Understanding John's Revelation

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101G

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Hi there 101G
I must say I find these bible studies a bit too brainy for my tiny brain! :)

But if I was in on this, then you have lost me right there...because I don't believe that Revelation 12 has anything at all to do with the birth of Jesus!!
I believe it typifies the birthing of the sons...Overcomers ( of Rev 2) "to him that Overcometh..." x 7
GINOLJC, thanks for the response. this is great. christians need to have conversation on the scriptures. don't worry about the brainy stuff, all scripture are true. ok, ByGrace, explain to me why you believe that chapter 12 have nothing to do with the Lord Jesus birth. it's good to hear others beliefs. so take your time, I'm all ears.
 

Helen

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GINOLJC, thanks for the response. this is great. christians need to have conversation on the scriptures. don't worry about the brainy stuff, all scripture are true. ok, ByGrace, explain to me why you believe that chapter 12 have nothing to do with the Lord Jesus birth. it's good to hear others beliefs. so take your time, I'm all ears.

Obviously no one , however much they may study the scriptures can say “ I KNOW”.
We each have in our ‘bag’ that which we believe that Good has shown to us. :) I’m sure the traditional teaching is the Rev 12 is showing Jesus as the man child. But I think it is deeper than than that. Most things are deeper than just what the surface seems to say. I think that is the difference between 'Meat and milk.'

In the New Testament, God’s Church is symbolized as a woman; and its members are as virgins Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 14:4; Revelation 19:7.

The NT Church is called “the Israel of God” Galatians 6:16 and likened to “Jerusalem which is above,” which is called “the mother of us all” . Galatians 4:26, Hebrews 12:22-23.

Members of the Body of Christ, are described as “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people” 1 Peter 2:9.
We know that Jesus Christ is going to marry His Church Bride, (which is called “His wife” in Revelation 19:7.) Based on these passages, it is clear to me that the woman in Revelation 12 represents God’s people. Not Mary! ( hope we are still together here? ha!)
I believe that the man child ,represents the overcomers. And I believe that the 144,000 represent the overcoming man child...... ( the Head and the body) Those that follow the Lamb wherever He goes…no separation , moving ‘as one' . And a type of all Israel both natural and spiritual.
Many people have a problem with "levels in heaven"....but there already is, and there always will be. Not all angels are arch-angles...even Michael and Gabriel have different functions. Not all blood washed Christians will be the same...some will , be closer, some not so...depending who close or not they lived with the Lord in this 'here and now'. Hence the test of wood , hay and stubble, or Gold Silver and Precious stone. Our walk and desires right now...are determining where we will be when with the Lord. That is what God showed me a few decades ago when I was first born-again.
Not all the disciples went up the mount with Jesus..." just the few"...He didn't love the others less..but their zeal for the things of God separated them out. Many people have got quite angry with me when I have mentioned that. But much old church teaching conveys that we will all be one happy glob in heaven.
Paul said ..I PRESS TOWARD.....I run to receive....the Prize = the fullness of the Presence of Jesus Christ...
That has always been what keeps we walking and drives me forward...

At the moment this is where I ‘sit' on the subject…I always hold what I believe lightly and try to always stay open and teachable to the Voice of the Lord.
I never expect anyone to see things as I do, and I am pleasantly surprised when on the rare occasion someone does!! :D
 

Marymog

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Obviously no one , however much they may study the scriptures can say “ I KNOW”.
We each have in our ‘bag’ that which we believe that Good has shown to us. :)

If scripture is The Truth then why are we never allowed to KNOW The Truth? It seems to me that you are saying we will never know The Truth.

Curious Mary
 

Helen

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If scripture is The Truth then why are we never allowed to KNOW The Truth? It seems to me that you are saying we will never know The Truth.

Curious Mary
I presume that you wrote that tongue in cheek and with a smile?
Yes, obviously we have come to know the Truth...and been translated from darkness into light. But it goes without saying that not one of us can say that " we" have every jot and tittle of the scripture revelation and message perfectly correct.
I have often prayed " Lord deliver me for ever thinking that I have learned all there is to know from the depth of Your Word.."
People who believe that they have "arrived" at all the truth there is to know..have stopped- "growing in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." 1 Pet.
That in my book, is why the Bible is a living book...it never grows old , layer over layer of truth- nuggets to be revealed.

...in His Victory....
 
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101G

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I believe that the man child ,represents the overcomers. And I believe that the 144,000 represent the overcoming man child...... ( the Head and the body) Those that follow the Lamb wherever He goes…no separation , moving ‘as one' . And a type of all Israel both natural and spiritual.
Thanks for the post. always speak your position. even if someone agree fine, or if they have a different view, that's fine also. now your post above is an interesting one, which I agree that the the Lord Jesus is the "HEAD" of his church the "Body/overcomes". nothing wrong with that, for we are overcomes, in him his body, and he is the head of the church, can't argue against that. I do appreciate your view. not saying that you're right, or wrong in your assessment of the child, (which is good), but consider this. Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of Israel, the church in the wilderness)
Dragon = a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power.
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, or angelic).
Sun = gospel, or word of God
Moon = Mosaic Law
again not saying that anyone views are right or wrong, I believe that the bible interpret itself, unless it out right tells us. remember Revelation is symbolic. I'm going to make my understanding as short as possible. if one keep one hand on chapter 12 here, and the other on Matthews chapter 2 we will see the vision clearly. the woman is a church that was in the wilderness, the remnant, supportive scripture, Acts 7:38 "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us". the remnant of this church came out of the tribe of Judah which God never divorced, only put away, whom is of the kingly line that Christ to come. she was clothed in righteousness/Sun, which is the Gospel vs the moon, which is symbolic of the mosaic law. supportive Scripture, Psalms 119:105 "NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path". which Israel walked by, a dim light until now the gospel shine in their hearts. the dragon here is symbolic of king Herod, dragon represent EVIL, and this dragon was red, which symbolize "blood". so we have a bloody dragon, which king Herod was when he killed all the babies 2 years and under in trying to kill the baby Jesus. just keep your hands on Matthews chapter 2. in Rev 12 the dragon drew the third part of the stars of heaven. another word for drew is gathered. supportive scripture, Matthew 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born". king Herod gathered/drew a third. in Rev 12 it says a 3rd of the stars in heaven. symbolic, star means a human or angelic messenger. lets see these 3rd of messengers/stars who had a heavenly message, that king Herod gathered/drew unto himself. Matthew 2:4 "And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born. 5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, 6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. 7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also". 1/3rd are the chief priests, and the 2/3rd are the scribes, and the 3/3rd are the wise men. there are our third of stars.
again not saying that you're wrong, but this vision that John saw was the START of the NT church. yes, the HEAD is the Lord Jesus as the prophet Isaiah stated, Isaiah 28:16 "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste". and the apostle Peter confirmed, 1 Peter 2:6 "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded". so the child is the Head of the Church, which a body he will add, and doing so as we speak.
 

Helen

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to 101G

Thanks for yours...
you said :-Quote " but consider this. Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of Israel, the church in the wilderness)
Dragon = a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power.
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, or angelic).
Sun = gospel, or word of God
Moon = Mosaic Law"

And I have no argument with that at all. except maybe the last one..not that it matters..
So do you think that all types ,shadows, and symbols in the word are all held fast ?
I believe just like scripture , God speaks in different ways for different things...every type/symbol has more than one meaning..as does scripture..it is layered.
We know that Joseph was a type of Jesus , but- there is never a "perfect type" of Jesus anywhere from Gen ..through.. All types break down along the way.
I 'also' believe , along with your quote above,,,that the Sun represents The Son in scripture, and the Moon represents the reflection of Him..His Church. ( .."and the moon shall be turned into blood".. the great tribulation...not so much the Mosaic law, but His Church..)
I agree with you..God is never interested in the right and wrong, He is only ever interested in bringing forth life.
The issue itself is never the issue, life and relationship is always the issue at stake.
Just my two cents. :)

 

keras

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Revelation 12 passage describes a woman, a child, and a dragon. A simple reading of the text instantly brings to mind Mary, Christ, and Satan, who are certainly significant, prophetic types, but there is more to it than that.

The sign represents those individuals in a historical context, but also as larger, corporate entities. Biblical scholars have always understood the woman to represent Mary as an individual and corporately: the nation of Israel. Likewise, the dragon clearly represents Satan as an individual and also the entire world system opposed to God. However, while the same scholars have observed that the male child is a symbol of Christ, they've missed the pattern. Just as the woman and dragon have corporate meanings, the male child does, too - it is the collective body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12
 
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101G

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to 101G

Thanks for yours...
you said :-Quote " but consider this. Symbolic Meaning to understand chapter 12
Woman = represent a Church, (the remnant of Israel, the church in the wilderness)
Dragon = a person, be it representative of a political, or religious power.
Red in this chapter = blood
Stars = messenger, (human, or angelic).
Sun = gospel, or word of God
Moon = Mosaic Law"

And I have no argument with that at all. except maybe the last one..not that it matters..
So do you think that all types ,shadows, and symbols in the word are all held fast ?
I believe just like scripture , God speaks in different ways for different things...every type/symbol has more than one meaning..as does scripture..it is layered.
We know that Joseph was a type of Jesus , but- there is never a "perfect type" of Jesus anywhere from Gen ..through.. All types break down along the way.
I 'also' believe , along with your quote above,,,that the Sun represents The Son in scripture, and the Moon represents the reflection of Him..His Church. ( .."and the moon shall be turned into blood".. the great tribulation...not so much the Mosaic law, but His Church..)
I agree with you..God is never interested in the right and wrong, He is only ever interested in bringing forth life.
The issue itself is never the issue, life and relationship is always the issue at stake.
Just my two cents. :)
Good, see, we might not agree with everything, but we can come to a consensus.
U "asked, "So do you think that all types ,shadows, and symbols in the word are all held fast ?". let me answer by scripture, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope".
#2. U said, "We know that Joseph was a type of Jesus , but- there is never a "perfect type" of Jesus anywhere from Gen ..through". because there is only one perfect God. types are called types, because they're not perfects..... (smile).
#3. U said, "not so much the Mosaic law, but His Church..)". did you read my response as to the moon is symbolic of. Psalms 119:105 "NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path". Israel walked/lived by the Law of Moses, which was a dim light, a shadow. just as the Sun is greater in light giving than, as U say, a reflection.
But remember Revelation is symbolic, not a representation.

GOOD work, I like this.
 
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101G

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Revelation 12 passage describes a woman, a child, and a dragon. A superficial reading of the text instantly brings to mind Mary, Christ, and Satan, who are certainly significant, prophetic types, but there is more to it than that.

The sign represents those individuals in a historical context, but also as larger, corporate entities. Biblical scholars have always understood the woman to represent Mary as an individual and corporately: the nation of Israel. Likewise, the dragon clearly represents Satan as an individual and also the entire world system opposed to God. However, while the same scholars have observed that the male child is a symbol of Christ, they've missed the pattern. Just as the woman and dragon have corporate meanings, the male child does, too - it is the collective body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12
GINOLJC, to keras, symbolic of Mary. see, she came from the linage of David. she gave birth to the Messiah, just follow the vision in Matthews chapter 2. it's a vision to John the Start of the Church. this vision is what the word said, chapter 1 verse 19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter". just like chapter 11 of the two witness is past tense, not future. the two witness are the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist MINISTRY
 

keras

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GINOLJC, to keras, symbolic of Mary. see, she came from the linage of David. she gave birth to the Messiah, just follow the vision in Matthews chapter 2. it's a vision to John the Start of the Church. this vision is what the word said, chapter 1 verse 19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter". just like chapter 11 of the two witness is past tense, not future. the two witness are the Lord Jesus and John the Baptist MINISTRY
So, we have no future? Just this ole world keeps rolling along?

No, you are wrong; some prophecy is written in the past tense because of the surety that it will be fulfilled. We know this as what is describe has not happened yet. The cosmic signs for example are well described and can and will be literally fulfilled.
 

101G

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So, we have no future? Just this ole world keeps rolling along?

No, you are wrong; some prophecy is written in the past tense because of the surety that it will be fulfilled. We know this as what is describe has not happened yet. The cosmic signs for example are well described and can and will be literally fulfilled.
GINOLJC, to keras. no you have it in error, salvation began, as what was promised to all in the prophets afore time by God, our saviour, which is now being manifested even as we speak. the birth of the messiah was foretold to come, and chapter 12 vision confirm this. no the future is grand. A. we're are redeemed because of his birth. B. all our sins that are past are forgiven, because of his birth. C. now we have a right to the tree of life, because of his birth. D. also we received the promise of the Holy Spirit because of his birth. D. his life for our lives, because of his birth.........must I go on. understand, his birth is the pivotal point in history. without his birth we would have no future. understand keras, HE IS PROPHECY FULFILLED. that's good news, other wise called the gospel.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. if chapter 12 is the birth of Christ, the head of the church. the preaching of the gospel is beginning of his ministry, chapter 11. I believe chapter 11 is the witness of his ministry, the gospel.
John was sent to be the witness to this ministry, hence the two witness. these witness, concrete in nature, are witness to Spiritual things promised afore in the prophets of old times. this I believe is not a future event. these two witness have come and their witness are in full force today.
 

keras

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GINOLJC, to keras. no you have it in error, salvation began, as what was promised to all in the prophets afore time by God, our saviour, which is now being manifested even as we speak. the birth of the messiah was foretold to come, and chapter 12 vision confirm this. no the future is grand. A. we're are redeemed because of his birth. B. all our sins that are past are forgiven, because of his birth. C. now we have a right to the tree of life, because of his birth. D. also we received the promise of the Holy Spirit because of his birth. D. his life for our lives, because of his birth.........must I go on. understand, his birth is the pivotal point in history. without his birth we would have no future. understand keras, HE IS PROPHECY FULFILLED. that's good news, other wise called the gospel.
Great; we have the good news!
Now for the not so good news; that we must be tried and tested to prove our faith. 1 Peter 4:12, Revelation 13:9-10
 

Helen

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Quoting 101G
" A. we're are redeemed because of his birth. B. all our sins that are past are forgiven, because of his birth. C. now we have a right to the tree of life, because of his birth. D. also we received the promise of the Holy Spirit because of his birth. D. his life for our lives, because of his birth.........must I go on. understand, his birth is the pivotal point in history. without his birth we would have no future....."

Well you are losing me there!! I agree that there would be no redemption without a birth...BUT, without the following 33 years...and sacrifice ✟ the birth would count for nothing...
His birth did not remove sin, His death did. It could only be " by the blood of a Perfect Lamb".
So I don't see His birth as "the pivotal point" , but His amazing sacrifice.
At His birth some saw a star in the sky. But at His death the sun was darkened..the earth trembled and split...it ran right to the Temple, the veil was split in two..not a flimsy net curtain...but a thick and heavy curtain to hide the Most Holy Place. God was breaking down once and for all...the division between Himself and mankind. God was making a BIG statement...
My two cents... :)
 
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101G

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Great; we have the good news!
Now for the not so good news; that we must be tried and tested to prove our faith. 1 Peter 4:12, Revelation 13:9-10
GINOLJC, to keras, I thank my Lord and saviour for your respond. this is the GOOD NEWS, 2 Timothy 1:8 & 8 "Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began". this was a done deal before the world began........ NOW THAT'S GOOD NEWS.

be blessed.
 

101G

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" A. we're are redeemed because of his birth.
GINOLJC, to ByGrace, first thanks for the post.
A. yes, but because of his death. Ephesians 1:7 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace". Colossians 1:14 "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"
B.
B. all our sins that are past are forgiven, because of his birth.
yes again, but by his DEATH. Romans 3:23-26 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus".
C.
now we have a right to the tree of life, because of his birth.
again yes, but by his death. Isaiah 61:3 "To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified".
D.
his birth is the pivotal point in history. without his birth we would have no future....."
True, but without his death, he wouldn't have rose, which is our future, for if he wouldn't have gotten up our hope would be in vain.
So I don't see His birth as "the pivotal point" , but His amazing sacrifice.
again correct, because without his birth there would be no sacrifice, his death, scripture, Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me".
My two cents
now some change, the pivotal point is his death on the cross. this is where U and I get a new life, old things pass away. if any man (male or female) be in christ is a new creation. so without his birth and his death we have no hope. but he is alive, and because he is lives, (the only one with immortality) we live in him.

be blessed.
 

FHII

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I presume that you wrote that tongue in cheek and with a smile?
Yes, obviously we have come to know the Truth...and been translated from darkness into light. But it goes without saying that not one of us can say that " we" have every jot and tittle of the scripture revelation and message perfectly correct.
I have often prayed " Lord deliver me for ever thinking that I have learned all there is to know from the depth of Your Word.."
People who believe that they have "arrived" at all the truth there is to know..have stopped- "growing in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." 1 Pet.
That in my book, is why the Bible is a living book...it never grows old , layer over layer of truth- nuggets to be revealed.

...in His Victory....


In short, knowing the truth, understanding the truth and fully comphrending all the facets of the truth are different things.

I have read the entire Bible. I know what it says. I do not understand it all and father away from comphrending it all.

Peter said that he would stir up our pure mind by way of remembrance. That's pretty profound! The mastery of the truth is in us. It just has to be brought back to us.
 

101G

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************************** THE TWO WITNESS *****************************

John the baptist, and the Lord Jesus the Christ.

GINOLJC, to all. in understanding God's Revelation to John, and to us, is to understand the pivotal points in this book. chapter 12 of his (the Christ) birth and chapter 11 of his (the Christ) ministry, and DEATH. of course this is my belief. I would like to take theses witness one step at a time and fully discuss them.
Witness #1. I'm using the color blue for John, because he used WATER to baptized with. witness #1. John the Baptizer. first, we must understand how we got to him as a witness. Revelation 11:4 "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth". we will give this descriptive answer of these two witness from the book of Zechariah, read chapter 3 and 4. to make it short and to the point, Zechariah 4:14 "Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth". clearly these two men are anointed with the Holy Spirit, to be empowered to do the same things that their counterpart or the one's they was in analogy to, Moses and Elijah. let me make it clear that the two witness was NOT, let me say it again, was NOT Moses and Elijah, but only an analogy, or symbolic to. I hope that's clear. second, we need to understand the definition of witness here in Revelation 11. it is the Greek word, G3144 μάρτυς martus (mar'-tïs) n.
1. a witness.
2. (literally) judicially.
3. (by analogy) a “martyr” (meaning witness).
KJV: martyr, record, witness
notice definition #3. martyr, when used as an analogy as here in Revelation 11 means: a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs. one who can or does aver, what he has seen or heard or knows. the word aver here means to declare positively. one cannot witness accurately to something if they had not seen, or heard it.

Knowing all of this, we can now examine the two witness correctly. Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth”. God gave "power" unto his two witness. and Power here is "authority". but some might say Power is not in the verse, correct, but we can deduce that it is, Power/authority, coming from the bible itself, there are two word in the Gree that translate in our English language as "POWER", G1411, dunamis, (MIGHT), and G1849, exousia, (authority). that's the one we want, scripture, Matthew 21:23-26 "And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet”. so John's and the Lord Jesus authority is from God, let's back up John's authority "FROM" God. John the baptist was sent "from" God, not just sent "by" God to be a witness, but sent "FROM" God, big difference. scripture, John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John". so clearly it was of God and not of men. so his power/authority was of God. back to Revelation 11, "and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth”. prophesy, means to preach. scripture, Matthew 3:1 "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea". what was John Preaching? verse 2 "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".
at this point we will give the function of the two witness. 1. preaching (repentance) and Baptizing (for the remission of sins). so that one may receive the gift, the KINGDOM of God, THE HOLY GHOST. so the two witness in the EARTH today is 1. preaching the Gospel. and 2. Baptism = 3. SALVATION. I know that there will be disagreement, but I'm prepared for all. REPENTANCE, and BAPTISM are our two WITNESS in the EARTH REALMS today. and they witness today. both preach, with fire, and both baptized with water. John (man) preached with fire, (the word of God the Gospel). and he baptized with water (NATURAL WATER). the Lord Jesus (God) preached with fire, (the word of God the Gospel), and baptize with with the Holy Ghost (LIVING WATER). now I know many would say, the "FIRE", yes, the fire is the Word of God. let the bible interpret itself, Jeremiah 5:14 "Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them". this is how they devour, scripture, Revelation 11:5 "And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed". the word of God is "FIRE" in the mouth of his two witness. yes the Lord Jesus used fire also, his preaching. Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire". let's see the PREACHING of the Lord Jesus as was with John, Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". so the preaching of the gospel leads one to repentance and hence, one is washed, (water), and (Spirit), (water death), (Spirit alive). scripture, Romans 6:4 "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life". and baptism fills all righteousness. Matthew 3:13 "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him".
this is enough for now but we'll pick back up on John with more evidence of his being a witness of the two.
be blessed.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. I know that some might think by now, and maybe have hear that Baptism don't save. let me be clear about water baptism, water baptism don't save, but the obedience to it do. scripture, John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him". John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him". question what words are to be kept? in conjunction with our topic of baptism? answer, Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". this is an ordnance, a command. the apostle Peter made it very clear. 1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ". and that conscience is REPENTANCE, a change of mind. if you have not repented, baptism is just a wet dream. baptism saves because of one's obedience to the FAITH which is in Christ Jesus. without FAITH you cannot PLEASE GOD (Hebrews 11:6). so water baptism is a outward witness to the Faith one have in Christ Jesus who will save us (for we have his promise, and he don't lie). and to repent is an inward witness to the LOVE of God in obedience to the Faith. so baptism is Faith and Love of God in Christ Jesus. conclusion "baptism is a witness", and it was John who baptized.

next time more on John as one of the two witness.
 

101G

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John, one of the two witness.
His Anointing to witness. to understand this we need to go back to the book of Zechariah chapter 4. the Anointing Oil is the Holy Spirit. verses 11-14. "Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth".

#1, (John the baptizer), Scripture: Luke 1:11 "And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord". so here in this scripture, not only do we have the Anointing of John with the Holy Spirit, but also the connection with the spirit of Elijah, not the man himself but in, in, his spirit. and as Zechariah said "that stand by the Lord of the whole earth", Luke states, "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord". Connection #1. is made.

Connection #2. John and Elijah. when our Lord took a few of his disciples up on a mountain top and was transfigured before them, they a conversation on the way down. scripture, Matthew 17:10-13 "And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? 11 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. 12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist". one cannot get any plainer that that. question, "can the Lord Jesus lie?" God forbid NO. well then he just told us who was the Elijah to come. Connection #2 Made.

Connection #3. John and Elijah, "Prepare way Lord, or the LORD". Isaiah 40:3 "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God". Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts". the fulfillment of both prophecies. Luke 7:24-27 "And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts. 26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee". again can the Lord Jesus Lie? no.
connection #3 is made.

next time the Lord Jesus