Catholics

aspen · Jul 24, 2017

No more Catholic material?!

Lol - that could be a problem on a Catholic thread, Job

aspen · Jul 24, 2017

BreadOfLife said:
Perhaps you have a problem reading because I wasn't justifying ANYBODY's behavior.
I specifically pointed that out - and you dishonestly ignored it.

I merely stated that it is only blind and hateful anti-Catholics who refuse to see the same filth in their OWN backyards that they accuse the Catholic Church of.

So what you are saying is, you are not justifying abuse, but those guys do it too and are blaming Catholics!

This is a justification

BreadOfLife · Jul 24, 2017

aspen said:
So what you are saying is, you are not justifying abuse, but those guys do it too and are blaming Catholics!
This is a justification

WRONG.

YOU made it into a Catholic problem and I was showing you that it is a problem in ALL Christianity.
I was showing your hypocrisy in decrying the "evils" of the Catholic Church in regards to child molestation - when the problem is even worse among the Protestant sects.

This is not a justification - it's a cold slap of reality . . .

aspen · Jul 24, 2017

you are blind, BoL.

If you bothered to read my posts, you would see that I do not believe sex abuse was created by the Catholic Church or only exists within Catholicism. Abuse is a Catholic problem if it occurs within the church. Denying this is foolish. You seem to have a hair trigger when it comes to calling people liars without regard for accuracy; yet, according to the definition of a liar; liars lie, just like abusers abuse - sorry buddy. Facing it and demanding change is paramount to rooting out the evil.

If, however, you choose to deflect or point out hypocrisy behind every bush and ring the BS bell every time someone outside the church points out this evil; you defend the churches' inadequate measures and Catholics reading it think, 'hey, this was all in the past and we don't have to worry about sexual deviance in our church anymore!' Meanwhile at the Vatican..... Cardinals are having orgies and the cover up is in full force within the Roman Curia. The current Pope would agree - this issue needs constant acts of vigilance and accountably, not a defense.

bbyrd009 · Jul 24, 2017

and Protestantism is surely in no better shape, yes; it is just more diffuse. The RCC is just a huge target.

aspen · Jul 24, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
and Protestantism is surely in no better shape, yes; it is just more diffuse. The RCC is just a huge target.

Protestants and Muslims are similar in this regard - neither have a central authority to consult when problems arise, or to nail down a consensus.

ScottA · Jul 24, 2017

kepha31 said:
Jesus said "you", referring to Peter, FIVE TIMES. Jesus gave keys to all the Apostles? Chapter and verse, please. He later gave the power to bind and loose to all the Apostles as a COLLECTIVE, but earlier gave Peter both as an INDIVIDUAL. This clearly shows Peter's preeminence.

It means the Father revealed to Peter who Jesus was, not human knowledge. Jesus was not condemning "flesh and blood" the way you do.

Of course Jesus called Peter by name...he was intimately involved with Christ's announcement of how he would build His church. It was a milestone of Christ's own ministry - and Peter got to be a part of it. That's awesome! Nonetheless, the "subject" of their conversation was more importantly, the spirit of the Father...and specifically NOT "flesh and blood", specifically, not Peter.

The passage with Peter is in Matthew chapter 16... the passage showing the same, not for all the "apostles', but for all His "disciples", is 18:18. But while you are in 16, and before you go calling Peter "Holy Father", notice that as special and cool as it is for Peter to be implicated in this great revelation...just a few verses away Jesus calls Peter "Satan."

The point is...Jesus was under no illusion about Peter...and you should not be either.

Marymog · Jul 24, 2017

pia said:
Having spent a couple of weeks now reading through a lot of the material posted on this forum, I can but weep. The following part of Galatians 5 came to me.....Verse 14 : For ALL the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this :" You shall love your neighbor as yourself."........Verse 15 : But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you become consumed by one another......Seems to me there is an awful lot of 'biting' and 'devouring' going on all throughout these posts...... One other thing came to mind relating more to this particular 'thread' ; 1 John 5 : 7 and 8............7) For there are three that bear witness in Heaven; The Father, The Word and The Holy Spirit, and these three ARE one. 8) And there are three that bear witness on earth; The Spirit, the water and the blood; and these three AGREE as one....... But nowhere in the Bible or anywhere else that I am aware of, does it say :" The mother Mary, and the pope and the catholic church ( you can put ANY organized religious institution in place of catholic if you want ), these three bear witness of Me and these three agree as one....If I am not correct in this statement, please enlighten me as to where I can find it.....Last I just want to say that I am absolutely gobsmacked at how many people who write here and present themselves as Christians, seem to have zero idea of The Living Resurrected Jesus as well as The Holy Spirit, and what Jesus sent Him to us for. Jesus ought not just be a character from the Bible to a Christian, but a living reality who can both hear you and speak to you and in some cases even show Himself to you ( if or when He deems it necessary ), and as far as The Holy Spirit goes, one of the things He was sent to us to do, was to grant us revelation from above, to be our teacher to lead us into the Truth. If we as Christians were to do this, we would always come into agreement, (albeit perhaps at different times), because The Holy Spirit cannot tell anyone a lie, whereas men, whoever they may be, both can and often will tell lies, whether they are aware of it or not........The way things are, we have people being told :" You MUST follow the catholic church, or any other organized religious church. You MUST follow the pope or some self proclaimed prophet, such as the latter day saints or some other man. You MUST follow this doctrine or that doctrine....Whatever happened to doing what Jesus said to do, as in following HIM and letting Him teach us? That way we can be certain of getting it the way God our Father intended, so that we may eventually get to the place of KNOWING ( not having knowledge of ) the whole Truth and KNOWING Jesus, and not just having heard of Him or read about Him. There is a HUGE difference between those two, having knowledge versus knowing. Anyone who reads what I have written here, may say that they have a little knowledge about me, but they can surely never say, that through this they KNOW me, that would be a lie and therefore not from above. You are all precious jewels to our Father, but don't ever think of yourself as a shiny diamond while you look at or treat other believers as mere gravel. That, dear brothers and sisters, would be a grave error to make..... Be blessed IN HIM.

Hi PIA,

Scripture CLEARLY sets up a hierarchal Church. What Church do you belong to?

Jesus said to eat his body and drink his blood....How do I do this PIA? How do I, Marymog, eat His body and drink his blood and fulfill what Jesus said to do?

Curious Mary

Job · Jul 24, 2017

Old Man said:
Then you better stop reading the New Testament. Written by, disseminated by, read in local churches by, preserved by, collected by, ratified by... the Catholic Church.

I'm amazed that you would actually come out and admit that.

h

Job · Jul 24, 2017

Old Man said:
Where do you get the notion that Sacred Scripture is the inerrant word of God?

Where did you get it?

Job · Jul 24, 2017

Old Man said:
If you want me to answer, then you're going to get Catholic material. I'm Catholic, so whatever I type is going to be Catholic. Care to rephrase?

No.

ScottA · Jul 24, 2017

Marymog said:
Scripture CLEARLY sets up a hierarchal Church. What Church do you belong to?

Not so...not like that:

Matthew 23:8
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

Matthew 23:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

BreadOfLife · Jul 24, 2017

ScottA said:
Not so...not like that:

Matthew 23:8
But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.

Matthew 23:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

No hierarchy? REALLY??
That's not what MY Bible says . . .

Acts 1:20
Let another take his office (episkopay/bishopric).

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

Don't call ANYBODY Father? REALLY??
That's not what MY Bible says . . .

- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).

- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).

- St. Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).

- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

- We see in Matt. 19:5, Mark 10:7 where Jesus quotes Gen. 2:24, which states: “That is why a man leaves his FATHER and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.”

- In Eph. 5:31, Paul quotes the very same verse. The Greek same word for FATHER, πατερ (pat-ayr’), is used in all 3 verses.

- God commands us to “Honor your father and Mother” (Exod.20:12).

BreadOfLife · Jul 24, 2017

Job said:
Where did you get it?

WHO told you that it was inerrant??
WHO told you which Books belong in the Bible??

BreadOfLife · Jul 24, 2017

aspen said:
you are blind, BoL.

If you bothered to read my posts, you would see that I do not believe sex abuse was created by the Catholic Church or only exists within Catholicism. Abuse is a Catholic problem if it occurs within the church. Denying this is foolish. You seem to have a hair trigger when it comes to calling people liars regardless of accuracy, but according to the definition of a liar, liars lie, just like abusers abuse - sorry buddy. Facing it and demanding change is paramount to rooting out the evil.

If, however, you choose to deflect or point out hypocrisy behind every bush and ring the BS bell every time someone outside the church points out the evil; you defending the churches inadequate measures and Catholics reading it think 'hey, this was all in the past and we don't have to worry about sexual deviance in our church anymore!' Meanwhile at the Vatican..... Cardinals are having orgies and the cover up is in full force within the Roman Curia. The current Pope would agree - this issue needs constant acts of vigilance and accountably, not defense.

And, again - this is not defense or justification for anything.
I'm simply showing your hypocrisy in making this a purely "Catholic" issue when this abomination is FAR worse in Protestantism.

You just did it again - pointing out the latest scandal but you haven't name ONE scandal in the Protestant sects.
You're a cliché. An anti-Catholic disguised as a "soldier" of truth while hiding most of the facts.

As for "inadequate measure" being taken - this is an anti-Catholic farce.
The Catholic Church in the U.S. is now the safest place for a child - especially compared to the Protestant sects and public schools who have taken almost ZERO measures to safeguard their children.

You wanna talk truth - then let's talk about the WHOLE truth and not just what YOU choose to cherry-pick . . .

ScottA · Jul 24, 2017

BreadOfLife said:
No hierarchy? REALLY??
That's not what MY Bible says . . .

Acts 1:20
Let another take his office (episkopay/bishopric).

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

Don't call ANYBODY Father? REALLY??
That's not what MY Bible says . . .

- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).

- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).

- St. Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).

- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

- We see in Matt. 19:5, Mark 10:7 where Jesus quotes Gen. 2:24, which states: “That is why a man leaves his FATHER and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.”

- In Eph. 5:31, Paul quotes the very same verse. The Greek same word for FATHER, πατερ (pat-ayr’), is used in all 3 verses.

- God commands us to “Honor your father and Mother” (Exod.20:12).

By your measure the Word of God contradicts Himself. But you are not the measure of God, nor His Word. Nor can you quote one scripture, or many, to void my own quote. Because you do so, is an obvious sign that you simply do not understand - because you cannot reconcile God's Word.

But, I can. And if you were inclined to hear the Word, you would be inclined to hear me. But you are not, because the Word (Christ) is not in you.

Job · Jul 24, 2017

ScottA said:
By your measure the Word of God contradicts Himself. But you are not the measure of God, nor His Word. Nor can you quote one scripture, or many, to void my own quote. Because you do so, is an obvious sign that you simply do not understand - because you cannot reconcile God's Word.

But, I can. And if you were inclined to hear the Word, you would be inclined to hear me. But you are not, because the Word (Christ) is not in you.

Good post.

BreadOfLife · Jul 24, 2017

ScottA said:
By your measure the Word of God contradicts Himself. But you are not the measure of God, nor His Word. Nor can you quote one scripture, or many, to void my own quote. Because you do so, is an obvious sign that you simply do not understand - because you cannot reconcile God's Word.

But, I can. And if you were inclined to hear the Word, you would be inclined to hear me. But you are not, because the Word (Christ) is not in you.

RUBBISH.

First of all - I don't find ANY contradiction in the Word of God because I understand what Jesus meant when He said call no man "Father."
YOU don't get it so you accuse me oif finding "contradiction" in Scripture. Allow me to educate you:

Jesus was using hyperbole (exaggeration) to make a point and does so many times in Scripture. In the verse that precedes this (Matt: 23:8), Jesus tells us not to call people “Teachers”. Is Jesus telling us that we can’t call certain people "fathers" or “teachers” when they may actually be fathers or teachers? Absolutely NOT. He is telling us that no man is to be considered father above our Father in Heaven and no person is to be considered teacher above our Teacher in Heaven.

Jesus was speaking about the Scribes and Pharisees who exalted themselves before all:
“They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.”(Matt 23:6-7)

As I already showed you - there are DOZENS of examples in Scripture where men are called "Father" and "Teacher" - and it is perfectly fine with God.
- Jesus said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- St. Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- St. Paul speaks of "our father Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
- We see in Matt. 19:5, Mark 10:7 where Jesus quotes Gen. 2:24, which states: “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.”
- In Eph. 5:31, Paul quotes the very same verse. The Greek same word for Father, πατερ (pat-ayr’), is used in all 3 verses.
- God commands us to “Honor your father and Mother” (Exod.20:12).

- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11).
- "God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28).

aspen · Jul 24, 2017

And, again - this is not defense or justification for anything.

Then why bring it up?

I'm simply showing your hypocrisy in making this a purely "Catholic" issue when this abomination is FAR worse in Protestantism.

.

Ah....so you are still pretending that I am doing this, even when I have clearly stated that sexual abuse exists elsewhere, twice? Seems relevant here that Jesus didn't compare the fig tree with other fig trees for its lack of fruit.

All comparisons are justifications. If you cared about sex abuse within other churches, at least I could see why you were bringing it up, but you don't. You are only mentioning this sweeping generalization that sex abuse is 'far worse' in Protestantism to minimize it within Catholicism - shame on you.

You just did it again - pointing out the latest scandal but you haven't name ONE scandal in the Protestant sects.

Correct. Sexual abuse in other churches is not my primary concern: different eye; different log.

You're a cliché. An anti-Catholic disguised as a "soldier" of truth while hiding most of the facts.

How cliché.....

I am concerned about my own church and the people who attend my church. It's my business and my responsibility.

As for "inadequate measure" being taken - this is an anti-Catholic farce.
The Catholic Church in the U.S. is now the safest place for a child - especially compared to the Protestant sects and public schools who have taken almost ZERO measures to safeguard their children

If the abuse and cover up is still happening, the measures remain inadequate.

You have no idea about how effective measures have been or even, what measures have been implemented in any of these groups. This is about you. Your ego has been wounded because you have overidentified with the Roman Catholic Church, and any critique is interpreted by you as a personal attack. Stop living in your false self and open your eyes! The well being of the people within your church depend on it.

You wanna talk truth - then let's talk about the WHOLE truth and not just what YOU choose to cherry-pick . . .

Sigh.....

So says the guy who sets up a Catholic thread and invites people to comment.

BreadOfLife · Jul 24, 2017

aspen said:
Then why bring it up?

HUH??
I was simply answering some accusations.

Why did YOU bring it up??

aspen said:
Ah....so you are still pretending that I am doing this, even when I have clearly stated that sexual abuse exists elsewhere, twice?

All comparisons are justifications. If you cared about sex abuse within other churches, at least I could see why you were bringing it up, but you don't. You are only mentioning this sweeping generalization that sex abuse is 'far worse' in Protestantism to minimize it within Catholicism - shame on you.

No - all comparisons are NOT justifications.
It appears that you need to visit a dictionary or thesaurus.

I'm not trying to "justify" the disgusting actions of a small number of priests. I'm simply reminding those of you anti-Catholics who are pointing at the Church in regards to sex abuse that this is ALSO going on in your own backyards at an alarmingly higher rate.

It's a perfect example of what Jesus said when He admonished:
Matt. 7:5
You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from YOUR eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.

aspen said:
Correct. Sexual abuse in other churches is not my primary concern: different eye; different log.
How cliché.....
I am concerned about my own church and the people who attend my church. It's my business and my responsibility.

And if you knew squat about what you claim to be your Church - you would know that the Catholic Church in the U.S. is now the SAFEST haven for children. This is just another reason that I don't think you're a Catholic.

aspen said:
If the abuse and cover up is still happening, the measures remain inadequate.
You have no idea about how effective measures have been or even what measures have been implemented in any of these groups. Your ego is wounded because you have overidentified with the Roman Catholic Church, and any critique, is interpreted by you as a personal attack. Stop living in your false self and open your eyes! The well being of the people within your church depend on it.
Sigh.....

The safeguards taken by the Catholic Church have been well-documented - for those who have open eyes.
Yours are apparently closed - and judging by how little you know about what you claim to be your Church - I'm NOT surprised at all.

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