The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity

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epostle1

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Ambassadors indeed, which is not a ruling dominating dictatorship. That's a preconception and such a structure would never last. I'd be glad to discuss ecclesiology but this isn't the right thread.

I have found no scholarly evidence that Matthew 28:19 is a forgery. Lots of assertions from various cults but no evidence.

"The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity" is an affront to all 3 main branches of Christianity. It's foolish and inflammatory and cannot withstand scrutiny. I'm guessing it's a hit-and-run; christiang won't be back.
 
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Marymog

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Is the Trinity a salvation issue?

Will an individual lose their salvation if they don't believe in the Trinity?
The Trinity (Holy Spirit, God, Jesus) is One.

So it seems to me that you are asking if I don't believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit will I loose my salvation. However, I may be misunderstanding you.

So my answer is yes, it is a salvation issue.

Love, Mary
 

Marymog

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I would say "show me" but I know you can't so I won't even ask.
I love you Job so I will answer the un-asked question:

Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men but to God.

Hope that helps you in your walk to The Truth.

Love, Mary
 

Marymog

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It doesn't but thanks anyway.
So when Peter said, 'Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men but to God' that doesn't tell you that God and the Holy Spirit are One?

Peter misspoke?

Curious Mary
 
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101G

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Correct Peter didn't misspoke, more revelation, Acts 5:5-10 "And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband".

the Spirit of the Lord is the SAME HOLY SPIRIT. supportive scripture, 1 Peter 1:10 & 11 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow".

the Holy Spirit is God, for God is a Spirit, and he's Holy. the Spirit of the Lord is God, and the Spirit of Christ is the SAME SPIRIT.

so Peter didn't misspoke, in either instance....... (smile).
 
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Marymog

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This study goes over the scriptures and doctrinal reasons that contradict the doctrine of the trinity, along with the manuscript evidence proving the forgery of the two trinitarian verses. The study can be found in English here The Deception of the Teaching of the Trinity | Wisdom of God or in Spanish here El Engaño de la Enseñanza de la Trinidad | Sabiduria de Dios . Let us begin a discussion on this matter here.
Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit . . . You have not lied to men but to God.

Love Mary
 

KBCid

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So when Peter said, 'Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men but to God' that doesn't tell you that God and the Holy Spirit are One?
Peter misspoke? Curious Mary

No it tells me that it is God himself and not a unity of separate beings. Consider this scripture;
1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

You are a being with a spirit breathed into your body by God so, are you two separate beings acting as one?
God's holy spirit is God just as your spirit is you. The temple that your spirit inhabits and controls is also a temple that God can inhabit at will. In the end he will be all in all.
 
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Marymog

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No it tells me that it is God himself and not a unity of separate beings. Consider this scripture;
1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

You are a being with a spirit breathed into your body by God so, are you two separate beings acting as one?
God's holy spirit is God just as your spirit is you. The temple that your spirit inhabits and controls is also a temple that God can inhabit at will. In the end he will be all in all.
Welcome KBCid to the conversation.

Let's quote the entire passage instead of just part of it: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

When you read the entire passage it talks about how GOD revealed something to them by HIS SPIRIT. God didn't reveal it to them. His Spirit did. Two separate beings!

Who/what is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father? (John 15:26) How can something proceed from the Father if it is not a separate being?

Would you not agree that our temple (body) is the temple of the Holy Ghost? And the Holy Ghost is in us?

I agree with you that "God's holy spirit is God". However, scripture CLEARLY tells us they are separate. I would rework your statement like this: "God's Holy Spirit is God".

You are right. God breathed spirit (a soul) into my body. Who gave God his Spirit? Where did it come from? It seems to me you are suggesting that Gods Spirit and my spirit (soul) are the same beings or equivalent? But maybe I am misunderstanding you.

I have one favor to ask of you: Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption and remember that no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Love, Mary


 

Helen

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How many "trinity" threads do we need anyway lol

I agree wholeheartedly!!
One ' proves it one way' and someone else another....yet for every single one of us , it is not proof, it is nothing more than an opinion on each ones interpretation of scripture.
Everything, is only and ever , filtered through our own belief system.
Shout as loud as you like that you ' know' ...But God and God only knows.
Three in one , or One as three, or one ,and one alone...
.If we have trust and faith in His integrity and nature...trinity or otherwise, changes nothing at all in our ultimate salvation!
The Truth is...GOD IS!!! And the rest is ' by faith'.
I happen to believe with all my heart that in the great 'wrap-up' at the end...ALL of mankind will be saved....in their own order...Adam got us into this , the second Adam got us out.
I believe that...I hope that I have heard from the Lord rightly.
It IS my belief system....BUT it is my OPINION. Just as the trinity , true or otherwise, is an opinion , chosen by the way we each interpret scripture.
This Site does tend to be overloaded with people that have put great emphasis on "I am right, and you are wrong". ( which comes across as- I am wise and you are stupid...I and only I have seen the truth )
I look for, but I don't see much humility in that ....and very little of the spirit of "preferring my brother" ....more of a ...Who can scramble highest to be top dog.
✝️. ✝️. ✝️

 
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KBCid

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Welcome KBCid to the conversation.
Let's quote the entire passage instead of just part of it: But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
When you read the entire passage it talks about how GOD revealed something to them by HIS SPIRIT. God didn't reveal it to them. His Spirit did. Two separate beings!

Is your spirit a separate being from you? We were created in the image of God, our spirit is us, we are spirits inhabiting the temple of the physical body. When God created mankind in his image he formed only two and the twain shall be one. There is no separate being who is considered the holy spirit otherwise we would have been created as a trinity.

Who/what is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father? (John 15:26) How can something proceed from the Father if it is not a separate being? Would you not agree that our temple (body) is the temple of the Holy Ghost? And the Holy Ghost is in us? I agree with you that "God's holy spirit is God". However, scripture CLEARLY tells us they are separate. I would rework your statement like this: "God's Holy Spirit is God".

John 4:God is a Spirit...
Do you believe that God cannot personally inhabit each of the temples he made?
Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
Gods spirit and presence are the same thing. It is a common biblical translation error to personify things... consider this passage;

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Do you believe that the spirit of error is a separate being too? or maybe this one;

1 Corinthians 2:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

God describes things quite well here;
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh....

God will pour out his spirit and who but God is holy? In God's own words I will let it be said as it was written;

2 Cor 6:16 ....for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You are right. God breathed spirit (a soul) into my body. Who gave God his Spirit? Where did it come from? It seems to me you are suggesting that Gods Spirit and my spirit (soul) are the same beings or equivalent? But maybe I am misunderstanding you.

We were created in the image of the Father and Son "Let us make man in our image".
In the same way that God gave birth to his Son by separating a part of his spirit so did he do with us and he shows us from the beginning that Eve was a part of the first lone man Adam who was separated from him to be his companion.
Our spirits are the same as God since they were part of God to begin with;
Genesis 2: Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life....
God didn't just say let man live, he personally gave from his own spirit to form us. This is why we are all considered gods and children of the most high;
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Here is a further explanation that appears to have the right understanding;
Reasons “Holy Spirit” is one of the names of God or the Gift of God
1. The “breath” of God and the “spirit” of God are synonymous terms, a point that is easily seen in the original text, but not always so obviously translated (Job 4:9, 27:3; Ps. 33:6, 104:29 and 30; John 3:8; 2 Thess. 2:8;). The breath of God is not a distinct person from God any more than the breath of a human could be a person distinct from that person.
2. The “spirit of God” is synonymous with the hand and the finger of God, which can be seen from the fact that, referring to the same thing, they are used interchangeably (Job 26:13-KJV; Ps. 8:3; Matt. 12:28; Luke 11:20). This is strong evidence that “the Holy Spirit” is the name of God when His power is in operation. If God and “the Holy Spirit” were two co-equal “Persons,” it would not make sense to understand “the Holy Spirit” as the “hand” of God. As a man’s hand and finger are subordinate and submissive to the will of a man, so the spirit of God is subordinate to the will of God. As what is done by the hand of a man is done by the man himself, so what is done by the spirit of God is done by God Himself.
Reasons “Holy Spirit” is one of the names of God or his Gift | BiblicalUnitarian.com
 
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Marymog

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Is your spirit a separate being from you? We were created in the image of God, our spirit is us, we are spirits inhabiting the temple of the physical body. When God created mankind in his image he formed only two and the twain shall be one. There is no separate being who is considered the holy spirit otherwise we would have been created as a trinity.



John 4:God is a Spirit...
Do you believe that God cannot personally inhabit each of the temples he made?
Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
Gods spirit and presence are the same thing. It is a common biblical translation error to personify things... consider this passage;

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Do you believe that the spirit of error is a separate being too? or maybe this one;

1 Corinthians 2:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

God describes things quite well here;
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh....

God will pour out his spirit and who but God is holy? In God's own words I will let it be said as it was written;

2 Cor 6:16 ....for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.



We were created in the image of the Father and Son "Let us make man in our image".
In the same way that God gave birth to his Son by separating a part of his spirit so did he do with us and he shows us from the beginning that Eve was a part of the first lone man Adam who was separated from him to be his companion.
Our spirits are the same as God since they were part of God to begin with;
Genesis 2: Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life....
God didn't just say let man live, he personally gave from his own spirit to form us. This is why we are all considered gods and children of the most high;
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Here is a further explanation that appears to have the right understanding;
Reasons “Holy Spirit” is one of the names of God or the Gift of God
1. The “breath” of God and the “spirit” of God are synonymous terms, a point that is easily seen in the original text, but not always so obviously translated (Job 4:9, 27:3; Ps. 33:6, 104:29 and 30; John 3:8; 2 Thess. 2:8;). The breath of God is not a distinct person from God any more than the breath of a human could be a person distinct from that person.
2. The “spirit of God” is synonymous with the hand and the finger of God, which can be seen from the fact that, referring to the same thing, they are used interchangeably (Job 26:13-KJV; Ps. 8:3; Matt. 12:28; Luke 11:20). This is strong evidence that “the Holy Spirit” is the name of God when His power is in operation. If God and “the Holy Spirit” were two co-equal “Persons,” it would not make sense to understand “the Holy Spirit” as the “hand” of God. As a man’s hand and finger are subordinate and submissive to the will of a man, so the spirit of God is subordinate to the will of God. As what is done by the hand of a man is done by the man himself, so what is done by the spirit of God is done by God Himself.
Reasons “Holy Spirit” is one of the names of God or his Gift | BiblicalUnitarian.com
Dear Sir,

Yes, my spirit is separate of me. That is why it will go to heaven and my body will rot in the ground.

Either answer my my objections with logic and scripture or move on.

You didn't answer any of my objections or back them up with scripture. You just rambled on with more twisted scripture. How sad for you. For 1,500+ years Christianity has believed and taught the concept of The Trinity.

Are you saying God deceived man for 1,500+ years?

This website used to have a policy of reprimanding anyone disagreeing with The Trinity. I guess they have decided that The Trinity is not worth defending.

Curious Mary
 

KBCid

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Dear Sir,
Yes, my spirit is separate of me. That is why it will go to heaven and my body will rot in the ground.
Either answer my my objections with logic and scripture or move on.
You didn't answer any of my objections or back them up with scripture. You just rambled on with more twisted scripture. How sad for you. For 1,500+ years Christianity has believed and taught the concept of The Trinity.
Are you saying God deceived man for 1,500+ years?
This website used to have a policy of reprimanding anyone disagreeing with The Trinity. I guess they have decided that The Trinity is not worth defending. Curious Mary

Your body will be resurrected just as Christ was.
The holy ghost / presence of God is only in you if God chooses to be in it but as it is written there will be few that find the right path and many who will be told that he never knew them.
Twisted scripture? Do you think scripture was written in English? Translators have been twisting scripture for quite some time but, it is your choice to believe in them.
Christ sent his apostles out to the world over 2000 yrs ago why has the trinity concept only been around for 1500?
Of course you also bypassed my scriptural point about mankind being created in the image of God and that there was only two formed (twain) not three. No trinity in the image of God. That's ok I get that you don't want to question the traditions that you have become accustomed to. (so much for your "Curious Mary" thing.)
God doesn't deceive man that is satans job and as the god of this world he and his angels are active at all times.
God gave a warning about adding or taking away from his word. Have you ever considered why? If his word was protected by him then none could ever alter it and there would be no reason for him to give a warning but he did give the warning knowing that there would be those who would change it to fit their intent and they will receive the plagues promised.
If this website is a catholic / trinity based site I would happily move on to another site but there was nothing said in the rules about accepting that belief system or get out. Ask a moderator about it and if there is such a site control then have them let me know.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, 1 Thessalonians 5:16-21 "Rejoice evermore. 17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. 19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good".
Doctrines are man made, (which suppose to be bible based). but not all doctrine are such. as the scripture states "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good". if one believe that their doctrine is good .... then hold fast to it, unless reproof". for all scripture are given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". now if one's doctrine is reproof, then it's up to the individual to stand corrected. there is nothing to be ashamed about if one is corrected. the shame only come if one gets to the judgment seat of Christ and find out that the doctrine that they believe in is in error. if both who is at odds have the same Holy Spirit, I'm sure he, the Spirit, will not let us stay in ignorance. understand it's not about who's right and who's wrong. no, it's about finding out the truth. if what I believe is true then it will stand the test of scriptures. if not, I rejoice in the fact that now I understand the truth. the Lord Jesus said, " Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me". I say search the scriptures, and if the doctrine I believe in, it will stand the test of the scriptures. for every man's work will be tested by FIRE, meaning the word of God. 1 Corinthians 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is". so one don't have to argue about any scripture, the Lord will reveal it to you. but hear this, 1 Corinthians 3:14 "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire". the same fire that suffer you loos is the same fire that reprove, and yet saves. because one have been reproved, meaning they NOW KNOW THE TRUTH.
 

epostle1

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Your body will be resurrected just as Christ was.
The holy ghost / presence of God is only in you if God chooses to be in it but as it is written there will be few that find the right path and many who will be told that he never knew them.
Twisted scripture? Do you think scripture was written in English? Translators have been twisting scripture for quite some time but, it is your choice to believe in them.
Christ sent his apostles out to the world over 2000 yrs ago why has the trinity concept only been around for 1500?
Nonsense. That's what your cult teaches you and they are wrong.
The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." "name of"-singular, not "names of"-plural.

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Corinthians 13:14, Hebrews 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

The heresiarch Arius taught that Christ was a creature made by God. By disguising his heresy using orthodox or near-orthodox terminology, he was able to sow great confusion in the Church. He was able to muster the support of many bishops, while others excommunicated him.

Arianism was solemnly condemned in 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, which defined the divinity of Christ, and in 381 at the First Council of Constantinople, which defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit. These two councils gave us the Nicene creed, which is recited by both Catholics and Protestants. The doctrine of the Trinity was a development just like every doctrine in the Bible is a development. The councils of Nicae, Constantinople, Ephesus and Chalcedon were convened to deal with heretics. The authoritive verdicts of these councils are accepted by all 3 main branches of Christianity but rejected by cults formed in the last 200 years, which amounts to rehashed heresies of the first 5 centuries.

Jehovah's Witnesses are modern day Arians.


Of course you also bypassed my scriptural point about mankind being created in the image of God and that there was only two formed (twain) not three. No trinity in the image of God. That's ok I get that you don't want to question the traditions that you have become accustomed to. (so much for your "Curious Mary" thing.)
In seeking to understand the traditional family, Christians should keep in mind that not only are individual persons created in the image of God, but so is the family itself. The human family is the closest analogy that mankind will ever come to concretely understanding the Blessed Trinity.

The creeds teach that while there is one God, He exists in three distinct persons. The bible, on the other hand, reveals that man is made in the 'image of God'. From these two truths, therefore, we can acknowledge that the complete image of God is found in the Triune understanding of Him.

This understanding of His Triune nature is reflected by the human family whose personal relationships approach the likeness of the Trinity. There are multiple demonstrations of this truth.

Consider the unity of the Trinity which is reflected in the unity of the family. Or the "family of persons" which is found in both. The persons of the Trinity share the 'same substance ' while a human family becomes one flesh: wife with husband and parents with children.

There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son."
The Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as "love".
The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)
There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son."

In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person 'proceeds' from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love 'proceeding' or 'coming from' the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.
The human family has a rather striking parallel to this dynamic. The ultimate act of intimacy in a marriage mirrors the eternal exchange of love between the first two persons of the Trinity.
And like the eternal or continual procession of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, the act of love between a man and a woman causes a 'procession' of another human person (i.e. the birth of a child).

God doesn't deceive man that is satans job and as the god of this world he and his angels are active at all times.
God gave a warning about adding or taking away from his word. Have you ever considered why? If his word was protected by him then none could ever alter it and there would be no reason for him to give a warning but he did give the warning knowing that there would be those who would change it to fit their intent and they will receive the plagues promised.
That warning only applies to the book of Revelation, not to a Bible that didn't yet exist.
If this website is a catholic / trinity based site I would happily move on to another site but there was nothing said in the rules about accepting that belief system or get out. Ask a moderator about it and if there is such a site control then have them let me know.
Appendix:
Origins of the term “Trinity” (term, not doctrine)

The term “Trinity” was first used around the time of the 12th Pope, St. Soter (166-175), and the 13th Pope, St. Eleutherius (175-189). Theophilus was bishop of Antioch, and use the Greek “trias”, which was Latinized into “trinitas” about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time.

Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian ("De pud." c. xxi). In the next century the word is in general use.

why has the trinity concept only been around for 1500?
It could be that your cult must re-write the hard facts of history to force fit it into its system.
 
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Job

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Peter misspoke?
That verse doesn't say believing in the trinity is a salvation issue. Doesn't even hint at it.

You're not being honest. That's not how the Word is sown. Care to try again?
 
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