Peter Was Never The Rock

eldios · Jun 7, 2017

Marymog said:
Got it. Your not Lutheran. Maybe you should remove that from your profile so you aren't misleading members of this forum.

My body can be called all kinds of meaningless names but Lutheran works just as good as any of them.

You were chosen as God's last servant? What does that mean?

The millennium reign of Christ is the period of time that God uses servants to write and speak for Him the words from information called Christ. This information revealed how we were created, what the beast is that you can read about in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation and what will happen on the day of the Lord to end this temporary generation. We also learn how we're going to experience life in the next generation called the new heaven and earth. There were two different witnesses during this millennium reign of Christ with the first one starting 2,000 years ago that lasted for about 300 years. During that time, many servants were used to testify to the knowledge called Christ to learn about these things I mentioned except that computer technology was not built yet so they could not understand the invisible realm in the details necessary to know what the Tree of Life ( the Truth ) is and how it was created.

There was a 1700 year break between the first witness of the knowledge of Christ and the second witness that just ended last December of 2016. This break was necessary for the beast to teach human beings how to build the computer technology, simulation programs and AI and voice systems that companies like Google, IBM, Apple and Microsoft have built with their human hands. These visible images were necessary for me to use and observe to help me understand exactly how we were created.

You know what the beast is? Are you able to tell others so that we may know and watch out for it?
Where do all religions and their false gods come from?

Read this writing from the mind of Christ; What is the Beast and the Antichrist?

Curious Mary

It's possible you're a chosen believer so we will find out very soon after you read the words from Christ in the writing I provided you a link to.

ScottA · Jun 7, 2017

kepha31 said:
Still can't find any verses on Peter's primacy?

Nowhere in the Bible is the Bible used against the Church. You do it because it is a man made Protestant tradition.

There is nothing in any of your quotes that contradict the definition of the papacy. There are no man made doctrines in the CC. They all flow from the deposit of faith.

Oh...don't get me wrong.

I am not trying to convince you of anything more than the complete word from Christ on the matter. If you and the Catholic church want to select just the message as it pertains to Peter - you have your calling. But there is more, infinitely more...regarding the spirit of God.

You have said plenty about Peter and the Papacy. But are you able to put that portion aside to consider the greater part? Because you seem to be blinded to it by your own choice of what is most important. What about the rest of the body...do you not have love for the whole body?

PS, I am not affiliated with any denominational doctrines. Please stop blaming me for your disdain for all things Protestant.

epostle1 · Jun 7, 2017

ScottA said:
Oh...don't get me wrong.

I am not trying to convince you of anything more than the complete word from Christ on the matter. If you and the Catholic church want to select just the message as it pertains to Peter - you have your calling. But there is more, infinitely more...regarding the spirit of God.

"...If you and the Catholic church want to select just the message as it pertains to Peter??? No, the CC teaches the whole OT/NT message, omitting nothing. The discussion is about Peter.

You have said plenty about Peter and the Papacy. But are you able to put that portion aside to consider the greater part? Because you seem to be blinded to it by your own choice of what is most important. What about the rest of the body...do you not have love for the whole body?

Of course, but the discussion is about Peter. If you are going to challenge Catholic doctrines you need to be informed from reliable sources what the Church says about herself, not from Bible hate cults who misrepresent, deceive and lie, and there are millions of those. Anti-Catholic liars have all been refuted, it's a matter of knowing where to look.

PS, I am not affiliated with any denominational doctrines. Please stop blaming me for your disdain for all things Protestant.

I don't disdain all things Protestant, that's contrary to Catholic teaching, but this statement is Protestantism to the core.
If you want to raise the white flag and change the subject to the body of Christ or the spirit of God, fine by me.

ScottA · Jun 7, 2017

kepha31 said:
"...If you and the Catholic church want to select just the message as it pertains to Peter??? No, the CC teaches the whole OT/NT message, omitting nothing. The discussion is about Peter.
Of course, but the discussion is about Peter. If you are going to challenge Catholic doctrines you need to be informed from reliable sources what the Church says about herself, not from Bible hate cults who misrepresent, deceive and lie, and there are millions of those. Anti-Catholic liars have all been refuted, it's a matter of knowing where to look.

I don't disdain all things Protestant, that's contrary to Catholic teaching, but this statement is Protestantism to the core.
If you want to raise the white flag and change the subject to the body of Christ or the spirit of God, fine by me.

No...the discussion is about Peter not being the rock. But I am not saying he is not...I am saying that is only the smaller part of what Jesus eluded to. And that is the problem - you are making it ALL about Peter.

Again with the anti-catholic hate group accusations. Stop it! I told you - I have no such influence or affiliation. I am speaking of the scripture and the Holy Spirit, only. If you don't disdain all things Protestant, then leave them out of it and quit stereotyping - this is just me and you talking about the scriptures.

epostle1 · Jun 7, 2017

ScottA said:
No...the discussion is about Peter not being the rock. But I am not saying he is not...I am saying that is only the smaller part of what Jesus eluded to. And that is the problem - you are making it ALL about Peter.

The whole point of the discussion is ALL about Peter; you have to go in 20 different directions because you lost this debate. In order to assert that Peter is not the rock, you have to deny his very name given to him by Jesus, Peter's name throughout the NT and numerous other biblical evidences, all the early Church Fathers and all of Christian history, and of course the numerous Protestant scholars that agree Peter is the rock, and I have more in my list. You haven't presented any refutations or rebuttals to my posts, because you have no case. Just private opinions and weird interpretations. The claim that Peter is not the rock is not just offensive, it's stupid. Just like the thread title is stupid. It's based on blind prejudice, not facts.

Again with the anti-catholic hate group accusations. Stop it! I told you - I have no such influence or affiliation. I am speaking of the scripture and the Holy Spirit, only. If you don't disdain all things Protestant, then leave them out of it and quit stereotyping - this is just me and you talking about the scriptures.

I wasn't talking about YOU, I was warning you about using Bible hate cults as resources in contrast to reliable ones.

If you want to discuss scripture you can start with post #79 and 130.
From now on I'll answer you with links because this discussion is a waste of time. You have the last word but I say your arguments have been demolished....repeatedly.

mjrhealth · Jun 8, 2017

kepha31 said:
The whole point of the discussion is ALL about Peter; you have to go in 20 different directions because you lost this debate. In order to assert that Peter is not the rock, you have to deny his very name given to him by Jesus,

Peter was never teh rock, Jesus was explaining "revelation" to Him, something that religion does not have, but fore you it has to be so you can hold on to a false religio, when will you stop persecuting Jesus.You forever play teh "racist" card with your "catholich bashing" to shut every one up, yet over 2000 years later, your church still persecutes teh Lord and His church and it doesnt faze you one little bit.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Again denying Jesus as it is al you can do to hold onto your religion.

epostle1 · Jun 8, 2017

Strong's Concordance 4074
Petros: "a stone" or "a boulder," Peter, one of the twelve apostles
Original Word: Πέτρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Petros
Phonetic Spelling: (pet'-ros)
Short Definition: Peter
Definition: Peter, a Greek name meaning rock.
Strong's Greek: 4074. Πέτρος (Petros) -- "a stone" or "a boulder," Peter, one of the twelve apostles

Strong's Concordance 2786
Képhas: "a rock," Cephas, a name given to the apostle Peter
Original Word: Κηφᾶς, ᾶ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Képhas
Phonetic Spelling: (kay-fas')
Short Definition: Cephas
Definition: Cephas (Aramaic for rock), the new name given to Simon Peter, the apostle.
http://biblehub.com/greek/2786.htmz

"Peter was never teh rock" is as ridiculous as saying Paul was not an Apostle. The biblical evidence for Peter's primacy is overwhelming. see post #130 here

Bible: Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

Stupid interpretation: “And I tell you, you are not Peter, and on me I will build my church; and the powers of death shall prevail against it sometime before 1517.”

JesusIsFaithful · Jun 8, 2017

Marymog said:
Why the KJV? Why not other versions?

I get it now. You don't mean Jesus is speaking to you directly like in a dream or a voice in your head. You mean He is helping you interpret scripture because you asked him to help?

Jesus helps me, Marymog, interpret scripture also. He told me that some things in scripture are hard to understand. He also told me that some ignorant and unstable men will distort Scriptures to their own destruction and to watch out for them.

I wonder. Are you one of those men? Or am I deceiving myself and I am actually one of those men?

Curious Mary!!

When the Catholic catechism says you are not saved yet, but Jesus said when you believe in Him, you are saved; hence not condemned, whom are you listening to then?

I do not want you to hate the Catholics; so once you see the truth, ask Jesus for help to forgive them for they know not what they do, but lean on Him to withdraw since you are not to have fellowship with works of darkness that deny Him, but rather reprove them... with His help. More than likely, they will not listen and so withdrawing is the only option.

ScottA · Jun 8, 2017

kepha31 said:
The whole point of the discussion is ALL about Peter; you have to go in 20 different directions because you lost this debate. In order to assert that Peter is not the rock, you have to deny his very name given to him by Jesus, Peter's name throughout the NT and numerous other biblical evidences, all the early Church Fathers and all of Christian history, and of course the numerous Protestant scholars that agree Peter is the rock, and I have more in my list. You haven't presented any refutations or rebuttals to my posts, because you have no case. Just private opinions and weird interpretations. The claim that Peter is not the rock is not just offensive, it's stupid. Just like the thread title is stupid. It's based on blind prejudice, not facts.

Correction: I went in an infinite number of directions. And in the face of the Infinite, you still single out Peter as being the greater proclamation of Christ. While I did not deny that Jesus blessed Peter and established him in an earthly commission, you seem all too willing to belittle the greater plan of God to pour out his spirit on all flesh.

The nature of this discussion is to take the focus off Peter, but you have failed to do so. So be it.

ScottA · Jun 8, 2017

kepha31 said:
"Peter was never teh rock" is as ridiculous as saying Paul was not an Apostle. The biblical evidence for Peter's primacy is overwhelming. see post #130 here

Bible: Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

Stupid interpretation: “And I tell you, you are not Peter, and on me I will build my church; and the powers of death shall prevail against it sometime before 1517.”

You are off topic... The whole point is not what Peter was, but what he never was.

Do you even know what Peter never was?

epostle1 · Jun 8, 2017

ScottA said:
Correction: I went in an infinite number of directions. And in the face of the Infinite, you still single out Peter as being the greater proclamation of Christ. While I did not deny that Jesus blessed Peter and established him in an earthly commission, you seem all too willing to belittle the greater plan of God to pour out his spirit on all flesh.

The nature of this discussion is to take the focus off Peter, but you have failed to do so. So be it.

If you want to discuss the greater plan of God to pour out his spirit on all flesh, open a thread. The stupid thread title for this discussion is "Peter is not the rock". That lunacy has been debunked several times over. That is the focus of this discussion, and most of THIS thread. I am not not the one who is off topic. Read the stupid thread title.

Marymog · Jun 8, 2017

JesusIsFaithful said:
When the Catholic catechism says you are not saved yet, but Jesus said when you believe in Him, you are saved; hence not condemned, whom are you listening to then?

I do not want you to hate the Catholics; so once you see the truth, ask Jesus for help to forgive them for they know not what they do, but lean on Him to withdraw since you are not to have fellowship with works of darkness that deny Him, but rather reprove them... with His help. More than likely, they will not listen and so withdrawing is the only option.

OK....Ummmm.....You didn't even answer the questions in my thread. I don't hate Catholics...I don't hate anyone. Where did that come from? Lets try this again:

Why the KJV? Why not other versions?

I get it now. You don't mean Jesus is speaking to you directly like in a dream or a voice in your head. You mean He is helping you interpret scripture because you asked him to help?

Jesus helps me, Marymog, interpret scripture also. He told me that some things in scripture are hard to understand. He also told me that some ignorant and unstable men will distort Scriptures to their own destruction and to watch out for them.

I wonder. Are you one of those men? Or am I deceiving myself and I am actually one of those men?

Mary!!

Marymog · Jun 8, 2017

ScottA said:
No...the discussion is about Peter not being the rock. But I am not saying he is not...I am saying that is only the smaller part of what Jesus eluded to. And that is the problem - you are making it ALL about Peter.

Again with the anti-catholic hate group accusations. Stop it! I told you - I have no such influence or affiliation. I am speaking of the scripture and the Holy Spirit, only. If you don't disdain all things Protestant, then leave them out of it and quit stereotyping - this is just me and you talking about the scriptures.

Peter not being The Rock?

That belief/preaching/teaching/interpretation or twisting of scripture started about 500 years ago. I'm gonna stick with the Apostolic and Church Fathers interpretation on this one. Peter was The Rock, just like Jesus said.....And I believe Jesus.

My two cents worth....Mary

JesusIsFaithful · Jun 8, 2017

Marymog said:
OK....Ummmm.....You didn't even answer the questions in my thread. I don't hate Catholics...I don't hate anyone. Where did that come from? Lets try this again:

Why the KJV? Why not other versions?

Go to this link to this thread in this forum on why.

Using Only the KJV in Defending the Faith in Jesus Christ

I get it now. You don't mean Jesus is speaking to you directly like in a dream or a voice in your head. You mean He is helping you interpret scripture because you asked him to help?

He can help me understand His written word in the KJV to discern good & evil by His words.

Jesus helps me, Marymog, interpret scripture also. He told me that some things in scripture are hard to understand. He also told me that some ignorant and unstable men will distort Scriptures to their own destruction and to watch out for them.

That can be found in scripture.

I wonder. Are you one of those men? Or am I deceiving myself and I am actually one of those men?

Mary!!

Ask Jesus.

Am I pointing you ONLY to Him for all things? Is the RCC pointing to others instead of Him for all things? You decide who Jesus is warning about.

epostle1 · Jun 8, 2017

ScottA said:
You are off topic... The whole point is not what Peter was, but what he never was.

Do you even know what Peter never was?

Peter was never founder of the Church, never Lord of the Church; does that answer your question?

The Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically based, and is derived from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles. Like all Christian doctrines, it has undergone development through the centuries, but it hasn’t departed from the essential components already existing in the leadership and prerogatives of St. Peter. These were given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ, acknowledged by his contemporaries, and accepted by the early Church. The biblical Petrine data is quite strong and convincing, by virtue of its cumulative weight, especially for those who are not hostile to the notion of the papacy from the outset. This is especially made clear with the assistance of biblical commentaries. The evidence of Holy Scripture (RSV) follows:

1. Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church; and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

The rock (Greek, petra) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the foundation, but as the architect who “builds.” The Church is built, not on confessions, but on confessors – living men (see, e.g., 1 Peter 2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority of all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior of the family of God (i.e., the seed of the doctrine of the papacy). Moreover, Rock embodies a metaphor applied to him by Christ in a sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah (1 Peter 2:4-8; cf. Matthew 21:42). Without a solid foundation a house falls. St. Peter is the foundation, but not founder of the Church, administrator, but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd (John 10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Ephesians 4:11).
50 New Testament Proofs for Peter's Primacy & the Papacy

A list of Protestant biblical scholars and commentators is on post #79, and they all disagree with you. And a list of over 70 verses indicating Peter's primacy is on post #130. You're blinded by prejudice and irrational hostility. Time you moved on.

epostle1 · Jun 8, 2017

2. Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .”

The “power of the keys” has to do with ecclesiastical discipline and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of the faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (cf. Is 9:6; Job 12:14; Rev 3:7). From this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution, baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances, and legislative powers. In the Old Testament a steward, or prime minister is a man who is “over a house” (Genesis 41:40; Genesis 43:19; Genesis 44:4; 1 Kings 4:6; 1 Kings 16:9; 1 Kings 18:3; 2 Kings 10:5; 2 Kings 15:5; 2 Kings 18:18; Isaiah 22:15, Isaiah 22:20-21).
50 New Testament Proofs for Peter's Primacy & the Papacy

ScottA · Jun 8, 2017

kepha31 said:
If you want to discuss the greater plan of God to pour out his spirit on all flesh, open a thread. The stupid thread title for this discussion is "Peter is not the rock". That lunacy has been debunked several times over. That is the focus of this discussion, and most of THIS thread. I am not not the one who is off topic. Read the stupid thread title.

If the title of the tread were actually "stupid" as you say, there would be no reason for debate. For that matter, there would be no reason for protest or Protestants. But you, nor the Catholic church, can just read the facts of the scriptures away...and call it stupid. It doesn't change reality.

Oh...and I did start a new thread.

ScottA · Jun 8, 2017

Marymog said:
Peter not being The Rock?

That belief/preaching/teaching/interpretation or twisting of scripture started about 500 years ago. I'm gonna stick with the Apostolic and Church Fathers interpretation on this one. Peter was The Rock, just like Jesus said.....And I believe Jesus.

My two cents worth....Mary

I'm not that old. It started for me the first time I read the scriptures about 30 years ago.

Jesus DID say Peter was the rock. But that is not all he said.

Perhaps this will help: Put Peter in one hand and the spirit of the Father in the other, and you decide what part of what Jesus said is most important. (Peter is cool...but it should be no contest. ... Hey-- that's a good name for a new religion: The "Contestants!")

epostle1 · Jun 8, 2017

ScottA said:
If the title of the tread were actually "stupid" as you say, there would be no reason for debate. For that matter, there would be no reason for protest or Protestants. But you, nor the Catholic church, can just read the facts of the scriptures away...and call it stupid. It doesn't change reality.

Oh...and I did start a new thread.

Good. Where did I say the scriptures were stupid? I didn't. I said the thread title is stupid. I'll rephrase: Claiming that Peter is not the ROCK is scriptural blindness.

Jesus DID say Peter was the rock. But that is not all he said.

He immediately followed up with Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .” An explanation is above in post #155 that you can't seem to face. Jesus gave Peter authority which is what you have issues with. You want to draw a false dichotomy between God's revelation to Peter and Jesus' 3 fold blessing. Did you invent that on your own?

ScottA · Jun 9, 2017

kepha31 said:
Good. Where did I say the scriptures were stupid? I didn't. I said the thread title is stupid. I'll rephrase: Claiming that Peter is not the ROCK is scriptural blindness.

He immediately followed up with Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . .” An explanation is above in post #155 that you can't seem to face. Jesus gave Peter authority which is what you have issues with. You want to draw a false dichotomy between God's revelation to Peter and Jesus' 3 fold blessing. Did you invent that on your own?

Still no mention of the Father regarding the building of the church (just Peter). Keep digging that hole.

epostle1 · Jun 9, 2017

ScottA said:
Still no mention of the Father regarding the building of the church (just Peter). Keep digging that hole.

Nowhere have I said that Peter builds anything. I've quoted Matthew 16:18 dozens of times in this thread. The Father revealed to Peter but He doesn't build the Church, Jesus does that.
Matthew 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

get it?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

4. Peter’s name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Mt 10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him the “first” (10:2). Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.

5. Peter is almost without exception named first whenever he appears with anyone else. In one (only?) example to the contrary, Galatians 2:9, where he (“Cephas”) is listed after James and before John, he is clearly preeminent in the entire context (e.g., Galatians 1:18-19; Galatians 2:7-8).

6. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, Rock, solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42; Mt 16:18).
50 New Testament Proofs for Peter's Primacy & the Papacy

quote-i-believe-in-god-not-in-a-catholic-god-there-is-no-catholic-god-there-is-god-and-i-believe-in-pope-francis-388028.jpg

Peter Was Never The Rock

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