Catholics

DPMartin said:

huh? what? your not some nut job are you? why do people take offence for things they don't do, or are not responsible for? you didn't do it, your not an authority in the church that is responsible for its, what, 1600 or so years of history, as a church of the state are you? (it still is, as a matter of fact, the Vatican is its own state, and the Roman Catholic Church is the Church thereof) or are you just looking for a fight, or an excuse to be angry a chance to exercise your God given right to be given to wrath, for what other men do? what's next, your head starts spinning and green slime comes out?

its a simple observation of history, that is true, read your history books even the church itself has such history info, its not derogatory, just true. all organizations such as religions nations (Israel) corporations have ups and downs in their history. what delusional thinking would make you think that the Catholic Church is exempt? doesn't matter what denomination in the case your talking about, Baptists have issues, Lutherans, Calvinists, have issues, and so do the rest, so what. get over it, and stop acting like you've just been traumatized. you're not going to cry about it are you?

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The CC has all kinds of ups and downs, but she has never taught an error. We have God's promise on that.
The Bible repeatedly teaches the Church is infallible and indefectable. So for the Church to "go astray" is IMPOSSIBLE according to the Bible.
The corrupt pope argument backfires, because it proves the gates of Hades assailed, but did not prevail. . The essence of the doctrine of the papacy has not changed in 2000 years. No bad pope taught anything in the first place,and even if they did their teaching would be without error. We have God's promises on that.

Bringing up the sins of the reformers shows the futility of the bad pope argument.

We don't abandon Peter because of Judas.

DPMartin said:

do to the fact that you don't know, shows me you just might not be. I mean you do understand why back in the day England separated its self from the Catholic authorities after Queen Elisabeth was excommunicated and England formed the church of England, and the king was its vicar, right? you do understand why the US constitutional writers agreed to separation of Church and state right? also in the same respect the emperor was the vicar (while there were yet emperors) of the Catholic churches Greek or Eastern and Roman. the Catholic Church in its hay day was "the Church" hence defining itself as universal (Catholic), and persecuted and prosecuted all heresies it deem as heresies. it executed civil and criminal courts through out Europe. back in King James' day that was an issue with the Church of Rome, England disagreed that the Catholic church should hold civil court. there is a book about Sir Edward Coke that points out some of this history.

maybe you should read some more on what a Church of the state is. also today its also my understanding that now after the Chinese cast out and persecuted the Church (and other religions) that they also have a church of the state that is monitored by the state of China for the Christian population.

the info ain't hard to find, good luck with that.

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You are correct, the info ain't hard to find.

MYTHS ABOUT CHURCH-STATE SEPARATION

DPMartin said:

do to the fact that you don't know, shows me you just might not be. I mean you do understand why back in the day England separated its self from the Catholic authorities after Queen Elisabeth was excommunicated and England formed the church of England, and the king was its vicar, right?

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King Henry VIII made himself head of the Church of England by an act of parliament.

Never before in history, not even in Lutheran Germany, had the state engineered such a total confiscation of spiritual authority to its own advantage.(Daniel-Rops, 242-243)

...it get's worse...

• 
  In 1548, Edward VI, as supreme Head of the Church, caused it to be ordained that any clergyman not using the Book of Common Prayer, or using any other form of prayer, should suffer imprisonment for life! Three years later, this was extended to the laity . . . In fact, both priests and many of the laity were forced to adopt Anglicanism, or suffer death in ways of which the axe was the most merciful . . .
  
  All Catholics were placed under the harrow of oppressive laws. To become a Catholic was to commit an act of high treason . . . No christenings, marriages or burials could take place among them except according to the rites of the Church of England. Espionage and treachery were well rewarded. A statute of Parliament, passed in 1605, reads: 'Any person discovering where Mass was said, shall have his own pardon and one-third of the goods forfeited by the attainder.' . . .
  
  Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The Protestant Revolt: Its Tragic Initial Impact
  all citations are from Protestant or secular sources.

kepha31 said:

it proves the gates of Hades assailed, but did not prevail

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No such thing as another cardinal gets chatgerd with Child molesting,

FHII said:

And I can't find in DPMartin's post where he said it was in the Constitution.

US history tells that the phrase "separation of church and state" was coibed by T Jefferson in a private letter. He of course, didn't have a direct hand in writing the constitution. But his philosophy was taken into consideration long before he wrote that private letter. Indeed, the founding fathers believed it and is a dominate force behind the first amendment.

But... I find it interesting that DP's post covered a connection of gov't and church over a 1500 year span of world history, and your comment is about a phrase not in the constitution, while DP never said it was.

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Hi FHII,

He suggested it was in the Constitution when he said "the US constitutional writers agreed to separation of Church and state". That statement implies that it is in the Constitution in some form OR they agreed to it in some form. The fact is it is not implied NOR directly stated in the Constitution and there is NO RECORD of them ever saying that or writing it.

You are right, that phrase was in a T. Jefferson letter SEVERAL YEARS LATER.

So I ask: How could the US constitutional writers agree to separation of Church and State when they never said it or wrote it or practiced it?

In God we Trust printed on our money. Congress using tax dollars to purchase bibles. Religious figures engraved on our public buildings. The U.S. Capitol being used as a church building by the founding fathers. The first act of America’s first Congress was to ask a minister to open with prayer and lead Congress in the reading from the Bible. Founding father judges had prayer in their court rooms with the jurors. I could go on and on and.....

Does that sound like a separation of Church and State?

What our founding fathers ACTUALLY said is that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

I suspect what DPMartin really means or meant to say is that the founding fathers had a desire to avoid something like the government run Church of England. That is different than DPMartins aforementioned original statement. So maybe I misunderstood the intent of his original statement. If so...I apologize to him.

I realize his post covered a connection of gov't and church over a 1500 year span of world history. I intend to debate him on his historically inaccurate post ONE STATEMENT AT A TIME! His inaccurate separation of church and state statement is the first one to fall. But like I said, maybe I misunderstood what his intent was. I find it interesting that you are taking so much interest in how and to whom I respond to. Welcome to the conversation.

Love, Mary

DPMartin said:

do to the fact that you don't know, shows me you just might not be. I mean you do understand why back in the day England separated its self from the Catholic authorities after Queen Elisabeth was excommunicated and England formed the church of England, and the king was its vicar, right? you do understand why the US constitutional writers agreed to separation of Church and state right? also in the same respect the emperor was the vicar (while there were yet emperors) of the Catholic churches Greek or Eastern and Roman. the Catholic Church in its hay day was "the Church" hence defining itself as universal (Catholic), and persecuted and prosecuted all heresies it deem as heresies. it executed civil and criminal courts through out Europe. back in King James' day that was an issue with the Church of Rome, England disagreed that the Catholic church should hold civil court. there is a book about Sir Edward Coke that points out some of this history.

maybe you should read some more on what a Church of the state is. also today its also my understanding that now after the Chinese cast out and persecuted the Church (and other religions) that they also have a church of the state that is monitored by the state of China for the Christian population.

the info ain't hard to find, good luck with that.

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Dear sir,

The earliest recorded use of the term "Catholic Church" is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107AD. Is that the Catholic Church you speak of?

If you don't want or didn't like the Catholic Church prosecuting heresies then who or what church do you want to do it? You do know that a heretic holds an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the Truth or accepted beliefs or standards of Christianity. Who do you want to uphold the Truth of scripture?

I can't find any historical record of the Church holding criminal court. Can you share your research with me?

It seems you are equating the government taking over a church (China today) with the government accepting the teachings of a Church (Roman in the 4th century). Is that what your saying?

Curious Mary

Job said:

I think I'll be bowing out of this conversation. It's not like I haven't had it before. They all end the same. The truth packs a punch and feelings get hurt.

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Translation:
"All I have are fairy tales and lies to share and I'm tired of getting exposed."

Hmm

bbyrd009 said:

Your characterization of ".004%" or whatever is an insult, as is this "the RCC is a shining example of the right way to deal with abuse" yack, that just steals your veracity in other places. You cannot help but sound just like the government whitewashing its activities.

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How are these statistics (.004%) an "insult"??
Perhaps, a Protestant source might be more palatable for ya?? Maybe you should read "Pedophiles and Priests" by Protestant author, Philip Jenkins.

Jenkins lays out the statistics in his book and comes to the staggering conclusion: That the number of Catholic priests guilty of sexual misconduct PALES in comparison to the number of Protestant churches and school systems. He goes on to prove that the reason that the Catholic Church is in the "spotlight" is because of its perceived wealth, making is the #1 target of money-hungry lawyers.
Not much money in the thousands of Protestant churches, since many of them are not insured.

So - before you go on embarrassing yourself by making claims without having done your homework - look in your OWN back yard before you point fingers . . .

I think i will pray for a church that upholds people over doctrine. Since when does truth need defending?

BreadOfLife said:

Translation:
"All I have are fairy tales and lies to share and I'm tired of getting exposed."

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Which fairy tale would you like to hear next? How about the tale of the castration of young boys? Or the one about catholics stealing children?

I have lots of tales in my little bag of tricks. I'd be more than happy to expose the catholic church for you. Just keep asking.
.

BreadOfLife said:

How are these statistics (.004%) an "insult"??
Perhaps, a Protestant source might be more palatable for ya?? Maybe you should read "Pedophiles and Priests" by Protestant author, Philip Jenkins.

Jenkins lays out the statistics in his book and comes to the staggering conclusion: That the number of Catholic priests guilty of sexual misconduct PALES in comparison to the number of Protestant churches and school systems. He goes on to prove that the reason that the Catholic Church is in the "spotlight" is because of its perceived wealth, making is the #1 target of money-hungry lawyers.
Not much money in the thousands of Protestant churches, since many of them are not insured.

So - before you go on embarrassing yourself by making claims without having done your homework - look in your OWN back yard before you point fingers . . .

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hey, if deflecting makes you feel better, go for it lol--i'm not a Protestant

aspen said:

I think i will pray for a church that upholds people over doctrine. Since when does truth need defending?

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The truth is always under attack from the enemy.
Always HAS been - always WILL be.

Job said:

Which fairy tale would you like to hear next? How about the tale of the castration of young boys? Or the one about catholics stealing children?

I have lots of tales in my little bag of tricks. I'd be more than happy to expose the catholic church for you. Just keep asking.
.

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Yes - your back of "tricks" is aptly named.
You'd be better off doing some homework and explaining why your little videos have all be debunked . . .

bbyrd009 said:

hey, if deflecting makes you feel better, go for it lol--i'm not a Protestant

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I'm not "deflecting" anything.
I flat-out admitted that a whopping .004% of priests were guilty of these abominations.

How is that "deflecting", Einstein??

bbyrd009 said:

lol--i'm not a Protestant

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I think it's funny when they start pointing fingers at the protestants. Like the sins of one group make the sins another acceptable.

Job said:

I think it's funny when they start pointing fingers at the protestants. Like the sins of one group make the sins another acceptable.

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Not at all.
It's just a case of pulling out the log in your OWN eye before you look at the speck in someone else's (Matt. 7:3-5).

You don't know your Bible very well - do you??

Why are you so angry, Bread of Life? Love casts out all fear - running around 'sticking up for the obvious' and over identifying with doctrine is fear based. I joined the Catholic Church as an adult, after a lot of study. Glad I didn't meet any angry Catholics when I was discerning; I certainly would have missed out on a lot remaining Protestant

BreadOfLife said:

your little videos have all be debunked . . .

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Show us. If you say they've been debunked, you must have proof. Show us.

aspen said:

Why are you so angry, Bread of Life?

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I second that.