 9 the subject changes to “He” (from the third, singular verb ephan?). The transition is striking because the subject is unexpressed. Furthermore, in v 9 Mary Magdalene is introduced as though she were a new character even though her presence has already been established in the immediate context (15:47; 16:1) while Mary the mother of James and Salome disappear from the entire narrative. This awkward transition coupled with numerous words and phrases that are foreign to Mark, suggest the decidedly inauthentic nature of this ending.

Several examples should prove the point. In 16:9 we find the only occurrence of the verb phainw in the New Testament with respect to the resurrection (though the same verb is used in Luke 9:8 to describe Elijah’s re-appearance). Equally as unusual is the construction par hes ekbeblekei , which is a grammatical hapax. In v 10, the verb poreuvomai which is found 29 times in Matthew and 51 times in Luke is not found in Mark 1:1-16:8, but repeatedly in the longer ending (vv 10, 12, 15). In v 11, The verb theaomai which occurs in Matthew (6:1; 11:7; 22:11; 23:5) and Luke (7:24; 23:55) finds no parallel in Mark except for its multiple occurrence in the longer ending (16:11, 14). In v 12, the expression meta tauta which occurs frequently in Luke (1:24; 5:27; 10:1; 12:4; 17:8; 18:4) and John (2:12; 3:22; 5:1, 14; 6:1; 7:1; 11:7, 11; 13:7; 19:28, 38; 21:1) has no precedence in Mark. phanerow which neither Matthew or Luke use to describe resurrection appearances is found in vv 12 and 14 (J. K. Elliott, “The Text and Language of the endings of Mark’s Gospel,” TZ 27 [1971]: 258). The phrase heteros morph? is also unique to Marcan vocabulary. Neither heteros nor morph? occur elsewhere in Mark and morph? only appears in Paul’s description of the kenosis (Phil 2:6, 7). In v 14, husteros, although used by the other evangelists, is a decidedly non-Marcan term having no precedence in 1:1-16:8. Mark seems to prefer eschatos over husteros as evidenced by several parallel passages in which Mark opts for the former over the later term found in Matthew (cf. Matt 21:37Mark 12:6; Matt 22:27Mark 12:22). In v 18, aside from other lexical and syntactical phenomenon one is struck by the unusual exegetical hapax. No other text in Scripture provides a promise for the handling of snakes and imbibing deadly poison without adverse repercussions. In v 19, though Mark sparingly uses the conjunction ?u, the phrase men ou is not found in 1:1-16:8. The longer ending concludes in v 20 with a litany of non-Marcan vocabulary: sunergeww is not found in Mark or the Gospels and appears to be a Pauline term (Rom 8:28; 1 Cor 16:16; 2 Cor 6:1) but it is never used with Jesus as the subject, and bebaiow along with epakolouthew are also foreign to the Synoptic Gospels.

As is somewhat evident, the internal evidence raises significant problems with Mark 16:9-20. The awkward transition between vv 8 and 9 and the non-Marcan vocabulary has led the vast majority of New Testament scholars to conclude that the longer ending is inauthentic. In fact, even Farmer (Last Twelve Verses of Mark, 103), the leading proponent for the authenticity of the last twelve verses, must confess that some of the evidence warrants this conclusion (taken from my article, Does Mark 16:9-20 belong in Scripture?)

Iverson’s article provides an overall analysis of some of the major issues in the short vs. long ending of Mark 16. I highly recommend it.

Oz
 

Stranger

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OzSpen

You say "whether Mark 16:9-20 should be in the Bible or have been added" . You should have said, 'or have been removed'. Or you could have just said, 'whether Mark 16:9-20 should be in the Bible'. All are bias and come to the discussion already knowing which side they believe.

Just as Iverson says it is not always about which text is supported numerically. But, neither is it always about which is the oldest. But, in reality, the oldest texts are what modern day 'scholarship' is basing their views and translations on. They use the Westcott/Hort text which is heavily based on the Alexandrian text, which is the minority text, which involves the two manuscripts, Alexandrian and Sinaiticus, which do not support (Mark 16:9-20). And this is the biggest difference. The KJV is based on the majority texts. Most every modern translation is based on the minority text.

Liberal scholars use the Greek or Hebrew, and word games to try and convince us that certain Biblical books are not by the authors ascribed to them. And they use the same to prove that certain books could not be written at the date normally given. So, just because Iverson does the same, is not enough to convince me. Remember, the KJ translators were not idiots. They knew the Greek and Hebrew. And they had more checks and balances over their translation than any other made.

Iverson's claim that there is an awkward transition between verses (8) and (9), seems odd. It is clear that (16:1-8) is a historical record of when they first came to the empty tomb. Then in (9-14) Mark picks up again with Mary Magdalene as the first Christ appeared to , and then lists the others He appears to, finishing with the 11 disciples. I see nothing awkward at all in this.

I believe the real reason in determining whether (Mark 16:9-20) should be in the Bible, is based on which text you believe the Bible should be based on. Either the "Textus Receptus" , also called the majority text, or the Westcott/Hort text, which is based on the Alexandrian or minority text.

Stranger
 
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ScottA

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The big questionb, which part is scripture and which part is mens accounts and own thoughts.???
I would not deny man's involvement...but it doesn't matter. God is still the only one with providence over his word, that it should not return void.