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Helen

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Then, refute the passages in post #639 . . .

Hi there.
I do say amen to his/her post.

I do NOT discount FIRE...after falling away, yes, there will be a price to pay, and it wont be fun!! What I do disagree with is- "the forever" thing.
I am not expecting you to believe what I believe...I am just saying what I believe.
With all of my being I believe in a God or Mercy and Love..
I trust Him , so I believe He has a divine Plan...and He will bring everything into order.
With my dying breath, I will go down proclaiming that God is Good...all the time. But, as said, I do believe in The Refining Fire for those who turn to their own ways...but not "forever" but until the Fire has done His work.
That is just what I personally believe, not trying to persuade any one else. :)
 
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BreadOfLife

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Hi there.
I do say amen to his/her post.

I do NOT discount FIRE...after falling away, yes, there will be a price to pay, and it wont be fun!! What I do disagree with is- "the forever" thing.
I am not expecting you to believe what I believe...I am just saying what I believe.
With all of my being I believe in a God or Mercy and Love..
I trust Him , so I believe He has a divine Plan...and He will bring everything into order.
With my dying breath, I will go down proclaiming that God is Good...all the time. But, as said, I do believe in The Refining Fire for those who turn to their own ways...but not "forever" but until the Fire has done His work.
That is just what I personally believe, not trying to persuade any one else. :)
Fair enough - and I'm not trying to convert you.
I merely want to know what you (and others) have to say about the passages I presented that clearly show that a person can fall away from God.

I also believe in the Refining Fire of God.
This is what we Catholics call "Purgatory."
 
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Stranger

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No, it's not.
That is a Catholic Bible.

What is the "Roman" Bible??
When you say "Roman" - what are you referring to?

Incorrect.
There are MANY examples of Christians who went astray - some of them in my own family.

The following passages of Scripture are perfect examples of this.
Christians who lose their way and fall out of favor with God:

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

No, the Vulgate is the Roman Bible. Catholic speaks to the universal Church of Christ. Of which I and every other born-again Christian are part of. Roman Catholic is an oxymoron, as I have told you before. What you call the 'Roman Catholic Church', is nothing but the Roman Church. Which is why it is based in Rome.

Concerning (Heb. 10:26-27) see (Heb.10:17-18). It should be self-explanatory, but then , I assume too much. (10:18) says (where remission of these is , there is no more offering for sin." In other words, Christ is the one time offering for sin. When we as Christians sin, we don't seek another offering. The one offering, Jesus Christ, is all we need. We can expect judgement, but not against us, but against that which is destroying us. (10:27)

My how we love to send the people of God to hell. You just can't get away from your grocery list of verses that speak to loss of salvation.

Concerning (2 Peter 2:20-22) see (2 Peter 2:1). Peter is speaking of 'false prophets and teachers'. These are not Christians.


Stranger
 

Stranger

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Fair enough - and I'm not trying to convert you.
I merely want to know what you (and others) have to say about the passages I presented that clearly show that a person can fall away from God.

I also believe in the Refining Fire of God.
This is what we Catholics call "Purgatory."

Prove purgatory by the Scriptures.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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No, the Vulgate is the Roman Bible. Catholic speaks to the universal Church of Christ. Of which I and every other born-again Christian are part of. Roman Catholic is an oxymoron, as I have told you before. What you call the 'Roman Catholic Church', is nothing but the Roman Church. Which is why it is based in Rome.
WRONG again.
I don't refer to the "Roman" Church - just the Catholic Church.

The official title of the Catholic Church is, "The Catholic Church."
It is NOT called the "Roman Church."

Do you even understand what is meant by "Roman" Catholic Church??
I don't think you do.
Concerning (Heb. 10:26-27) see (Heb.10:17-18). It should be self-explanatory, but then , I assume too much. (10:18) says (where remission of these is , there is no more offering for sin." In other words, Christ is the one time offering for sin. When we as Christians sin, we don't seek another offering. The one offering, Jesus Christ, is all we need. We can expect judgement, but not against us, but against that which is destroying us. (10:27)

My how we love to send the people of God to hell. You just can't get away from your grocery list of verses that speak to loss of salvation.
That is a complete perversion of the text.
The phrase, "that is going to consume the adversaries" means that WE too will suffer what the adversaries will suffer.

I don't know where you get the idea that we can sin all we want - and the enemy will suffer for it - but it's complete Scriptural perversion.
WE will be judged for what WE do - not somebody else (Matt. 25:31-46).
Concerning (2 Peter 2:20-22) see (2 Peter 2:1). Peter is speaking of 'false prophets and teachers'. These are not Christians.
WRONG.
You totally disregard the "Epignosis" that is being spoken of.
Hebrews 10:26-27
If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
 

BreadOfLife

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Prove purgatory by the Scriptures.
The doctrine of Purgatory is the most misunderstood doctrine - especially to Protestants and anti-Catholics.

First of all, Purgatory isn’t necessarily a place, but a state. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it’s a “final purification of the elect” (1030-1032). Another misconception is that Purgatory is a “second chance”. This is NOT the case, as those Christians who die in a state of mortal sin are not eligible because mortal sin severs our relationship with God.

Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven. Those in Purgatory will indeed make it into heaven. As the great Protestant author, C.S. Lewis once stated, “The mercy of God demands purgatory.”

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

Matt. 5:25-26
tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.
 

Stranger

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WRONG again.
I don't refer to the "Roman" Church - just the Catholic Church.

The official title of the Catholic Church is, "The Catholic Church."
It is NOT called the "Roman Church."

Do you even understand what is meant by "Roman" Catholic Church??
I don't think you do.

That is a complete perversion of the text.
The phrase, "that is going to consume the adversaries" means that WE too will suffer what the adversaries will suffer.

I don't know where you get the idea that we can sin all we want - and the enemy will suffer for it - but it's complete Scriptural perversion.
WE will be judged for what WE do - not somebody else (Matt. 25:31-46).

WRONG.
You totally disregard the "Epignosis" that is being spoken of.
Hebrews 10:26-27
If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Well, the Roman Church is not the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the universal Church of Jesus Christ. Of which I and every born-again believer is part of. The Roman Church wants to be a Roman Catholic Church, but as I said that is an oxymoron. It doesn't matter what you want to call it. You and the Catholic Church are calling it wrong.

I didn't say we wouldn't be judged. But the destruction is to the adversairies. (Heb.10:26-27) is clear. For the believer it is judgement, but not a loss of salvation.

No, I didn't disregard your 'greek'. It is a warning to believers. But not a loss of salvation. Again you are not paying attention to what I said before. (Heb. 10:26) says 'there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins'. When we as Christians sin, there remains no more sacrifice to bring. As Jesus Christ is the One Sacrifice. Read the whole chapter. Paul is contrasting the many sacrifices of the Mosaic Law and the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Because the Mosaic Law's sacrifices only covered sin but didn't remit sin, then the sinner had to continue to keep bringing more sacrifices. But now, as (Heb. 10:18) says, '...where remission of thes is, there is no m ore offerin for sin.' Do you understand now? That is why they call it 'good news'.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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The doctrine of Purgatory is the most misunderstood doctrine - especially to Protestants and anti-Catholics.

First of all, Purgatory isn’t necessarily a place, but a state. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it’s a “final purification of the elect” (1030-1032). Another misconception is that Purgatory is a “second chance”. This is NOT the case, as those Christians who die in a state of mortal sin are not eligible because mortal sin severs our relationship with God.

Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven. Those in Purgatory will indeed make it into heaven. As the great Protestant author, C.S. Lewis once stated, “The mercy of God demands purgatory.”

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

Matt. 5:25-26
tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

I see. The Roman Church and others see a need for purgatory. So they find Scriptures and apocrypha to use to support that need.

But Scripture doesn't say anything about any purgatory being a final purification of the elect. Nor does it say anything about a mortal sin.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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I see. The Roman Church and others see a need for purgatory. So they find Scriptures and apocrypha to use to support that need.

But Scripture doesn't say anything about any purgatory being a final purification of the elect. Nor does it say anything about a mortal sin.

Stranger
That's false.
I gave you several verses about the final purgation. And as for Mortal Sin - just go to 1 John 5:16.
 

Stranger

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That's false.
I gave you several verses about the final purgation. And as for Mortal Sin - just go to 1 John 5:16.

You gave verses the Roman Church uses to support a so-called purgatory. But none that prove any such thing.

(1John 5:16) speaks of a sin unto death, not to a sin that severs our relationship with God, or causes any loss of salvation.

Stranger
 

pia

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My answer to the OP is: No! It is not possible for a believer to lose salvation.

If anyone can lose salvation after becoming saved that means God does not have the power to save, for the wages of sin (singular) is death. In other words, it only takes one sin to send anyone in hell. If there remain even one sin in a believer’s life after death then he is still accountable for that sin and he can never, never repay for that sin now nor ever. If he could he wouldn’t need a savior.

The truth is Jesus came down from heaven for that purpose and to give eternal life (Jo 10:27-29) to those He came to save. There is not one sin that Jesus did not pay for in the life of a believer. Hence, believers do not sin because they are born from above (1Jo 3:9; Jo 1:13). Do believers become sinless or not sin after becoming saved? Not at all. There is a commentary on this in Ro 7:15-25.

Jesus promised that He will not leave nor forsake the believers (Heb 13:5), and that He will be with them always till the end of the world (Mt 28:20). Do these scriptures and those mentioned above sound like a believer can lose salvation after conversion? And here is the kicker, scripture proof as you will, that a believer can never lose his salvation: “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Co 5:8). GLORY! ALLELUIA!

In other words when a believer dies his body goes to the grave but in his soul existence he goes to be with the Lord in heaven. In contrast, when an unsaved dies, both his body and soul goes to the grave to await judgment.

Many people do not really understand salvation and the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” which by the way, is clearly taught in Scriptures. These people use scriptures that apparently proves a believer can lose salvation after becoming saved. One of many such scriptures used is Hebrews 6 but with careful reading and study the meaning of these verses are not what they really perceived them to mean. And they didn’t take into account verse 9. These people have altogether been wrong in their interpretation of Hebrews 6 and, if wrong, could also be wrong in their interpretation of other scriptures as well.

The key to unlocking Hebrews 6:4-6 is to be able to understand and define the meaning of the phrases: “Once enlightened,” “Have tasted of the heavenly gift,” “Were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “Have tasted the good word,” “Powers of the world to come,” and “If they shall fall away.”

The most critical and misunderstood phrase I believe is “If they shall fall away.” This term means “ to turn away” and is NOT speaking of a believer. The commentary on this is found in Isaiah 55:6-11 and Hebrews 3:17-19 answers Hebrews 6:9.

“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His
judgments, and His ways past finding out!

To God Be The Glory
Hello there. This is most likely the best scripture referenced post I have read on this subject and praise God for your understanding......I got it baby style, after pestering the Lord for years to understand what seemed like a 'you lose' clause of Salvation. He showed me with a glass of cordial. After I mixed the water with the cordial, He merely said :" Now separate them again.".......I said :" I can't Lord.".........He said :" Exactly." Thank you so much for posting . :)
 
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Helen

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Hello there. This is most likely the best scripture referenced post I have read on this subject and praise God for your understanding......I got it baby style, after pestering the Lord for years to understand what seemed like a 'you lose' clause of Salvation. He showed me with a glass of cordial. After I mixed the water with the cordial, He merely said :" Now separate them again.".......I said :" I can't Lord.".........He said :" Exactly." Thank you so much for posting . :)

Love that story about the cordial...excellent illustration :D One of the best I've heard.
 

pia

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Love that story about the cordial...excellent illustration :D One of the best I've heard.
I was sitting here giggling at the memory......Then I thought, how happy I was that He was always kind enough to treat me as a child ( since I knew practically nothing )..........But then I thought :" Wait a minute, am I still a child in His eyes?" I'm not always sure it is a good thing, but it sure makes it easier to understand for someone like me :) Love so much of what I have found of yours so far.......I truly wish people would discern your wisdom, there are a couple of really wise people on this forum. Great stuff ! Peace always Pia
 

BreadOfLife

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I see. The Roman Church and others see a need for purgatory. So they find Scriptures and apocrypha to use to support that need.

But Scripture doesn't say anything about any purgatory being a final purification of the elect. Nor does it say anything about a mortal sin.

Stranger
Ummm, first of all - there is no such thing as "The Roman Church", as I've had to explain to you on several occasions now.

Secondly - I've just shown you several Scriptural proof texts for the doctrine of Purgatory/Final purgation.

Finally - the seven Deuterocanonical Books that Luther threw out are not apocryphal works - but inspired Scripture.
 

BreadOfLife

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You gave verses the Roman Church uses to support a so-called purgatory. But none that prove any such thing.

(1John 5:16) speaks of a sin unto death, not to a sin that severs our relationship with God, or causes any loss of salvation.

Stranger
"Sin unto death" is talking about spiritual death.
Gee - I'd call that pretty "mortal" . . .
 

Jun2u

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Hello there. This is most likely the best scripture referenced post I have read on this subject and praise God for your understanding......I got it baby style, after pestering the Lord for years to understand what seemed like a 'you lose' clause of Salvation. He showed me with a glass of cordial. After I mixed the water with the cordial, He merely said :" Now separate them again.".......I said :" I can't Lord.".........He said :" Exactly." Thank you so much for posting . :)


Thank you for those kind words. All glory belong to the Holy Spirit. Before I open my Bible I pray to the Holy Spirit to open my spiritual eyes to all truths, because I know nothing, teach me.

And, you are most welcome. I hope and pray I can continue to do the same with future posts.

To God Be The Glory
 
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tbhbread

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I don't believe it's possible, personally. Your salvation is not dictated by you, it is dictated by God. So a loss of salvation, is just proof of an unbeliever trying to claim Christianity.
 

BreadOfLife

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Thank you for those kind words. All glory belong to the Holy Spirit. Before I open my Bible I pray to the Holy Spirit to open my spiritual eyes to all truths, because I know nothing, teach me.

And, you are most welcome. I hope and pray I can continue to do the same with future posts.

To God Be The Glory
Just a question:
What about all of the people who have done just what you described and came out with completely different interpretations of Scripture?
Which one of you is right and which one is wrong?
 

Jun2u

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"Sin unto death" is talking about spiritual death.
Gee - I'd call that pretty "mortal" . . .


Whether venial/mortal does not make any difference. Sin is sin!

"The wages of sin (singular) is death."
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

To God Be The Glory
 
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Jun2u

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Just a question:
What about all of the people who have done just what you described and came out with completely different interpretations of Scripture?
Which one of you is right and which one is wrong?

I don't believe the Holy Spirit will not give truth when asks by a believer. Jesus promised He will send another comforter and guide us into all truths. There is only one truth and one Gospel and that is circumscribed by the Bible! Not by the Catholic Church and that is the difference.

To God Be The Glory
 
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