No scripture supports the Rapture

keras · Jul 10, 2017

Yes, this is a good discussion.
OzSpen; At death, our spirit returns to God, who gave it. There is no verse that says it will be conscious, with the exception of the souls of the martyrs, who are allowed to ask when the Lord will avenge them.
Sleep, is the word used, which has the connotation of awakening later. Just as I showed.
Your verses like Matthew 5:8 do not say when we will see His face and Revelation 7 is a entirely earthly scene. Verses 1-14 happen in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and verses 15-17 are after the Millennium, in the New Jerusalem.
Proved by how God will wipe every tear from their eyes, paralleled in Revelation 21:4

Wormwood; as you may see from my thread; The Day of Deliverance, the Prophetic Word tells us how the Lord will save and protect His people during His terrible Day of wrath, the soon to happen Sixth Seal judgement of the nations.
Then we will be gathered and will migrate into all of the holy Land. Psalms 107, Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:18b-21, Isaiah 35:1-10 are some of the best prophesies about this. We Christians are the Lord's people, His chosen; John 15:18, 1 Peter 2:8-10, and we are the people; nation, who bear the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43. We will, at last; be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Acts 13:47
So, basically there is no need for anyone, other than the 2 Witnesses to go to heaven, Rev 11:12 The whole idea of a rapture removal of Christians to heaven, is not part of God's plan for His people. Therefore, a body change is not necessary or logical, before the final wrap up and then all those whose names are written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and be with God for Eternity, when God and therefore: heaven will be on earth. Rev 21:1-4

bbyrd009 · Jul 10, 2017

Copperhead said:
Nah.. not worth the time.

then you must concede, yes?

ScottA · Jul 10, 2017

keras said:
Consciousness after death?

Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they perish….

Many other passages [such as Psalm 6:5 and 30:9] support soul sleep and do not make sense if only talking about the body….

This same message of an end of consciousness was evident when Adam sinned. God plainly told him he would return to dust (Genesis 3:19). Adam was not conscious before creation, and God made it clear he would return to that unconscious state. Thoughts occur in the brain, which stops functioning and starts decomposing at death. Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says so many different ways….

Solomon also supports soul sleep:

But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

These scriptures prove there is no conscious being, for people after death.

Those scriptures prove nothing of the sort.

Psalm 6:5 refers to the body not being able to remember "You" (the Lord), not to people.
Psalm 30:9 refers only to the flesh.
Psalm 146:4 also only to the flesh.

"Soul sleep" is a fallacy of the carnal mind, just as is Purgatory. Those verses were preached to those who were to look forward to the promise of the coming of Christ, whom were not sealed in the spirit, but by faith alone.

Richard_oti · Jul 10, 2017

Just a curiosity: In scanning through this thread, I didn't notice any reference to Matthew 13.

Mat 13:24 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field: 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares? 28 And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, 42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Just curious...

keras · Jul 11, 2017

Richard_oti said:
Just a curiosity: In scanning through this thread, I didn't notice any reference to Matthew 13.

When is the end of the world?
At the end of the Millennium, as Revelation 20:11 onward says. THAT is when the parable of the wheat and tares is fulfilled. The godless wicked are burned up and those found worthy; their names in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and enter Eternity with God.
Any interpretation other that this, simply doesn't take all that is said into consideration.

ScottA, You haven't addressed the fact that the martyrs 'sleep' under the Altar, while you think every other dead Christian is alive in heaven.
You [unsuccessfully] refute the verses I quote, but don't post any proof of consciousness after death.

n2thelight · Jul 11, 2017

keras said:
You [unsuccessfully] refute the verses I quote, but don't post any proof of consciousness after death

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord , holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Don't think sleeping people talk

keras · Jul 11, 2017

n2thelight said:
Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord , holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Don't think sleeping people talk

Don't think living people carry on their lives under the heavenly Altar.

ScottA · Jul 11, 2017

Richard_oti said:
Just a curiosity: In scanning through this thread, I didn't notice any reference to Matthew 13.

Mat 13:24 Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field: 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares? 28 And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36 Then he left the multitudes, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, 42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

Just curious...

Very good point. Yet, as a parable, it does not tell all. The point of parables is to give clarity to a principle...by means of a completely different subject that is not otherwise relative, not literal.

Remember, that Jesus told the apostles that he had many more things to tell them, but even after living with him for three years, they could not bear anything more. So, the mystery of his coming, the transformation of flesh to spirit and death to life, was thereafter revealed in part to the apostle Paul, and in full by the Holy Spirit. The word revealed to and by Paul, is that "each" would "come in his own order" - not in a mass event. That just "as with Adam all sinned", each would [in effect] pay the penalty at the end of their own lifetime.

But, also, since you brought it up: The end of "each"..."is the end of the world." The two revelations in part, make up the whole truth.

ScottA · Jul 11, 2017

keras said:
ScottA, You haven't addressed the fact that the martyrs 'sleep' under the Altar, while you think every other dead Christian is alive in heaven.
You [unsuccessfully] refute the verses I quote, but don't post any proof of consciousness after death.

One thing at a time.

You say those souls spoken of "sleep" "under the altar." But they do not "sleep", but rather are either dead or living...for in Christ, there is none other but the dead of promise and the living who believe.

keras · Jul 11, 2017

ScottA said:
You say those souls spoken of "sleep" "under the altar." But they do not "sleep", but rather are either dead or living...for in Christ, there is none other but the dead of promise and the living who believe.

The souls of the dead all go back to God, who placed them into every human. Eccl 12:7
But the souls of those who have been beheaded for the sake of God's Word and their witness of Jesus, Rev 20:4, are the only ones that will come to life again at Jesus' Return. All the rest of humanity since Adam await the GWT, at the end of the Millennium. THEN the promise of immortality, for those whose names are written in the Book of life, for those whose names are not found; the Lake of Fire is their lot.
Any teaching that says anyone becomes immortal, or even receives a new body other than the martyrs, before the GWT; is false and unscriptural.

Richard_oti · Jul 12, 2017

keras said:
When is the end of the world?

The "world", or the "age"?

keras said:
At the end of the Millennium,

Yes, but that is the millennium, which, one could liken unto an "age". An age that follows this current age. For in verses 4 and 5, there is a first resurrection before the millennium, and a second resurrection at the end of the millennium in the saying: Rev 20:5 "The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished." ASV

For the new heavens and the new earth do not occur until after the millennium (cf Rev 20:11 and 21:1). Further, per Revelation 19, the millennium would occur after the return.

keras said:
as Revelation 20:11 onward says. THAT is when the parable of the wheat and tares is fulfilled.

Not specifically. That is opinion from my perspective. Just as that which I present, is also opinion. Per Matthew 24, it is after the "trib" or tribulation of those days that he shall send forth angels (cf Mat 24:31) which in my opinion, is before the millennium.

keras said:
The godless wicked are burned up

In Revelation 9:18, by three plagues, a third part are slain by fire, smoke and brimstone.
In Revelation 10:7, when the seventh angel is about to sound, then is finished the mystery of God. Is that the "last" trump that Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 15, the time of the first resurrection prior to the millennium?

keras said:
<snip>
Any interpretation other that this, simply doesn't take all that is said into consideration.

Hmm. Perhaps, perhaps not. I'll let others judge that.

Richard_oti · Jul 12, 2017

ScottA said:
Very good point. Yet, as a parable, it does not tell all.

Indubitably.

ScottA said:
The point of parables is to give clarity to a principle...by means of a completely different subject that is not otherwise relative, not literal.

Indeed. However, that parable was explained to some degree.

ScottA said:
Remember, that Jesus told the apostles that he had many more things to tell them, but even after living with him for three years, they could not bear anything more. So, the mystery of his coming, the transformation of flesh to spirit and death to life, was thereafter revealed in part to the apostle Paul, and in full by the Holy Spirit. The word revealed to and by Paul, is that "each" would "come in his own order" - not in a mass event.

Indeed, it is not a "mass" event, but rather several events. Which is why the parable of the wheat and the tares and it's explanation helps in my opinion with regard to the infamous "Rapture".

ScottA said:
That just "as with Adam all sinned", each would [in effect] pay the penalty at the end of their own lifetime.

But, also, since you brought it up: The end of "each"..."is the end of the world."

Perhaps, perhaps not. I think that statement is perhaps oversimplified with regard to the "whole".

ScottA said:
The two revelations in part, make up the whole truth.

keras · Jul 12, 2017

Richard_oti said:
The "world", or the "age"?

In that case, I meant 'the world' as we know it. There will be a [re]new heaven and earth.
The end of this age is the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. 1000 years, as we are clearly told in Revelation 20.

Richard_oti said:
In Revelation 9:18, by three plagues, a third part are slain by fire, smoke and brimstone.
In Revelation 10:7, when the seventh angel is about to sound, then is finished the mystery of God. Is that the "last" trump that Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 15, the time of the first resurrection prior to the millennium?

Don't mix up the different events. What you say here is part of the Great Tribulation, that happens in the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. At the GWT Judgement, The godless wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:15

ScottA · Jul 12, 2017

keras said:
The souls of the dead all go back to God, who placed them into every human. Eccl 12:7
But the souls of those who have been beheaded for the sake of God's Word and their witness of Jesus, Rev 20:4, are the only ones that will come to life again at Jesus' Return. All the rest of humanity since Adam await the GWT, at the end of the Millennium. THEN the promise of immortality, for those whose names are written in the Book of life, for those whose names are not found; the Lake of Fire is their lot.
Any teaching that says anyone becomes immortal, or even receives a new body other than the martyrs, before the GWT; is false and unscriptural.

The problem with that explanation is that it only speaks to the temporal timeline of those who do not have eyes to see the timing from God's [timeless] perspective. It is finished.

If we have not yet seen the white throne judgement, it is only because we remain in the world. But do not suppose that what is foretold of the day of the Lord, comes in your own day, rather than his. We do not wait upon the Lord - that time has passed, he waits upon us. And if our witness is true...it is to say, that he has come already.

Richard_oti · Jul 12, 2017

keras said:
In that case, I meant 'the world' as we know it.

Thank you for the clarification.

keras said:
There will be a [re]new heaven and earth.

Indubitably. For this one (heaven and earth) per Revelation 20:11-12 is destined to flee before the face of the one upon the GWT. Just prior to the second resurrection of the dead following the millennial reign.

keras said:
The end of this age is the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. 1000 years, as we are clearly told in Revelation 20.

Indeed. Which is immediately after the "trib" per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. Which, in my opinion, when compared also to the explanation in Matthew 13, seems in perfect harmony.

Richard_oti said:
In Revelation 9:18, by three plagues, a third part are slain by fire, smoke and brimstone.
In Revelation 10:7, when the seventh angel is about to sound, then is finished the mystery of God. Is that the "last" trump that Paul speaks of in 1 Cor 15, the time of the first resurrection prior to the millennium?

keras said:

Don't mix up the different events. What you say here is part of the Great Tribulation, that happens in the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. At the GWT Judgement, The godless wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:15

Click to expand...

If you will notice above, regarding Revelation 10:7 was a "question". Not a mixing of events. Mea culpa if it came across as a mixing of events. OTOH, your two statements above could also come across in the same manner, as a mixing of events, which are clearly a millennium apart.

Now perhaps, you did not care to answer or speculate regarding my question. Or, perhaps that was not the case, and you simply did not realize it was a question. I shall assume the latter giving the benefit of the doubt. Thus, the question still stands.

As for Revelation 9:18, it is indeed part of the "trib".

As for your reference to Revelation 20:15, that is clearly the second resurrection of the dead following the millennial reign, a millennium after the "trib" and the return.

keras · Jul 13, 2017

Richard_oti said:
Now perhaps, you did not care to answer or speculate regarding my question. Or, perhaps that was not the case, and you simply did not realize it was a question. I shall assume the latter giving the benefit of the doubt. Thus, the question still stands.

As for Revelation 9:18, it is indeed part of the "trib".

As for your reference to Revelation 20:15, that is clearly the second resurrection of the dead following the millennial reign, a millennium after the "trib" and the return.

Thank you, Richard. We are indeed, in agreement on these issues.

ScottA; you have a rather unique view of Bible Prophecy. I see no point in trying to change your set opinions.

n2thelight · Jul 13, 2017

keras said:
Don't think living people carry on their lives under the heavenly Altar.

Moses and Elijah are they dead,and do you believe in soul sleep?

keras · Jul 13, 2017

n2thelight said:
Moses and Elijah are they dead,and do you believe in soul sleep?

I'm sure we can say that Moses and Elijah are special people. They appeared to Jesus and may be the 2 Witnesses of Revelation 11
The idea of consciousness after death contradicts plainly stated scripture like Eccl 9:5 and Hebrews 9:27.
Not going to happen, its just another Satanic lie.

Wormwood · Jul 13, 2017

KEras,

Well, I believe the "two witnesses" refers to the entire church...as a testimony is validated on the basis of two or three witnesses. I think it is a symbolic number indicating that those who reject the Gospel have no valid reason for doing so. Their rejection is merely an expression of their own wickedness and rebellion against God. Again, my interpretation of Revelation is very different from yours, so we may not be able to have a meaningful conversation about soul sleep while referencing Revelation.

Dcopymope · Jul 13, 2017

With all this talk of so called "soul sleep", its supporters conveniently left out the verses of Jesus Christ preaching the gospel to the dead. How can Jesus Christ talk to someone that's sound asleep? Perhaps he woke them up by pouring a bucket of ice cold water on them or something, but then we would be heading into the territory of non-scriptural stupidity.

(1 Peter 3:17-20) "For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. {18} For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: {19} By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; {20} Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

(1 Peter 4:3-6) "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: {4} Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: {5} Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. {6} For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

No scripture supports the Rapture

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