FHII
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Unless I missed something you were last in John 1 trying to show that there were 2 separate gods spoken of in verse one.
The Problem With The Trinity
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Unless I missed something you were last in John 1 trying to show that there were 2 separate gods spoken of in verse one.
oldhermit
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No, not two separate gods, two separate persons of one God. The discussion of Phil 2 begins of post #93.
Copperhead
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101G
Well-Known Member
I asked oldhermit a question #57 which he never got back to. but he did answer this way before he stop talking to me.
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
if the nature of the Lord Jesus is Spirit, then what kind of Spirit, the answer lay in the root of morphe which is G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros), which means,
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something). a division, share
2. a part.
3. (as an adverb) partly, in part.
4. (as a participle) participating (i.e. the act of taking part in).
5. a piece (i.e. a limited portion).
6. (of location) a district.
7. (of livelihood) an occupation (i.e. as ones' portion in life).
8. a portion in Jesus (see John 13:8)
definition #2 gives us the answer. if God is divided then the doctrine of three person is correct or if not then Diversity is correct. let the bible speak, is God divided? Deuteronomy 4:35 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him".
He and Him are single entity. if this was more than one person, it would have been said, "the LORD "THEY" is God, and "there is none else beside Them". no, the scriptures never says this, but what about the "us" and the "our" in Genesis 1:26? answer, God sharing of himself was, was, was, to come, supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come". who was it to come? answer, 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory". but the question still beg who, (the person, which one came). answer, John 3:16 & 17 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved". now the question, when was the son A. begotten, B. given, and C. sent? answer, A. the begetting: Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost". Given: Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". this son that was given is called the "MIGHTY" God, and the "EVERLASTING" FATHER. hold it we have a problem. how is the son that is given called the Father?. scripture don't lie. let's see this truth, Luke 2:10 "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord". a Saviour means ONE, ONE, ONE saviour, and this is the Son correct? lets see, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". now if someone have two separate Saviours then one have just stepped into polytheism.
this is the answer to the Godhead one PERSON shared.
this was his response,
this is the heart of the matter in his doctrine, a unity of person(s) can be a separation or the share. the question is which one. if it's a share then it is a numerical 2 or more which are distinct, but of the same NATURE. the Greek word G243 allos express this fact to a tee. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. here are the clear evidence that the Lord Jesus is the Another of himself in flesh. this is clearly supported by scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". the Greek word "form" here is
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
if the nature of the Lord Jesus is Spirit, then what kind of Spirit, the answer lay in the root of morphe which is G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros), which means,
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something). a division, share
2. a part.
3. (as an adverb) partly, in part.
4. (as a participle) participating (i.e. the act of taking part in).
5. a piece (i.e. a limited portion).
6. (of location) a district.
7. (of livelihood) an occupation (i.e. as ones' portion in life).
8. a portion in Jesus (see John 13:8)
definition #2 gives us the answer. if God is divided then the doctrine of three person is correct or if not then Diversity is correct. let the bible speak, is God divided? Deuteronomy 4:35 "Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him".
He and Him are single entity. if this was more than one person, it would have been said, "the LORD "THEY" is God, and "there is none else beside Them". no, the scriptures never says this, but what about the "us" and the "our" in Genesis 1:26? answer, God sharing of himself was, was, was, to come, supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come". who was it to come? answer, 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory". but the question still beg who, (the person, which one came). answer, John 3:16 & 17 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved". now the question, when was the son A. begotten, B. given, and C. sent? answer, A. the begetting: Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost". Given: Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace". this son that was given is called the "MIGHTY" God, and the "EVERLASTING" FATHER. hold it we have a problem. how is the son that is given called the Father?. scripture don't lie. let's see this truth, Luke 2:10 "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord". a Saviour means ONE, ONE, ONE saviour, and this is the Son correct? lets see, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". now if someone have two separate Saviours then one have just stepped into polytheism.
this is the answer to the Godhead one PERSON shared.
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If God requires man to have two or three witnesses to establish a word or a testimony as Deuteronomy 19:15 says and to judge any one as Deuteronomy 17:6 says, the does that not testify to how Triune God had establish a word in creation, let alone how the Triune God judges any one?
We see Jesus endorsing the same requirement in the N.T. Matthew 18:16
Paul confirms this practice in 2 Corinthians 13:1
If the Father judges no man, but the Son does ( John 5:22-23 )
And John 7:8 testify to having 2 witnesses for a witness to be true for why the Father and the Holy Spirit had to bear witness of the Son being God at His water baptism in Matthew 3:15-17 in order for God's witness of the Son to be true.
So God cannot be a One Person God when by His words, the requirements for men to establish a word or to judge any one, testifies to the 3 Heavenly Witnesses that makes up the One God.
That may be so, but our beliefs must reflect what is in Scripture, not what we imagine. Just as you cannot be your father, nor your father you, God the Father cannot be the Son, neither can God the Son be the Father.
You will not find the idea of the Father becoming the Son, or vice versa in Scripture.
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:3).
Do we see two distinct Persons here? Absolutely.
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
There are those who deny that the ONE GOD JEHOVAH subsist as three persons love to quote Deuteronomy 6:4 in defense of their heresy, apparently, they are unaware that Elohim is used in reference to the Godhead. Remember Elohim is a uni-plural noun. And they also fail to recognize that Jehovah is the sublime title/name for Him who is ONE GOD.
So they quote, “hear O Israel Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah. Remember when LORD is spelled with all capital letters in the Old Testament in the KJV, the printer is telling the English reader that the word behind LORD is YHWH or JEHOVAH. Please observe certain things quite plain in the English and even more clear in the Hebrew text: Jehovah (singular) our Elohim (plural) is one Jehovah (singular).
The one God Jehovah is seen subsisting in the plurality of three or more because the “im” ending of Elohim means three or more, and yet it declares He is one Jehovah even as in over Deuteronomy 4:35.
Another thing to be observed in this passage which so plainly declared the doctrine of the Trinity in such a dynamic way, is the little word “one.” This term speaks of a compound unity, the Hebrew word is “echad” and declares “oneness” in plurality.
But perhaps the most dramatic declaration of the Trinity lies in the manner in which the Scriptures declares that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit ALIKE raised Jesus from among the dead!
In Acts 13:30 as well as Romans 6:4, is plainly stated that God the Father resurrected our dear Savior. Christ was raised from among the dead by the glory of the Father, we read. Yet in John 2:19; 10:17,19, we’re specifically taught that the Son raised Himself from among the dead. For it is said, Jesus answered them, ‘destroy the temple and in three days I will raise it up again,’ and He spoke of the temple of His body and He said: I will raise it up.
And again Christ said: ”Therefore doth my Father love me because I lay down my life that I might take it again. No man takes my life from me, I lay it down by myself, I have the power to lay it down, I have the power to take it up again.”
Yet the apostle Paul and Peter insist that the Savior was resurrected from among the dead by God the Holy Spirit. Christ has once suffered for sins to be put to death by the flesh made alive by the Holy Spirit. How marvelous is the clarity of the testimony of the word of God. Jehovah is indeed ONE, as perfect unity in essence and substance yet He is three as to persons.
To God Be The Glory
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
Not only two but three distinct persons as Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declared at the end of his epistle to the Corinthians:
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen
To God Be The Glory
bbyrd009
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ah, i guess the timing worked out ok then 
. Paul never used the term "persons" in there anywhere, right; and wadr i don't believe that concept can be Quoted anywhere @Jun2u
. Paul never used the term "persons" in there anywhere, right; and wadr i don't believe that concept can be Quoted anywhere @Jun2u wish ida got in earlier here, i def have a problem with this wadr. No persons are involved in God at all imo, even if they are personified for our benefit
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
ah, i guess the timing worked out ok then
Paul did not have to use the term “persons” as it is understood without saying. Already in Genesis 1:26 God said, “Let us (plural) make man in our image, after our likeness...”
God is the Author of the Bible and He has declared there are three persons in the Godhead...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
What is the point of God teaching His children that there are three distinct persons in the Godhead? It does not make sense unless there are three persons indeed!
If not, you are making God a liar and God does not lie.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
‘Are you calling Jesus a liar?’
This was the question my new youth director (I was 15) asked me when I asked him a question......i had just become a Christian and it stopped me in my tracks.....he made it clear, questions were not welcome and that is was his way or the highway. I didnt go back to chuch for years.
This was the question my new youth director (I was 15) asked me when I asked him a question......i had just become a Christian and it stopped me in my tracks.....he made it clear, questions were not welcome and that is was his way or the highway. I didnt go back to chuch for years.
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I would really like everyone's help here, please. I am not one to attempt to pretend to understanding the Godhead, far less to state in any concrete terms what I do believe, except as it is expressed specifically in scripture. Being a holy subject, and a holy God, I am loathe to add conjecture or conclusion to clear points Biblically expressed that is outside or extra-Biblical. So, I have a question. This question is not to goad or promote a particular viewpoint, certainly no-one needs any help from me in offering their ideas, but truly I would appreciate some genuine thoughts on this.
Why is it that I have never seen any trinitarian use 1 Corinthians 8:6 in their defense of their belief? After all, in this passage Paul is speaking of the difference between the monotheistic belief on the Jews, and the pagan beliefs of idols. In verse 4 Paul says, that there is none other God but one. He then adds in verse 5, by way of making a specific contrast in Christian and Jewish theology with the rest of the world, For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) he concludes by stating categorically and in clear plain language the identity of who this one God is that Christians and Jews worshiped... But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Of all scriptures that declare plainly the identity of God, this is one prime example. Yet trinitarians don't use it, and dare I suggest, have difficulty in explaining it. Truly, I would like it explained in trinitarian terms that my own belief in a trinity may then be brought in line with the rest of orthodoxy. But of all scriptures that stall my belief in a trinity as believed by most, even in my own denomination, then this is it. Along with Ephesians 4:6. Surely if Paul believed in a trinity, regardless of what version, here was a grand opportunity to present it. But no. Paul confirms the very same belief Israel had accepted for thousands of years, and which made them different to all the surrounding nations. One God. Who? The Father.
Why is it that I have never seen any trinitarian use 1 Corinthians 8:6 in their defense of their belief? After all, in this passage Paul is speaking of the difference between the monotheistic belief on the Jews, and the pagan beliefs of idols. In verse 4 Paul says, that there is none other God but one. He then adds in verse 5, by way of making a specific contrast in Christian and Jewish theology with the rest of the world, For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) he concludes by stating categorically and in clear plain language the identity of who this one God is that Christians and Jews worshiped... But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Of all scriptures that declare plainly the identity of God, this is one prime example. Yet trinitarians don't use it, and dare I suggest, have difficulty in explaining it. Truly, I would like it explained in trinitarian terms that my own belief in a trinity may then be brought in line with the rest of orthodoxy. But of all scriptures that stall my belief in a trinity as believed by most, even in my own denomination, then this is it. Along with Ephesians 4:6. Surely if Paul believed in a trinity, regardless of what version, here was a grand opportunity to present it. But no. Paul confirms the very same belief Israel had accepted for thousands of years, and which made them different to all the surrounding nations. One God. Who? The Father.
As we all know context is critical. So let's look at the context to see why the emphasis is on ONE God, then see the connection to the Lord Jesus Christ.
THERE ARE MANY FALSE GODS IN ALL PAGAN RELIGIONS
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
FALSE GODS (ACTUALLY DEMONS)ARE MERELY IDOLS
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
AND HE IS REVEALED TO MEN THROUGH THE SON
...and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
This passage was never meant to present the truth of the Trinity. It was meant to show that pagan offerings to idols are worthless, since those idols do not represent any kind of god. They represent devils or demons, as shown in other Scriptures.
At the same time, God the Father is never separated by Paul from the Lord Jesus Christ, and in almost all his epistles, Paul pronounces the benediction of grace and peace from God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ. And this should be critical for your understanding of the Trinity. If Jesus was anything less than God, grace and peace could not be pronounced from Him along with the Father. He is not "a god" as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, since Paul is plainly telling us here that there are no other gods other than the one true God.
Jesus said that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. How could He say that unless He is God? There are in fact numerous verses both in the OT and the NT that clearly establish (1) the deity of Christ and (2) the Godhead as consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I fully agree, and he didn't. But he did present is as a contrasting theological statement pointing to the real identity of the God he worshipped, and regardless of what motivated his discourse, who Paul was introducing to his readers was not a trinity.
Allow me to offer some more verses for your consideration, besides 1 Cor. 8:6 and Eph. 4:6
James 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3 ¶ Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
Who is Paul identifying as God in the above verses?
Consider again 1 Cor. 8:6 in which Paul says that God, the Father, is the source of all things while it is through His Son, that He made and provided all things. Paul's (sic) letter to the Hebrews confirms this, where it says,
Hebrews 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Notice that Paul also says
Eph. 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Who is Jesus the Son of? Who is His Father? The one God, the Father of 1 Cor.8:6 and 2 Cor. 1:3, or the trinity? When Jesus described Himself and confessed as being the Son of God, who was that God?
I have no issues with my personal confession regarding the deity of Christ. I firmly believe Jesus can rightly be worshiped as God. But on what basis do I place such confidence? Because he is a confirmed member of a trinity, or because He is the Son of God? Which do you think is more Biblical and the more sound foundation for my faith? Once one is confirmed, do we need the other?
Now the above I cannot argue with. That there is a Father and that He is God, no doubt. That the Father had a Son, and gave Him to humanity as His Spokesman, no doubt. That there is a holy Spirit, and that each comprises the Godhead, no doubt. But the nature of that composition, is where I believe you and I might disagree, in fact, I would suggest strongly that we ought not be even contemplating the nature and composition of the Godhead because such is not given in scripture, and for us to do so is mere conjecture and guesswork, and in truth, unnecessary to establish the identity of Who we worship, and why.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
It is a common trinitarian tactic to play on the fears and emotions of anyone that questions the trinity. "If you don't believe the trinity, you are lost ... If you don't believe the trinity, you don't belong in the Body of Christ ... If you don't believe the trinity, you are calling God a liar ... If you don't believe the trinity, you are calling Jesus a liar ... If you don't believe the trinity, you are going to hell ...". They are the carnal replies of men.
Baptising them in the name of the father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. So, in your opinion, Jesus was wrong to put all 3 of them on equal footing?
Well, neither can beastiality in the New Testament. Does that make it morally correct?
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
Any believer can pronounce grace and peace to someone. When I say "shalom" to someone, I am pronouncing peace upon them. Sometimes I end a letter or email with "grace and peace to you". It is a prayer that YHWH's grace and peace be upon that person. I don't have to be God in order to do that. Neither does Yeshua. If you choose to believe that I don't have the authority to do that, then certainly Yeshua has the authority to do it since the only true God (Father YHWH) gave him all authority.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
He didn't put all 3 on equal footing. If they were truly his words (which I seriously doubt based on external and internal evidence), he simply cites the Father, Son and holy spirit without stating they are equal or that they are three separate persons. He certainly does not say they are all God or that they are all co-equal or co-eternal as the trinity doctrine states. I have no doubt there is a Father and a Son and a holy spirit.
If those words are truly Yeshua's, then it seems to me the apostles disobeyed him since we never see them using that formula when baptizing. They commonly use, "in the name of the Master Yeshua" (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:16; Acts 10:48; Acts 19:5).
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