Is there a recipe for discipleship?

perrero said:

Thx for sharing. I for one do not discount people's different experiences in life. We are all different and unique to God and therefore He knows the better way of how to reach everyone of us individually. I have had my own experiences, God talking to me as if standing beside or behind me, a vision He gave me back in 2004, which is the subject of a book I wrote, and other lesser things. Experiences are valuable as they stamp a strong sense of realness on our lives and specifically on our relationship with Him.

Click to expand...

Okay.

However, I will caution you in that whatever conclusion we draw or learn from our experiences, they must align with the truth of the word. You mentioned an experience with David Wilkerson that in conclusion reinforce to you that the phenomenon of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was wrong.

Click to expand...

No. That is not what I had shared, I read a newsletter from David Wilkerson that was tucked in my KJV Bible about the role of the Holy Spirit and the Lord used that article that had verses about the role of the Holy Spirit of what He will do and not do, to help me discern that what was happening in my aunt's community church was not of Him at all.

So we see here a conclusion that you have drawn based not on God's Word but on something an individual has said. Now I know that D. Wilkerson is not just anybody but still isn't perfect and he could have said something the was incorrect and now you have conclude something based on his incorrectness. Or D.W. could have been correct in what he said but you, in light of preconceived theology, interpreted it to mean one thing when it actually meant something else. You know what I mean, What one says is not always what one means and what one understand is not always what was conveyed.

Click to expand...

It was the scripture about the role of the Holy Spirit; He dwells in us ( John 14:16-17 ) to testify of the Son ( John 15:26 ) to glorify the Son ( John 16:14 ) thru us ( John 15:27 )

The apostle John warned not to believe every spirit but test them; 1 John 4:2 is 2 Corinthians 13:5 in meaning as 1 John 4:3 proves that the spirit of the antichrist is outside of us and that is where it dwells in coming and goings with signs and lying wonders, even bringing a supernatural tongue as found in the world that is just vain & profane babbling. ( 1 John 4:5-6 )

That is the test of the spirit in knowing the real indwelling Holy Spirit from the spirit of the antichrist which is in the world. 1 John 4:4 as greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.

You have hence concluded that the Baptism of the H.G. is wrong or unbiblical, when the Bible is full of this experience. If you do not believe in this Baptism you might as well tear out the pages from 1Cor. 12-14 from your Bible. Take out Acts 2, 8,9,10, 19 and at that point you might as well throw out the whole book since that many chapters are wrong.

Click to expand...

What was happening in my aunt's church is not about the baptism of the Holy Ghost at our salvation. This was about receiving another spirit that brought sensational signs in the flesh separate from salvation. They just thought it was the Holy Ghost, but it was not. 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 warned against those that preach receiving another Jesus or another spirit; hence another gospel. They were believing every spirit that came over them was being of God, and they were not even doing the apostle's John's test to know that He is in us and that which is coming over them is not the Holy Spirit.

The Bible clearly speak of many Baptisms, but the main Three, that are true witnesses, are Baptism in water [note water] (which the outward testimony and evidence of a believers conversion to Christ, Mark 16:16 ), The Baptism into the Body of Christ at the very point of belief and conversion [note blood] (This is the one Baptism that counts, the only one that leads to Salvation,1 Cor. 12:13-14, it is the Baptism that Paul is referring to in Ephesians 4:4-6),

Click to expand...

There is no mentioned of blood. To be born again of the Spirit is salvation John 3rd chapter is all about that. Romans 8:9 says if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are none of His. There is only one hope of our calling that ties in with one baptism of the One Spirit ( Ephesians 4:4-6 ) and it is received as testified as at our salvation ( Ephesians 1:11-15 )

finally the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, performed by Jesus as He takes the believer and immerses him in the Spirit [note Spirit]
These are the three witnesses I alluded to above. (1 John 5:7-8) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
(Matt. 3:11),and is available following conversion.
So you to say that there is only one Baptism is a gross misunderstanding of scripture no matter what experience you've had. So as I was saying, we must not use our experiences to guide our theology. We must always apply our beliefs against the Word to see if they hold true.

Click to expand...

There is only one baptism with the Holy Spirit and that only happens at our salvation; otherwise, believers wind up preaching another gospel.

Let me ask you this; how is it that after they receive the Holy Spirit, these believers that say it is separate from salvation, they are receiving the Holy Spirit again and again and again? How many baptism is that with the Holy Spirit?

There is "slain in the Spirit" , "holy laughter movement" , Pensacola Outpouring , Toronto's Blessings , Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where the Holy Spirit falls on believers to heal them, and the two diverse representation of that third baptism of yours as receiving the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues apart from salvation ( your reference ) and the other one saying ( it is "another baptism" with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

Joyce Meyers had the same experience of the Holy Spirit coming over her bringing tongues but she explained that as God calling her into the ministry.

Do you smell something rotten in Denmark yet? They do not know what that spirit is that is coming over them later on in life as a believer. They are just guessing, and vainly trying to fit it into scripture because they want to believe it is from God with that tongue that never comes with interpretation, but that is what tongues were for in speaking unto the people as Paul gave the bottom line on tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 .

So no. My aunt's church was not referring to the phenomenon as a baptism with the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues separate from salvation. No. This was the "holy laughter" movement.

I know about water baptism, but the only baptism that counts is the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation.

Romans 8:9 reproves what you are saying as the third baptism of the Holy Ghost being separate from salvation is not of the truth.

Tongues are not to serve as a sign or proof for any thing to a believer; they are to serve as signs to non-believers. 1 Corinthians 14:22

So by giving an inch to this teaching of yours, many believers think they can receive the Holy Spirit again and again after salvation. It is not of Him.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.....15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Without the witness of the Holy Spirit within us, we are not saved nor adopted yet to call God Father, but we are when we first believed in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

This is Curry Blake. He took over John G lakes minitry. as was prophised over him.

perrero said:

The Bible clearly speak of many Baptisms, but the main Three, that are true witnesses, are Baptism in water [note water] (which the outward testimony and evidence of a believers conversion to Christ, Mark 16:16 ), The Baptism into the Body of Christ at the very point of belief and conversion [note blood] (This is the one Baptism that counts, the only one that leads to Salvation,1 Cor. 12:13-14, it is the Baptism that Paul is referring to in Ephesians 4:4-6),

Click to expand...

There is no mentioned of blood. To be born again of the Spirit is salvation John 3rd chapter is all about that. Romans 8:9 says if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are none of His. There is only one hope of our calling that ties in with one baptism of the One Spirit ( Ephesians 4:4-6 ) and it is received as testified as at our salvation ( Ephesians 1:11-15 )

finally the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, performed by Jesus as He takes the believer and immerses him in the Spirit [note Spirit]
These are the three witnesses I alluded to above. (1 John 5:7-8) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
(Matt. 3:11),and is available following conversion.
So you to say that there is only one Baptism is a gross misunderstanding of scripture no matter what experience you've had. So as I was saying, we must not use our experiences to guide our theology. We must always apply our beliefs against the Word to see if they hold true.

Click to expand...

There is only one baptism with the Holy Spirit and that only happens at our salvation; otherwise, believers wind up preaching another gospel.

Let me ask you this; how is it that after they receive the Holy Spirit, these believers that say it is separate from salvation, they are receiving the Holy Spirit again and again and again? How many baptism is that with the Holy Spirit?

There is "slain in the Spirit" , "holy laughter movement" , Pensacola Outpouring , Toronto's Blessings , Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade where the Holy Spirit falls on believers to heal them, and the two diverse representation of that third baptism of yours as receiving the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues apart from salvation ( your reference ) and the other one saying ( it is "another baptism" with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues.

Joyce Meyers had the same experience of the Holy Spirit coming over her bringing tongues but she explained that as God calling her into the ministry.

Do you smell something rotten in Denmark yet? They do not know what that spirit is that is coming over them later on in life as a believer. They are just guessing, and vainly trying to fit it into scripture because they want to believe it is from God with that tongue that never comes with interpretation, but that is what tongues were for in speaking unto the people as Paul gave the bottom line on tongues in 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 .

So no. My aunt's church was not referring to the phenomenon as a baptism with the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues separate from salvation. No. This was the "holy laughter" movement.

I know about water baptism, but the only baptism that counts is the baptism with the Holy Ghost at our salvation.

Romans 8:9 reproves what you are saying as the third baptism of the Holy Ghost being separate from salvation is not of the truth.

Tongues are not to serve as a sign or proof for any thing to a believer; they are to serve as signs to non-believers. 1 Corinthians 14:22

So by giving an inch to this teaching of yours, many believers think they can receive the Holy Spirit again and again after salvation. It is not of Him.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.....15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Without the witness of the Holy Spirit within us, we are not saved nor adopted yet to call God Father, but we are when we first believed in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

perrero said:

You would rather have a squeaky clean church (crib) so you get rid of the ox (Spirit) but those who choose to invite the Spirit, know full well that humans are humans and that might sometimes bring a mess, nevertheless the advantage is strength and increase.
So you and your theology have thrown out the baby with the bathwater because you have seen too much abuse and instead of dealing with it you find it easier to be dismissed.

Click to expand...

Matthew 7:13-27 speaks against this; Jesus pointed out the iniquity by broadening the way in the worship place by going around the Son ( John 10:1 ) in asking the Holy Spirit to fall on them in bringing signs when only the Son answers prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers ( John 14:6,13-14 ).

No evil tree can produce a good fruit as no good tree can produce an evil fruit so the rudiment of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation as found in all movements of the "Spirit" are bad if you judge one movement as evil or not of the Lord. It does not matter how many they claim to cast out devils in His name or prophesy in His name or do wonderful works in His name; they went around the Son to invoke the Holy Spirit to bring these signs about; and that was not the Holy Spirit answering them at all. It is for that iniquity of denying the Son as the sole Mediator between God and men, Jesus will deny them from attending the Marriage Supper, but He will resurrect them after the great tribulation into His kingdom.

Jesus says to pay attention to His words as those who ignore that He is the only way to come to the Father for anything ( John 14:6 ) is why many houses as in many believers are losing self control and falling down in these movements of the "Spirit" as testified in Matthew 7:24-27.

Leaving your reference out of the quote box to read.

And just so you are clear on all this Baptism stuff if you look at Acts 19:1-7
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed (Blood)? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized (Water) in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost (Spirit) came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

Paul met up with believers who obviously had been Baptized into the Body at their conversion (like the believers at Pentecost) and so he asks them if they received the Holy Ghost since they believe. This was the first time they heard of the Holy Ghost (They were Jews, all they knew was to accept their Messiah Jesus) So Paul was wondering what Baptism did they receive at their conversion. It should have been water baptism, but all they knew was John's Baptism of repentance, which is fine but what follows conversion (BTW when you convert you believe in the sacrifice and shed BLOOD on the cross to be the propitiation for your sins) is WATER baptism. And so he water baptizes them because they were already saved believers with the Holy Spirit in them and following that He lays hands on them to receive what, the Holy SPIRIT. And oh! Look at that they began to speak in tongues and prophecy. Imagine that! As you can see the 3 witnesses blood, water, Spirit, 3 totally different events and these witnesses are one as stated in Hebrews. And to top it of the Scriptures say or the Holy Spirit breathed Luke to write that they 12 believers, which God's number of governmental perfection. Which tells that this story should be the norm in His Government or Kingdom.

Click to expand...

Try to leave your teaching of the three baptisms out of the reading of the scripture so that you may read this plainly.

Paul came across certain disciples but did not know what kind of disciples they were. He had asked the question and they did not know anything about the Holy Spirit. Then Paul had asked them of what water baptism they were under. John the Baptist's. That informed Paul that they were disciples of John the Baptist's; not disciples of Jesus Christ's. THEN Paul told them about Jesus Christ as the One that John the Baptist was preaching about. THEN they got water baptized in Jesus's name after what they had heard from Paul about Jesus & it was after that water baptism in Jesus's name, that they had received the promise of the Holy Ghost. That means these disciples of John the Baptist's were never believers in Jesus Christ until Paul told them about Jesus and then they got water baptized in His name and got saved.

Go before that throne of grace for help, because you need Jesus to deliver you out of this iniquity you are in and help you narrow the way back to the straight gate ( Luke 13:24-30 ) because the Bridegroom will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ, leaving the foolish virgins out in the marketplace behind, seeking to be filled again and again and again for a sign. Return to your first love and serve Him by preaching Jesus Christ & Him crucified for it is at our salvation at the hearing of the gospel is how anyone received the Holy Ghost and are saved.

perrero said:

You would rather have a squeaky clean church

Click to expand...

Paul did. He talked about the falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter in how that will come first . Paul testified that this iniquity that will be the cause of the falling away from the faith was already at work in his day in the church.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.....9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Clarification on the damned is that those believers that fell away from the faith are at risk of being left behind to be damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not discerning this iniquity by His help and departing from this iniquity with His help before the Bridegroom had come. They will be resurrected later on after the great tribulation into His kingdom on earth.

So the lie that will cause a major falling away from the faith is believing you can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. Paul reproves that lie here;

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

That is the traditions we have been taught. That is the traditions we are to hold to because the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth happened at the hearing of the gospel.

Paul confirms those that have fallen away from the faith are still brothers in 2 Thessalonians 3rd chapter and thus still saved, but unless they repent, they run the risk of being excommunicated from the Marriage Supper for being in iniquity. So regardless that they do not have faith, that they walk not after the traditions taught of us, that they walk disorderly as they do when they fall down and stuff like that in confusion, they are not to be treated as the enemy, but admonished as brothers by withdrawing from their company if they refuse to repent. 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15

Paul does want a squeaky clean church. May the Lord recover those who have gone astray before the Bridegroom comes.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

perrero said:

Well I've come to an end, the fact that you do not recognize Pentecost as a separate experience of the believer (someone who is already saved and baptized in water or not) and of the disciples (believers also, unless you want to deny that) at the time, the fact that you cannot see the blood in the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for the salvation of the world, (For without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sins Heb 9:22) the fact that you can't sing "Oh the blood of Jesus washes white as snow" tells me that that your theology is absolutely brainwashed wrong. You would deny Peter at Pentecost telling the people who wanted to know what to do when he told them about the Jesus they crucified. He says repent (that would be salvation in the blood) be baptized (that would water baptism, the outward evidence of what has already transpired internally) and finally receive the Holy Spirit. (This would be there own personal Pentecost as promised by the Father (Acts 1:4)) and as baptized by Jesus (Mat. 3:11, Luke 3:16).

Jesus baptizes the believer with Holy Ghost and fire the Spirit baptizes the believers into the Body of Christ.
Baptizer Baptizee Medium for Batism
Jesus believer Holy Ghost + Fire (Spirit) \
Spirit believer Body of Christ (Blood) > 3 witnesses 1 John 5:8
Believers Converts Water (Water) /
2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

If you think that all the accounts of people being Baptize in the Spirit is the same event that occurs when one is saved, then how come every person who got saved didn't speak in tongues or prophesy (this would include you)? Don't answer that it will be embarrassing.

I would caution you. What the Word says is the work of the Spirit, you are calling it evil other some other Spirit. This is borderline to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
It's time to leave your bad experiences behind and your judgemental attitude on everything that contains "Baptism of the Spirit" including tongues etc. If you can do that surely the Spirit will show you the difference. Don't expect a response after this, I've had my fill with ignorant false theology and people who are too scared of tongues or the Pentecost encounter and don't have enough trust that God would not give them a devil or evil spirit if they truly were seeking for this Baptism.

Luke 11:11-13 "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

Click to expand...

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Per Luke 11:9-13, the message is that once you had received the Holy Ghost by knocking at the door of Jesus, you will not ask for the Holy Ghost again OTHERWISE that would make the Father look EVIL as if He did not give you the Holy Ghost the first time when you were saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

The disciples were not saved until Pentecost because the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost that was to come at their salvation was when Jesus was no longer present with them as this promise was to be sent by the Father in His name as Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Ghost at our salvation.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That was why Jesus told them to wait until power comes unto them from on high so they can minister in His name.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They were not saved until He had ascended to prepare a place for them; hence giving them eternal life from above; thus a citizen above.

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Having the Holy Spirit in us is proof that we have eternal life; not before.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Paul exposed the lie for why God permit the strong delusion to occur and that was the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.....9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

He explains the lie by the reproof given.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

That is the traditions we have been taught. That is the traditions we are to hold to because the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth happened at the hearing of the gospel.

So the lie is believing you can receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation whereas the reproof is reminding believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit as well as the belief of the truth and that was at the hearing of the gospel.

hmm, how many threads are you pasting that into lol

i guess i miss the point there--is there anyone who believes that one can receive the Spirit separate from salvation? (which imo has nothing to do with that stuff you did in "church" umpty-ump years ago, but nevermind that part for now)

perrero said:

It isn't pasted but it is the same argument and truth that comes up whenever people question the Baptism of Holy Spirit and fire.

Click to expand...

ah and what is the accepted interp of the baptism of fire again? I've never heard it preached or anything
the baptism of the Spirit seems to have been reduced to a Tongues ritual that i doubt reflects the real thing much

perrero said:

This is the event that occurred at Pentecost.

Click to expand...

think so, huh. So, no relevance today?

perrero said:

Is there a recipe for discipleship?

Let’s see if we can’t find a verse that is just that, a recipe. Now we all know that the scriptures are not filled with recipes of any kind. Mind you, could the 10 com.............
“Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. John 15:13

Is this not our calling?

Click to expand...

Luke—14:26 to 27


“If any one comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple’’.


The knowledge is compared to a sword. Bhagavatgita says “Chhitva Jnanasinatmanah”. This means that the ignorance should be cut by the knowledge, which is like a sword. The bonds with wife or husband and children are due to ignorance. Such bonds should break when the Lord in human form competes with them to conduct His test. Lord comes in human form in every human generation to preach and give His direct presence. If the Lord comes in only one human generation, God becomes partial to that human generation because other human generations are not blessed with such opportunity. To see, to touch, to talk and to live with the human incarnation, He comes down as per the prayers of the devotees. The Lord comes to preach and so He will not enter the statues or animals or birds. Veda says “Na tasya pratima asti’’ which means that God will not enter the inert statues.


Gita says “Manusheem tanu masritam” which means that God enters the human body only because the main purpose is to preach the human beings. Gita strongly says that he who worships the inert statues will be born as an inert stone (“Bhootani yanti”). The Christians should be commended on this point who are worshipping the Holy Jesus only, who is the most powerful human incarnation of God. Veda says “Na tat samah” which means that nobody and nothing should be equal to the Lord in human incarnation. One should leave everything and everybody for the sake of the Lord in human form. Only the bond with a new human being can break the bond with the human beings. Such new human being must be very powerful who can be only God in human form.


A new bond existing with formless God or statues cannot break the human bonds. Only the bond with another living being can cut the bond with the living beings. The bond with formless God is impossible. The bond with inert statue has no use. The above statements of Holy Jesus indicate that one should cut the bonds with his family and with the wealth. In Hindu religion also it is said that God (Datta) cuts all the bonds of family and wealth (“Dattam Chinnam”). Even the bond with the body should be cut for the sake of the God. Gita says the same thing as “Mat Gata Pranah”. Holy Jesus says that one has to carry his own cross (death) for the sake of the Lord. This means that one has to invite his own death with his own hands for the sake of God. Holy Jesus did like this as an ideal example for others. This means that you have to cut your bonds not only with your family and wealth but also with your life if necessary.


Hanuman, a top devotee, tore his heart with his own nails for the sake of the Lord and was blessed by the Lord to be immortal. So when the devotee sacrifices his life, his life gets protected forever. The essence of this gospel is that the love is proved only by the practical sacrifice. Veda says “Dhanena Tyage nyke…” which means that sacrifice of money proves the real love.


Money is the fruit of the work. So money is another form of work. If it is inconvenient to sacrifice the money, atleast they should sacrifice the other form of money, which is work for the sake of God. Depending on the money all the family members are attached to you. If money is not there all the family will leave you. You are also giving the money to your family only. Therefore if the bond with money is cut and if the money is sacrificed to God, the family bonds are considered as vanished, even though the family exists externally. The work of God in human form is the propagation of His divine gospel. For doing such divine work the family also stands as an obstacle because most of your energy is diverted for the family only. Therefore you do not have any energy to work for the sake of Lord.


Hence Holy Jesus wants His disciples to leave their families for the sake of God. The propagation work needs both money and work. Generally every body works to maintain his family. In the name of maintenance, several luxuries are introduced, which look like essential needs and thus there is no end for your work to earn the money for the sake of your body and your family. Your blindness increases and you will be putting more and more efforts to work and earn money for the sake of the family bonds. In such a case you can never even see the human form of God. At least you should remove your blindness by the divine knowledge if not the actual bonds. People of very high devotion only can cut the actual bonds. You are giving money to your family but you are giving words to God by prayers and you are giving mind to God through meditation.


You are giving love to your family through your work and money, you are calling the sacrifice of words and sacrifice of mind as love to God and you are fooling the God. Your real love is only with your family and not with the God. Holy Jesus tests your real love to God by these statements. The Christian Pope and fathers and the Hindu Acharya and saints left their families and concentrated completely on the work of God. Such pious souls can only be representatives of God in this world.

bbyrd009 said:

hmm, how many threads are you pasting that into lol

Click to expand...

Nobody wants to really touch it by addressing the scripture that plainly reproves it. It seems a lot of believers in this forum believes this and so the necessity to get the truth and the exposing that work of darkness out there needs some postings, but not too much.

At least I know where the majority stands on this crisis of faith in the forum that have replied anyway. Hopefully, those that have steered clear of the topic are being led by the Lord to steer clear of that which is not of Him in the church.

bbyrd009 said:

i guess i miss the point there--is there anyone who believes that one can receive the Spirit separate from salvation? (which imo has nothing to do with that stuff you did in "church" umpty-ump years ago, but nevermind that part for now)

Click to expand...

There ya go below.

perrero said:

It isn't pasted but it is the same argument and truth that comes up whenever people question the Baptism of Holy Spirit and fire.

Click to expand...

There are others, but I am going to stop now because they are not listening to the just cause to defend the faith which is the good fight and that is we have received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the hearing of the gospel by which we have been called.

I suggest you get to know Jesus Christ first by the KJV rather than go after the Holy Spirit in seeking to have tongues as a sign that you did because all believers are children of God by faith in Jesus Christ; not by a sign of tongues.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

They keep overlooking this truth in scripture that if a person does not have the Spirit of Christ, they are none of His ( Romans 8:9 ) and that is why receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with the evidence of tongues is the lie that is causing many saved believers to fall away from the faith.

perrero said:

You have over 2000 posts in this site and you have never heard about Matthew 3:11

Click to expand...

a swing! and a miss, sorry.

JesusIsFaithful said:

Nobody wants to really touch it by addressing the scripture that plainly reproves it. It seems a lot of believers in this forum believes this

Click to expand...

a lot of people believe one can get the Holy Spirit without repentance? Who?

JesusIsFaithful said:

and that is why receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation with the evidence of tongues is the lie that is causing many saved believers to fall away from the faith.

Click to expand...

well i might agree here, but surely the religious argument is that salvation via repentance and baptism have already been accomplished to their standards before any attempt at what they accept as baptism of the spirit is occasioned? So i guess i still am not getting this "separate from salvation" thing.

bbyrd009 said:

a lot of people believe one can get the Holy Spirit without repentance? Who?

Click to expand...

I did not touch on that issue, but I believe repenting from unbelief by believing in Him is the only repentance that is required to be saved. Then afterwards, comes discipleship when Jesus Christ is in you as promised by faith, then you have power to lean on Him to repent from works of darkness and walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son by His grace and His help as our Good Shepherd.

Salvation lays the foundation; then discipleship is running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight and sin in getting to know Him and the power of His resurrection when we see ourselves following Him that we could not do religiously or by will power.