Jesus is a human being but not the one true God

Guestman,

The GNB (TEV) and The Living Bible are not translations. They are paraphrases.

A review of BeDuhn's book states:


You have not dealt with the truth of the Greek grammar of John 8:58. Your JW presuppositions seem to be a barrier.

Oz

Part one

------ Notes on the Deity of Jesus Christ ------
------ Garth D. Wiebe, 1985, uploaded 1997 -----

[All quotes from the New American Standard Bible (NASB). Tetragrammaton
rendered as YHWH in this study (where NASB normally substitutes "the LORD")
for emphasis in distinguishing between the divine name for God in the Old
Testament, and the Hebrew <adonai>, which literally means "lord".]

Ultimately, God is incomprehensible to human minds

"'Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits
of the Almighty?'" (Job 11:7)

"'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My
ways,' declares YHWH. For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your
thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9)

(Also see Job 42:2-6, Psalm 145:3, Isaiah 40:13, Romans 11:33)

But we must not put limits on what God can do

"...all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:27)

"'I know that you can do all things...'" (Job 42:2)

Jesus Christ was either God, or not "good" -- we must choose.

"And as He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and
knelt before Him, and began asking Him, 'Good Teacher, what shall
I do to inherit eternal life?' And Jesus said to him, 'Why do
you call me good? No one is good except God alone.'" (Mark 10:17-18)

Jesus Christ is God.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God" (John 1:1)

He was the original Creator of the heavens and the earth.

"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came
into being that has come into being." (John 1:3)

"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and the
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers
or authorities -- all things have been created by Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
(Col 1:16-17)

Jesus lowered Himself, was exhalted.

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..." (John 1:14)

"...who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard
equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself [i.e.
laid aside His privileges], taking the form of a bond-servant,
being made in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance
as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of
death, even death on a cross. Therefore also God highly exhalted
Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that
at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in
heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue
should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the
Father. (Phil 2:5-11)

Jesus' position on earth was of voluntary submission to the Father, setting
aside many of His privileges to act as God.

"'...the Father is greater than I.'" (John 14:28)

Jesus' nature and equality with God is not denied, even by Jesus

"For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill
Him, because He was not only breaking the Sabbath, but also he was
calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18)

"'I and the Father are one.' The Jews took up stones again to stone
Him. Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the
Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?' The Jews answered
Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and
because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.' [Rather
than correct them, Jesus then proceeds to reinforce his claim,
followed by the Jews again seeking to seize him] (John 10:30-39)

"'I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father
except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My
Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.' Phillip
said to Him, 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.'
Jesus said to him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have
not come to know Me, Phillip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father;
how do you say, "Show us the Father"? (John 14:6-9)

"For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (Col 2:9)

"Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said
to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are
they who did not see, and yet believed." (John 20:28-29)

He resumed his position of "all authority" after the resurrection

"'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'"
(Matt 28:18)

Jesus' name implies Deity

"'Behold, the virgin will be with child, and shall bear a Son, and
they shall call His name Immanuel' [Isaiah 7:14], which translated
means, 'God with us'". (Matt 1:23)

Old Testament prophecies of coming Messiah imply Deity

"...His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."
(Micah 5:2)

"...And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

Jesus is YHWH, the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14 (<EGO EIMI> of NT and Greek Septuagint)

"Then Moses said to God, 'Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel,
and I shall say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you."
Now they may say to me, "What is His name?" What shall I say to them?'
And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, 'Thus you shall
say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."' And God,
furthermore, said to Moses, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,
"YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you." This is my name forever,
and is My memorial-name to all generations.'" (Exodus 3:13-15)

"'I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless
you believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.'" (John 8:24)

"'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'
Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him..." (John 8:58-59)

"Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him,
went forth and said to them, 'Whom do you seek?' They answered Him,
'Jesus the Nazarene.' He said to them, "I AM." And Judas also who
was betraying Him, was standing with them. When therefore He said
to them, "I AM", they drew back and fell to the ground." (John 18:4-6)

References in Old Testament to YHWH find fulfillment in Jesus of New Testament.

OT "A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for YHWH in the wilderness; make
smooth in the desert a highway for our God." (Isaiah 40:3)

NT "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb
of God who takes away the sin of the world.'" (John 1:29)

OT "'In that day YHWH will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem... they
will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him,
as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him,
like the bitter weeping over a first-born.'" (Zech 12:8-10)

NT "Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him,
even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will
mourn over Him. (Rev 1:7)

OT "Then YHWH will go forth and fight against those nations, as when
He fights on a day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand
on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east..."
(Zech 14:3-4)

NT "And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were
looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they
were gazing intently into the sky while He was departing, behold, two
men in white clothing stood beside them; and they also said, 'Men of
Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has
been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as
you have watched Him go into heaven.' Then they returned to Jerusalem
from the hill called the Mount of Olives, which is near Jerusalem..."
(Acts 1:9-12)

OT "'And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of YHWH will
be delivered.'" (Joel 2:32)

NT "...that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in
your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved...
for whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
(Romans 10:9,13)

Also, see

Psalm 23:1, Isaiah 40:11 --> John 10:1-14, Heb 13:20, 1 Pet 2:25,5:4
Psalm 50:1-6 --> 2 Thess 1:7-10
Psalm 68:15-18 --> Eph 4:8
Psalm 102:1,12,25-27 --> Heb 1:10-12
Isaiah 8:12-15 --> 1 Pet 2:8
Isaiah 43:3 --> Acts 3:14
Isaiah 44:6 --> Rev 1:7,8,17,18,2:8,22:13
Isaiah 45:22,23 --> Rom 14:9-12, 2 Cor 5:10, Phil 2:10
Isaiah 62:11,12 --> Rev 22:12
Jer 11:12,17:10,20:12 --> Rev 2:23

Jesus was called "God" by apostles

"...and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

"Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and My God!'" (John 20:28)

"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the
bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (John 1:18)

"'Be on guard for yourselves and all the flock, among which the Holy
Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He
purchased with His own blood.'" (Acts 20:28)

"But of the Son, He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and
the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. Thou hast loved
righteousness and hated lawnessnesss; therefore God, thy God, hath
anointed Thee...' [Psalm 45:6-7]" (Hebrews 1:8-9)

"...looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of
our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that
He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a
people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." (Titus 2:13-14)

"...by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ."
(1 Peter 1:1)

"And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved, you
and your household.' --> ...and rejoiced greatly, having believed in
God with his whole household." (Acts 16:31,34)

"But the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging Him that
he might accompany Him; but He sent him away, saying, "Return to your
house and describe what great things God has done for you." And he
went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things
Jesus had done for him. (Luke 8:38-39)

Both Jesus and God are the "First and the Last"

YHWH: "This is what YHWH says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, YHWH Almighty:
I am the first, and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
(Isaiah 44:6)

YHWH: "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am
the first and I am the last. My own hand laid the foundations of
the earth,..." (Isaiah 48:12-13)

Jesus: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One;
I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!" (Rev 1:17)

Jesus: "...These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died
and came to life again." (Rev 2:8)

Both Jesus and God are the "Alpha and the Omega" (first and last letters of
the Greek alphabet)

God: "I am the Alpha and the Omega", says the Lord God, "who is, and who
was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Rev 1:8)

God: He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the
Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink
without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes
will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son."
(Rev 21:6-7)

Jesus: "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to
everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega,
the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (Rev 22:12-13)

Both Jesus and God are the "Savior"

God: "'For I am YHWH your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior...'"
(Isaiah 43:3)

God: "'I, even I, am YHWH; And there is no savior besides Me.'"
(Isaiah 43:11)

God: "'And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior'" (Luke 1:47)

God: "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our
hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of
believers." (1 Tim 4:10)

Jesus: "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it
is He who will save His people from their sins." (Matt 1:21)

Jesus: "for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior,
who is Christ the Lord." (Luke 2:11)

Jesus: "'...for we have heard for ourselves and know that this one is indeed
the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)

Jesus: "'And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name
under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.'"
(Acts 4:12)

Both Jesus and God are the "King"

God: "For YHWH is a great God, and a great King above all gods."
(Psalm 95:3)

God: "'I am YHWH, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.'"
(Isaiah 43:15)

God: "But YHWH is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting
King..." (Jer 10:10)

God: "And YHWH will be king over all the earth; in that day YHWH will be
the only one." (Zech 14:9)

Jesus: "'Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?'" (Matt 2:2)

Jesus: "...He who is the blessed and only Soveriegn, the King of kings and
Lord of lords..." (1 Tim 6:15)

Jesus: "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome
them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings..." (Rev 17:14)

Jesus: "And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF
KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." (Rev 19:16)

Both Jesus and God are "Judge"

God: "...For God Himself is Judge." (Psalm 50:6)

God: "Before YHWH, for He is coming to judge the earth..." (Psalm 96:13

God: "...For we whall all stand before the judgment seat of God."
(Rom 14:10)

Jesus: "'For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all
judgement to the Son," (John 5:22)

Jesus: "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ..."
(1 Cor 5:10)

Both Jesus and God are the "Light"

God: "For Thou art my lamp, O YHWH; and YHWH illuminates my darkness."
(2 Sam 22:29)

God: "YHWH is my light and my salvation..." (Psalm 27:1)

Jesus: "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light
shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
(John 1:4-5)

Jesus: "There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens
every man." (John 1:9)

Jesus: "Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, 'I am the light of the
world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall
have the light of life.'" (John 8:12)

Both Jesus and God are the "Rock"

God: "'For I proclaim the name of YHWH; ascribe greatness to our God!
The Rock! His work is perfect..." (Deut 32:4-5)

God: "'For who is God, besides YHWH? And who is a rock, besides our God?'"
(2 Sam 22:32)

God: "'He will cry to me, "Thou art my Father, My God, and the rock of
my salvation."'" (Psalm 89:26)

God: "'It is YHWH of hosts whom you should regard as holy. And He shall be
your fear, and he shall be your dread. Then He shall become a
sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a
rock to stumble over. And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of
Jerusalem.'" (Isaiah 8:13-14)

Jesus: "Therefore says YHWH God, 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a
tested stone, a costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.'" (Isaiah 28:16)

Jesus: "...upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades
will not overpower it." (Matt 16:18)

Jesus: "He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, which became
the very cornerstone." (Acts 4:11)

Jesus: "...for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them,
and that rock was Christ." (1 Cor 10:4)

Both Jesus and God are the "Redeemer"

God: "'Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel..."
(Isaiah 48:17)

God: "...And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel..." (Isaiah 54:5)

Jesus: "In Him we have redemption through His blood..." (Eph 1:7)

Jesus: "...He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained
eternal redemption." (Heb 9:12)

Both Jesus and God are "Husband"

God: "'For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is YHWH of hosts;...'"
(Isaiah 54:5)

God: "'And it will come about in that day,' declares YHWH, 'that you
will call me Ishi [i.e. my husband] and will no longer call me
Baali [i.e. my Master].'" (Hosea 2:16)

Jesus: "'Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins,
who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom.'"
(Matt 25:1)

Jesus: "'...So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot
fast. But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away
from them, and then they will fast in that day'" (Mark 2:29-20)

Jesus: "For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed
you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure
virgin." (2 Cor 11:2)

Jesus: "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church
and gave Himself up for her" (Eph 5:25)

Jesus: "'Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the
marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself
ready.'" (Rev 19:7)

Jesus: "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven
from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev 21:2)

Jesus: "'Come here, I shall show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb'"
(Rev 21:9)

Both Jesus and God are the "Shepherd"

God: "YHWH is my shepherd. I shall not want." (Psalm 23:1)

God: "Oh give ear, Shepherd of Israel..." (Psalm 80:1)

God: "Know that YHWH Himself is God; it is He who has made us, and not
we ourselves. We are His people and the sheep of His pasture."
(Psalm 100:1)

God: "Like a shepherd He will tend His flock, in His arm He will gather
the lambs, and carry them in His bosom; He will gently lead the
nursing ewes." (Isaiah 40:10)

Jesus: "'I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me'"
(John 10:11)

Jesus: "Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great
Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant,
Jesus our Lord" (Heb 13:20)

Jesus: "For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have
returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls." (1 Peter 2:25)

Jesus: "And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading
crown of glory." (1 Peter 5:4)

Both Jesus and God are the "Creator"

God: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen 1:1)

God: "'Of old Thou didst found the earth; and the heavens are the work of
Thy hands.'" (Psalm 102:25)

God: "...The Everlasting God, YHWH, the Creator of the ends of the earth..."
(Isaiah 40:28)

God: "'...I, YHWH, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens
by myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'" (Isaiah 44:24)

Jesus: "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came
into being." (John 1:3)

Jesus: "For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and the
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers
or authorities -- all things have been created by Him and for Him.
And he is before all things, and in Him all things hold together"
(Col 1:16-17)

Jesus: "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth.
And the heavens are the works of thy hands;" (Heb 1:10)

Jesus: "For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so
much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. For
every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God."
(Heb 3:3-4)

Both Jesus and God are the giver of life

God: "'See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me; it is
I who put to death and give life...'" (Deut 32:39)

God: "'YHWH kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.'"
(1 Sam 2:6)

Jesus: "'For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even
so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." (John 5:21)

Jesus: "...I myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:40)

Jesus: "...and I give eternal life to them..." (John 10:28)

Jesus: "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25)

Jesus: "'...and you are unwilling to come to me, that you may have life.'"
(John 5:40)

Jesus had authority to raise even Himself from the dead

"'Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up'...He
was speaking of the temple of His body." (John 2:19,21)

"'For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life
that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but
I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to take it up
again. This commandment I received from My Father.'" (John 10:17-18)

Jesus has authority to forgive sins -- only God can forgive sins

"And Jesus, seeing their faith said to the paralytic, 'My son,
your sins are forgiven.' But there were some of the scribes sitting
there and reasoning in their hearts, 'Why does this man speak that
way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?'"
(Mark 2:5-7)

"...He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all
our transgressions," (Col 2:13)

Jesus received worship -- only God can receive worship

"'...For it is written [Deut 6:13] "You shall worship the Lord
your God, and serve Him only"'" (Matt 4:10)

Barnabas and Paul rebuked people for worshipping them (Acts 14:11-18)

Angels refuse worship (Rev 19:10, Rev 22:9)

Angels commanded to worship Jesus (Hebrews 1:6)

"'Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His
star in the east, and have come to worship Him.'" (Matt 2:2)

"...and they fell down and worshipped Him; and opening their treasures
they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."
(Matt 1:11)

"And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and
took ahold of His feet and worshipped Him." (Matt 28:9)

"And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him..." (Matt 28:17)

"And he said, 'Lord, I believe.' And he worshiped Him." (John 9:38)


Jesus is omnipresent (Is present everywhere at the same time)

"'For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there
I am in their midst.'" (Matt 18:20)

"(Now this expression, 'He ascended,' what does it mean except that
He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who
descended is Himself He who ascended far above all the heavens, that
He might fill all things.)" (Eph 4:9-10)

Jesus is omniscient (Is all-knowing)

"'Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone
to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.'"
(John 16:30)

"'...Lord, you know all things...'" (John 21:17)

Jesus is omnipotent (Is all-powerful)

"'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'"
(Matt 28:18)

Jesus is pre-existant (Existed before all things)

"'I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am
leaving the world again, and going to the Father." (John 16:28)

"He was in the beginning with God." (John 1:2)

"'And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the
glory which I had with Thee before the world was.'" (John 17:5)

Jesus is eternal (beyond the limits of time)

"...And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

"...His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."
(Micah 5:2)

"'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'
(John 8:58)

"...and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His
kingdom will have no end." (Luke 1:33)

"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither
beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God,
he [Melchizedek] abides a priest perpetually." (Heb 7:3)

Jesus is immutable (does not change)

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever."
(Heb 13:8)

Jesus spoke with authority

"Truly, Truly I say unto you..." (not "Thus saith the Lord")

"'Consequently, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.'"
(Mark 2:28)

"'Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and
scribes...'" (Matt 23:34)

"'If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.'" (John 14:14)

"follow Me." (not just "follow God")

Disciples prayed to Jesus

"And the went on stoning Steven as he called upon the Lord and
said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!' And falling on his knees,
he cried out with a lound voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin
against them!' And having said this, he fell asleep." (Acts 7:59-60)

"Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it [thorn
in flesh] might depart from me. And He has said to me, 'My grace
is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.' Most
gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, that
the power of Christ may dwell in me." (2 Cor 12:8-9)

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the
Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
And this is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we
ask anything according to His will, He hears us." (1 John 5:13-14)

"'Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord
that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
For I wee that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage
of iniquity.' But Simon answered and said, 'Pray to the Lord for
me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon
me'" (Acts 8:22-24) [In verse 16, Jesus is the "Lord"]

Problem scripture:

"Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God. YHWH is one!" (Deut 6:4)

Expl: Hebrew word for "one" is <achad>, which means "united" one, rather
than <yachid>, which means "only" one. <achad> is same word used
in Gen 2:24 "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his
mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one
flesh"

Problem scriptures:

"the Father is greater than I"
Jesus didn't know "day or hour" of his return
Jesus prayed to the Father
etc.

Expl: Jesus lowered Himself while on earth, giving up many of his privileges
as God. Jesus provided example to men about how to lead a perfect
human life. Jesus was both perfect God and perfect man.

Problem scripture:

Jesus was "begotten"

Expl: "begotten" does not mean "created". What God begets is "God", just as
what man begets is "man" and what animal begets is "animal". What
God creates is not God (e.g. man, angels), and what man creates is not
man (e.g. house, computer).

Problem scripture:

Jesus was the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)

Expl: Word used for "firstborn" is <prototokos>, not <protoktistos>, which
means "first-created". "Firstborn" can mean either literal "first
person born", or "pre-eminent" one. In Jewish culture, the literal
"firstborn" male normally inherited the position of pre-eminence
("heir", "first in rank"). [See Jeremiah 31:9 -- "Ephraim is my
first-born". Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, and Manasseh
was the literal firstborn (Gen 41:50-52). In Genesis 48, Ephaim is
given title of "firstborn". Also see Psalm 89:27 which says that
God will appoint Jesus as "firstborn" -- verb is future tense, thus
Jesus "firstborn-ness" must have been bestowed upon Him after Psalm
was written.

Problem scripture:

Jesus said he was the "beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14)

Expl: Greek word for "beginning" is <arche>, which can also mean "source"
or "origin". <arche> is used in Rev 21:6 "I am the Alpha and the
Omega, the beginning and the end", and in John 1:1 "In the beginning
was the Word...".

Problem scripture:

"God said, 'Let us make man in Our image'..." (Gen 1:26)

Expl: The word for "God" in the Hebrew is <Elohim>, which is plural. We
know that no "seperate being" participated with God, because Isaiah
44:24 teaches us that YHWH was alone when He created the universe, that
He did it by Himself.

Problem scripture:

"No man has seen God at any time..." (John 1:18)

Expl: Careful examination of the passage yields one of two possible
interpretations: 1. It is the "Father" being referred to in the
first part of the sentence. 2. The passage is stating that no one
has seen God in His entirety. Remember that God manifested Himself
physically to men many times in the Old Testament.

Problem scripture:

"Why do you call me 'good'? No one is good except God" (Mark 10:18)

Expl: Jesus was 'good' -- there was nothing 'bad' about Him. Therefore he
must be either be God, or He is not 'good'. Jesus is challenging us
to evaluate what we think about Him. Perceiving Him as a "good
teacher" is not good enough. We must believe that He is God. And
following "God" is not good enough. Jesus said in verse 21:

"...follow Me"

OzSpen said:

Guestman,

The GNB (TEV) and The Living Bible are not translations. They are paraphrases.

A review of BeDuhn's book states:

Truth in Translation is an excellent book. It is well worth reading. BeDuhn has done an outstanding job of explaining and illustrating translation bias in the New Testament.

However, this book will certainly polarize ones of Jehovah's Witnesses and evangelical Christians. BeDuhn makes a number of favorable comments regarding the New World Translation's handling of specific verses in contrast to the same verses in Bibles favored by evangelical Protestants. As a result, evangelical Protestants will (often, without merit) be suspicious of Truth in Translation.

The Watch Tower Society will want to selectively quote BeDuhn's book because he compliments portions of the New World Translation. On the other hand, considering what Truth in Translation also says about the New World Translation in areas of its weakness, the Watch Tower Society will need to proceed cautiously when quoting Truth in Translation. BeDuhn devoted an entire appendix (The Use of "Jehovah") to the 237 occurrences of "Jehovah" in the New World Translation Greek Scriptures (New Testament). In that appendix he essentially denies the most prominent feature of the New World Translation's Greek Scriptures when he disputes the appropriateness of using Jehovah in the New Testament. We will consider that subject in the Appendix comments (source).​

You have not dealt with the truth of the Greek grammar of John 8:58. Your JW presuppositions seem to be a barrier.

Oz

Click to expand...

It was explained very carefully in Jason BeDuhn's comments concerning John 8:58, but you are like the Jewish religious leaders who rejected Jesus words about overstepping God's commands at Matthew 15:1-11. Hence, Jesus told his disciples about their unwillingness to reason on what was right: "Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit".(Matt 15:13, 14)

Hence, as Jesus said, I will let you be, for this discussion has come to an end with you.

Sword said:

Problem scriptures:

"the Father is greater than I"
Jesus didn't know "day or hour" of his return
Jesus prayed to the Father

Click to expand...

these are not problem scriptures.
A. "the Father is greater than I". in quality, or quantity, which will answer that question.
B. Jesus didn't know "day or hour" of his return. that question have been answer in the "act of the will".
C. "Jesus prayed to the Father", answer as the "diversity" of himself in flesh.
so no problems.

Sword said:

"No man has seen God at any time..." (John 1:18)

Click to expand...

God is a Spirit, and was manifested in the flesh. question, "Have you see your mother or earthly father spirit?, no, you only seen the house, or tabernacle that they dwell in.

Sword said:

Jesus said he was the "beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14)

Expl: Greek word for "beginning" is <arche>, which can also mean "source"
or "origin". <arche> is used in Rev 21:6 "I am the Alpha and the
Omega, the beginning and the end", and in John 1:1 "In the beginning
was the Word...".

Click to expand...

God is a G243 ἀλλος, of himself. which H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') express in the Hebrew
(cf. Lat. alius, Eng. else),
[in LXX for H259, H312, etc.;]

but also in Genesis 1:1 this is clearly shown in the אֵת aleph (the First) and the tav (the Last). this is not a unity, but the equal share of oneself.

Sword said:

Problem scripture:

"Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God. YHWH is one!" (Deut 6:4)

Expl: Hebrew word for "one" is <achad>, which means "united" one, rather
than <yachid>, which means "only" one. <achad> is same word used
in Gen 2:24 "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his
mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one
flesh"

Problem scriptures:

"the Father is greater than I"
Jesus didn't know "day or hour" of his return
Jesus prayed to the Father
etc.

Expl: Jesus lowered Himself while on earth, giving up many of his privileges
as God. Jesus provided example to men about how to lead a perfect
human life. Jesus was both perfect God and perfect man.

Problem scripture:

Jesus was "begotten"

Expl: "begotten" does not mean "created". What God begets is "God", just as
what man begets is "man" and what animal begets is "animal". What
God creates is not God (e.g. man, angels), and what man creates is not
man (e.g. house, computer).

Problem scripture:

Jesus was the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)

Expl: Word used for "firstborn" is <prototokos>, not <protoktistos>, which
means "first-created". "Firstborn" can mean either literal "first
person born", or "pre-eminent" one. In Jewish culture, the literal
"firstborn" male normally inherited the position of pre-eminence
("heir", "first in rank"). [See Jeremiah 31:9 -- "Ephraim is my
first-born". Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, and Manasseh
was the literal firstborn (Gen 41:50-52). In Genesis 48, Ephaim is
given title of "firstborn". Also see Psalm 89:27 which says that
God will appoint Jesus as "firstborn" -- verb is future tense, thus
Jesus "firstborn-ness" must have been bestowed upon Him after Psalm
was written.

Problem scripture:

Jesus said he was the "beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14)

Expl: Greek word for "beginning" is <arche>, which can also mean "source"
or "origin". <arche> is used in Rev 21:6 "I am the Alpha and the
Omega, the beginning and the end", and in John 1:1 "In the beginning
was the Word...".

Problem scripture:

"God said, 'Let us make man in Our image'..." (Gen 1:26)

Expl: The word for "God" in the Hebrew is <Elohim>, which is plural. We
know that no "seperate being" participated with God, because Isaiah
44:24 teaches us that YHWH was alone when He created the universe, that
He did it by Himself.

Problem scripture:

"No man has seen God at any time..." (John 1:18)

Expl: Careful examination of the passage yields one of two possible
interpretations: 1. It is the "Father" being referred to in the
first part of the sentence. 2. The passage is stating that no one
has seen God in His entirety. Remember that God manifested Himself
physically to men many times in the Old Testament.

Problem scripture:

"Why do you call me 'good'? No one is good except God" (Mark 10:18)

Expl: Jesus was 'good' -- there was nothing 'bad' about Him. Therefore he
must be either be God, or He is not 'good'. Jesus is challenging us
to evaluate what we think about Him. Perceiving Him as a "good
teacher" is not good enough. We must believe that He is God. And
following "God" is not good enough. Jesus said in verse 21:

"...follow Me"

Click to expand...

If I may offer the unanswered "problem scriptures"...

These "problem scriptures" are simply difficult to understand. But God is higher than we are, and these are not a problem for him. The same is true even among people...some things that are easy for some, are beyond the ability of others. I will attempt to explain:

"Hear, O Israel! YHWH is our God. YHWH is one!" (Deut 6:4) = ScottA on christianityboard.com and the guy who wrote Walking Like Einstein, are [one] and the same. In other words, in our lowly, worldly experience, we know them differently...but God the Father and Christ Jesus are One and the same.

"the Father is greater than I" = When ScottA is at work he's the boss, but in his yard, he's a gardener. Nonetheless, the same guy.

Jesus didn't know "day or hour" of his return = ScottA did not know the day or the hour that he will die, but Christ in him, does. Yet, we are One.

Jesus prayed to the Father = I pray to the Father in Jesus' name, but Christ is One with the Father, and Christ is in me, and we are One.

ScottA said:

These "problem scriptures" are simply difficult to understand. But God is higher than we are, and these are not a problem for him. The same is true even among people...some things that are easy for some, are beyond the ability of others. I will attempt to explain:

Click to expand...

GINOLJC, to ScottA, good explanation. I understand what you said here. and you're correct in saying, "The same is true even among people...some things that are easy for some, are beyond the ability of others". that's why we should not forsake the assembly of ourselves. because one can give insight to another on a subject that the other is weak in. just as you're learned in what you're saying in the "Concepts of time" topic.
I responded to these question above before and found one of them, the "Greater than I" question. if you would take a look at the post #67 in the "Godhead, Diversified Oneness" topic, and give me your opinion. thanks.

I'm going to be posting the other two question in the topic "the Godhead, diversified Oneness" for future reference.

kerwin said:

Premises;

• Scripture states

1 Timothy 2:5-6New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

5 For there is one God.
There is also one mediator between God and the human race,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself as ransom for all.
This was the testimony[a] at the proper time.

Footnotes:

2:6 The testimony: to make sense of this overly concise phrase, many manuscripts supply “to which” (or “to whom”); two others add “was given.” The translation has supplied “this was.”

• Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35-36)
• A being is either of 100% of one kind or 100% of another not 100% of one kind and 100% of another.

Using deductive reasoning it is quite easy to see that since all these premises are true then Jesus is 100% human and 0% the one true God.

The following is a comment about fallen human nature but is off topic though related. Feel free to address it as well.

Assuming most people are rational human being it follows they should agree unless they suspend disbelief of the claim that Jesus is God. The suspension of disbelief is not faith but rather a form of denial. It is therefore an internal decision that rational arguments cannot address but rather requires the work of the Spirit.

Click to expand...

you cant measure eternity in percentages. Thats whats called mathematical nonsense.

kerwin said:

Premises;

• Scripture states

1 Timothy 2:5-6New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

5 For there is one God.
There is also one mediator between God and the human race,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself as ransom for all.
This was the testimony[a] at the proper time.

Footnotes:

2:6 The testimony: to make sense of this overly concise phrase, many manuscripts supply “to which” (or “to whom”); two others add “was given.” The translation has supplied “this was.”

• Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35-36)
• A being is either of 100% of one kind or 100% of another not 100% of one kind and 100% of another.

Using deductive reasoning it is quite easy to see that since all these premises are true then Jesus is 100% human and 0% the one true God.

The following is a comment about fallen human nature but is off topic though related. Feel free to address it as well.

Assuming most people are rational human being it follows they should agree unless they suspend disbelief of the claim that Jesus is God. The suspension of disbelief is not faith but rather a form of denial. It is therefore an internal decision that rational arguments cannot address but rather requires the work of the Spirit.

Click to expand...

kerwin,

This is what happens when you cherry pick 2 verses to try to develop your own doctrine. StanJ has given you a substantial Scripture that refutes your position. Your emphasis cannot be correct and Stan's emphasis correct.

We need to check the totality of Scripture. Was Jesus human and/or was He divine?

See:

• Did John 8:58 refer to Jesus as God?

• Is Jesus a God and not the God?

Oz

Jesus IS God who allowed Himself to be born human and give His blood and life as payment for our sins!!
Scripture to help you understand who Jesus is?? Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" exodus 3:14
God the Father says to Jesus==But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

Many scriptures say Jesus IS God!!!


John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 10:30 - I and [my] Father are one.

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

GISMYS_7 said:

Jesus IS God who allowed Himself to be born human and give His blood and life as payment for our sins!!
Scripture to help you understand who Jesus is?? Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" exodus 3:14

Click to expand...

GINOLJC, this is correct, Jesus is God diversified in flesh. the "I AM THAT I AM. this is Jesus in Revelation, Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

I AM - THAT - - I AM
Which is - Which Was - Which is to come
Is Spirit - was in Flesh - Is Spirit In Flesh
Gen 1:1 - John 1:1 - Rev 1:1

OzSpen said:

Was Jesus human and/or was He divine?

Click to expand...

He was A Son of Man ( the last Adam, which means man, not male )who lived His life in perfect harmony with that of our Father, and in doing so, He never sinned, so He was able to do what He did.
God Himself in a scripture (sorry dunno number) calls Jesus His Son.......:" This is MY beloved Son, Hear Him.".
So He is both........He paid for all the sin of mankind........But He also made an avenue open for us to be JOINED unto God now, not just to have a walk in the garden with Him once a day, but ALL the time........Being both the Son of Man and The Son of God, He is the bridge needed for our beings to be saved and come into His Light......In Him, in His divinity , we stand, as if we had NEVER sinned, before the very throne of God, who is now able to be our beloved Father forever, no more interruptions......

pia said:

He was A Son of Man ( the last Adam, which means man, not male )who lived His life in perfect harmony with that of our Father, and in doing so, He never sinned, so He was able to do what He did.
God Himself in a scripture (sorry dunno number) calls Jesus His Son.......:" This is MY beloved Son, Hear Him.".
So He is both........He paid for all the sin of mankind........But He also made an avenue open for us to be JOINED unto God now, not just to have a walk in the garden with Him once a day, but ALL the time........Being both the Son of Man and The Son of God, He is the bridge needed for our beings to be saved and come into His Light......In Him, in His divinity , we stand, as if we had NEVER sinned, before the very throne of God, who is now able to be our beloved Father forever, no more interruptions......

Click to expand...

GINOLJC to all, pia, you're correct. many don't know or understand the "NATURE" of Christ, that the Lord Jesus is the son of man (the inner man, spirit, diversified) and the son of God (the Outward man, Flesh & bones). we all are spirits the (inner man) with a dwelling place of spatial, meaning our flesh in this natural created world. our Lord and Savior "took part" and was not a Partaker in this spatial of flesh, bone, with blood in it's Likeness. this is very important, because "Took Part", and "Partaker" are not the same, hence the reason for his virgin birth. Isaiah the prophet was correct in saying "a child is born", FLESH, bone, with blood", son of God. then he said, "a son is given", (spirit, diversified, the G243 allos of God), the son of man. that son that spirit that was given was in the garden with Adam and Eve, the first MALE, and FEMALE, which again you're correct. Adam was man until God made the man Male and female on day 6. the image of God is MALE and Female, or in the Greek as stated above the 243 allos, or the ANOTHER of oneself. this is what the Lord Jesus is. another "of" God himself in FLESH, better known as the diversity, or the "offspring" of God. not two persons, but one from oneself, meaning a "share", better express in the book of Philippians chapter 2 as being "EQUAL WITH" who he clearly defines himself as the another of God himself in flesh. just read and search the definition found there one will clearly see the the G243 allos of God in flesh.

be blessed and keep up the good work.

101G said:

be blessed and keep up the good work.

Click to expand...

Hi there. You too,
I will have to read through your post a couple of times, a lot in it

pia said:

He was A Son of Man ( the last Adam, which means man, not male )who lived His life in perfect harmony with that of our Father, and in doing so, He never sinned, so He was able to do what He did.
God Himself in a scripture (sorry dunno number) calls Jesus His Son.......:" This is MY beloved Son, Hear Him.".
So He is both........He paid for all the sin of mankind........But He also made an avenue open for us to be JOINED unto God now, not just to have a walk in the garden with Him once a day, but ALL the time........Being both the Son of Man and The Son of God, He is the bridge needed for our beings to be saved and come into His Light......In Him, in His divinity , we stand, as if we had NEVER sinned, before the very throne of God, who is now able to be our beloved Father forever, no more interruptions......

Click to expand...

pia,

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but to say that 'he was A Son of Man' is not a biblical position, according to John 3:13, καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου (SBLNT).

ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου = ho huios tou anthrwpou = the Son of the Man.

Oz

OzSpen said:

pia,

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but to say that 'he was A Son of Man' is not a biblical position, according to John 3:13, καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς, ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου (SBLNT).

ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου = ho huios tou anthrwpou = the Son of the Man.

Oz

Click to expand...

Oz
Is that you?
I'm Wondering if it's you?!!

GodsGrace said:

Oz
Is that you?
I'm Wondering if it's you?!!

Click to expand...

GodsGrace,

So are you Wondering from northern Italy? I'm the Aussie bloke from northern Brissy, Qld, Australia. Same fellow OzSpen.

Got a contract on my house on Saturday & hope to be leaving here to go to my down-sized 2-bedroom villa in a month.

In your understanding, is Jesus the One True God or only human? What saith the Scriptures?

Oz