No scripture supports the Rapture

ScottA · Jun 26, 2017

Job said:
Nobody was speaking in tongues. You altered the wording in that passage. You changed scripture to read the way you wanted it to read.

If you can't see the error in doing that...

Okay, so I can see that you are looking only at the words and not discerning the scripture spiritually...which is why I used the metaphor of tongues. Sorry, from now on I will stick to English.

So, the term "order" simply refers to the order or time of when "each" comes into the world...and therefore, also refers to when "each" person is absent from the body and present with the Lord.

buddyt · Jun 27, 2017

ScottA,keras,job, or anyone and everyone
I read the scriptures to say at the last Trump the Trump of God we will be changed and be in our Spirit Body. I read this in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and relate it to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15. this event leads us into the Lords day. That's the 1000 years we don't have to deal with Satan. This is my understanding of these events. I understand others have other opinions of these times and I respect that but this is my opinion. One thing we can agree on is that the so called Rapture is False Teaching.

Job · Jun 27, 2017

ScottA said:
Okay, so I can see that you are looking only at the words and not discerning the scripture spiritually...

You changed the wording of the scripture thus changing the true interpretation. There's nothing spiritual about that.

Rearranging and changing the wording of the scriptures, rearranges and changes the Gospel.

ScottA · Jun 27, 2017

Job said:
You changed the wording of the scripture thus changing the true interpretation. There's nothing spiritual about that.

Rearranging and changing the wording of the scriptures, rearranges and changes the Gospel.

I have explained what you did not understand, and have explained my explanation, and now explain again: Even Jesus explained scripture and his own words using other words and did not change the meaning. Nor have I changed the meaning.

You need to ask yourself why you will not hear.

Job · Jun 27, 2017

ScottA said:
You need to ask yourself why you will not hear.

I know why.

DPMartin · Jun 27, 2017

ScottA said:
I have explained what you did not understand, and have explained my explanation, and now explain again: Even Jesus explained scripture and his own words using other words and did not change the meaning. Nor have I changed the meaning.

You need to ask yourself why you will not hear.

could it be that Jesus' explanations are sufficient for those who believe what Jesus says? and need no interpretation by men, because the only true interpretation of scripture is Jesus, what He says what He does and all that He has fulfilled, according to the Father's satisfaction. The Truth of the Word of God to man, and the sons of man, is the Word of God revealed in Christ to men.

________________________________________

I could be mistaken here but, it seems there is the belief amongst those who don't know any better that the bible is the Christian God, and seek to use what is in it to justify themselves, what they do, what they think is right and wrong, so on and so forth, to those that are Christian and anyone else willing to listen, and what they don't know is it's the Presence of the Living God that Justifies, not the documentation of some one else's relationship with the Lord God through Jesus Christ.

there is also the "happy to believers" who are not happy with the Truth of God as it is, and seek to justify with scripture what they are happy to believe. it may be something along the lines of "tickling of the ears".

this may not be the case in this thread, but it sure is showing up on this site. this is not a complaint but more of a warning that it comes continuously until it finds a place to be.

ScottA · Jun 27, 2017

Job said:
I know why.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

Job · Jun 27, 2017

ScottA said:
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

I could do that to but stooping hurts my back.

You have a nice day.

keras · Jun 28, 2017

buddyt said:
ScottA,keras,job, or anyone and everyone
I read the scriptures to say at the last Trump the Trump of God we will be changed and be in our Spirit Body. I read this in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and relate it to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15. this event leads us into the Lords day. That's the 1000 years we don't have to deal with Satan. This is my understanding of these events. I understand others have other opinions of these times and I respect that but this is my opinion. One thing we can agree on is that the so called Rapture is False Teaching.

Glad we agree that any 'rapture to heaven' is false teaching. God has work for us to do here and He promises great blessings to those who stand firm in their faith. Revelation 13:9-10
But you are mistaken when you mix up prophesies as you state above. The change into immortality as per 1 Cor 15:30-36 cannot happen until the Book of life is opened; after the Millennium.
Even the martyred saints raised at Jesus' Return, Revelation 20:4, are just 'brought back to life', just as Lazarus and the saints raised with Jesus were. They died again and there will be death during the Millennium. Isaiah 65:20 Only after the GWT Judgement will all those found worthy, receive eternal life. Revelation 21:4-7

buddyt · Jun 29, 2017

keras
I see nothing in the verses you quote that indicates we are still in flesh body's during the Lords day. Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 I really don't see how any flesh man can gather to the Lord in the AIR. Not in a flesh body, spirit body yes. This is where 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 come in.

I understand we have a difference here but that's OK with me. It's good to get others views and understanding of Fathers word.

keras · Jun 30, 2017

buddyt said:
keras
I see nothing in the verses you quote that indicates we are still in flesh body's during the Lords day. Looking at 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 I really don't see how any flesh man can gather to the Lord in the AIR. Not in a flesh body, spirit body yes. This is where 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 come in.

We have Biblical examples of what I call 'spiritual transportation'. The main one is Acts 8:39 where Philip was transported.
I do not see why those who will be gathered when Jesus Returns, to meet Him in the clouds, [our atmosphere] and then be where His is [in Jerusalem] need or must have new bodies. We know there will be death in the Millennium, Isaiah 65:20 and Bible teaching is clear: only after the GWT judgement, Revelation 20:11-15, is the Book of Life opened and Eternal Life given to all whose names are in that Book.
Even the martyred saints who are 'brought back to life' at the Return. Revelation 20:4, will still die naturally, as Lazarus did. But the second death they will experience has no power over them, because their names ARE written in the Book of Life.

buddyt · Jul 1, 2017

keras
Sorry we don't agree on this.

keras · Jul 1, 2017

buddyt said:
keras
Sorry we don't agree on this.

As this issue is quite important for all who will be here during the things to happen before Jesus Returns, which IS this generation, then we should be clear about when God confers Eternal life.
The prophesies in 1 Cor 15:50-56 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 and elsewhere, do not clearly state when immortality will be given.
But Revelation 20:11-15 and Rev 21:1-7 make it plain that only after the Millennium and the GWT, does this take place.
Rev 21:6-7....I will give water from the Spring of Life as a gift to the Overcomers. This is the Victors heritage and I will be their God and they will be My children.
Please show me where the Bible says anyone receives immortality before that time.
Yes, the martyrs are brought back to life, Rev 20:4, but not immortality yet. And there are other promises of Eternal life for us Christians, that we who keep faithful will receive when our names are found in the Book of Life.

ScottA · Jul 1, 2017

keras said:
Please show me where the Bible says anyone receives immortality before that time.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.

keras · Jul 2, 2017

ScottA said:
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren.

That is the Lord's promise to all who believe in Him. Are you immortal already?
The actual fulfilment of that promise will occur after the Book of life is opened, at the GWT judgement.
1 Peter 1:3-5...our inheritance [eternal life] is reserved in heaven for you... because you put your faith in God, you are under the protection of His power...and your salvation will be revealed at the end of time.
Fairly conclusive, don't you think? Any teaching otherwise is false and unscriptural.

buddyt · Jul 2, 2017

keras said:
As this issue is quite important for all who will be here during the things to happen before Jesus Returns, which IS this generation, then we should be clear about when God confers Eternal life.
The prophesies in 1 Cor 15:50-56 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 and elsewhere, do not clearly state when immortality will be given.
But Revelation 20:11-15 and Rev 21:1-7 make it plain that only after the Millennium and the GWT, does this take place.
Rev 21:6-7....I will give water from the Spring of Life as a gift to the Overcomers. This is the Victors heritage and I will be their God and they will be My children.
Please show me where the Bible says anyone receives immortality before that time.
Yes, the martyrs are brought back to life, Rev 20:4, but not immortality yet. And there are other promises of Eternal life for us Christians, that we who keep faithful will receive when our names are found in the Book of Life.

keras
Revelation 20:11-15 and Revelation 21:1-7 have little to say when this event takes place. It's very simple and easily understood what is written in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians.

keras · Jul 2, 2017

buddyt said:
keras
Revelation 20:11-15 and Revelation 21:1-7 have little to say when this event takes place. It's very simple and easily understood what is written in 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians.

What?
From Revelation 20:11 to 22:15 it is quite clear about when what is described there, takes place: AFTER the Millennium.
Whereas there is no scripture elsewhere that specifies an earlier conferring of immortality. Promises of that reward, yes, but people must prove their faith by enduring until the end. Revelation 13:9-10
And why should any humans become immortal before the New heavens and the New earth? This idea is just another lie born out of the rapture false teaching. Have nothing to do with it.

Copperhead · Jul 3, 2017

buddyt said:
Id like to hear what scriptures those who believe in a Rapture use to support their beliefs.

I would like to say my supporting scripture for the Rapture being False Teaching comes from Ezekiel 13:20-21 For those who understand Gods word you know that this chapter in this book is telling you how unhappy God is with False Teaching. Some of the things being taught include this False belief of Jesus sweeping down to fly you away from the end events.

So please tell me what it is that makes one believe the teachings of man. And have no re guard at all for what our Father has written. I have asked the question many times of Ezekiel chapter 13 in particular these verses . I might say I have never got an explanation.

I am a strong advocate of the Mosaic Law prescription that an issue can only be confirmed on the testimony of two witnesses. For me, that is the OT and the NT.

Check this one out:

Isaiah 26:19-21 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live,
together with my dead body shall they arise.
Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:
for thy dew is as the dew of herbs,
and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers,
and shut thy doors about thee:
hide thyself as it were for a little moment,
until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:
the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.

And then take a look at this:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

"caught up" in Greek is harpazo, or in the Latin Vulgate, Rapturo, from which we get the transliterated word, Rapture.

keras · Jul 3, 2017

Copperhead, neither of your quotes say that God will take the church to heaven.
Isaiah 26:19 refers to the Great White Throne judgement. Revelation 20:11-15
2 Thess 4:15-17 happens at Jesus' Return and His angels gather those who remain to where He is, in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31

But the main reason that I refute the rapture theory, is the many prophesies saying that God's holy people will go to live in all of the holy Land. They are seen there in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7

Copperhead · Jul 3, 2017

Isa 26:19 does? Prove it. There is no reference to judgement except that the Lord is coming out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth. And those that are not destined for punishment are told to hide themselves in their chambers. You know, the chambers that Jesus said He was going to prepare for those that believe?

John 14:2-3 (NKJV) In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

You are not following principled scripture hermeneutics and are allegorizing scripture to the extreme. When the plain sense of scripture makes sense, then seek no other sense. That is Hermeneutics 101.

You are following a maxim in computer science.... if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything.

And who are the holy (means set apart) people that will live in Israel after the Great Tribulation? Primarily Jews who went thru the tribulation and called out for the Lord to rescue them. As per Hosea. These verses clearly show that their rejection of the Messiah will cause Him to return to His place. For Him to return, He had to have left it. And He did when He came and was crucified. Israel's offense was that they denied Him.

Hosea 5:15 - 6:2 (KJV) I will go and return to my place,
till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face:
in their affliction they will seek me early.
1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord:
for he hath torn, and he will heal us;
he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.

Match up this where it says He will return to His place and Isaiah 26 where He is coming out of His place.

And what is the Great Tribulation actually all about? Isaiah made that clear, it is to unleash God's wrath and punish the inhabitants of the earth. Yet, Paul says

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NKJV) For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

No scripture supports the Rapture

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of Bible study guides

Active Member

Writer of Bible study guides

Active Member

Writer of Bible study guides

Well-Known Member

Writer of Bible study guides

Active Member

Writer of Bible study guides

Well-Known Member

Writer of Bible study guides

Well-Known Member

Similar threads