Importance of Doctrine

mjrhealth · Aug 12, 2017

Stranger said:
I have showed where Scripture says Jesus Christ had a doctrine. Are you denying that?

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

As I said, empty vessels, so few are willing.

amadeus · Aug 12, 2017

Stranger said:
Did you consider the Scriptures I gave concerning 'doctrine'? Which do you prefer, the words of a president or the words of God.

Was Lincoln even a Christian? But, what does that matter....right?

Stranger

In answer to your question, yes, I believe that Lincoln was a Christian. Some disagree because some of his ways were opposed to many main stream Christian denominations, but then so were some of the ways of Jesus.

Did you also consider my words as well as those of Lincoln:

It might be possible for a person to precisely state his beliefs definitely, but if he is growing, would not his beliefs be likely to change or to be
changed so they no longer fit the stated definition anymore?

We do need to be growing spiritually and as we do so what we believe today may be different that what we believed yesterday. If the changes are because we are following God's lead, then are they not good? The apostle Paul does address this here:

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-14

Some people attend church services in some assembly faithfully, but they don't even carry a Bible with them to the service and the minister reads or preaches for only a short time. For many that short time is all the scripture they consume all week. The rest of the time they either purposely or otherwise consume hours of this world's garbage on the Internet, TV, at school, at work, etc. But, they will quickly claim to be God's people and they claim that they will be with Him forever upon natural death. If they do not choose to be with Him as much time as possible now, what reward should they really expect.

We can work up on doctrines and our statements of faith, but what is needed, I believe, is a 24/7 dedication to God by applying ourselves to all that we have available [for example the entirety of the Bible] and the leading of the Holy Spirit in everything that we do. These are impossible things for our flesh alone, but why should we be doing them alone. Do we not serve an omnipotent God who wants to help us?

FHII · Aug 12, 2017

amadeus said:
In answer to your question, yes, I believe that Lincoln was a Christian. Some disagree because some of his ways were opposed to many main stream Christian denominations, but then so were some of the ways of Jesus.

Did you also consider my words as well as those of Lincoln:

We do need to be growing spiritually and as we do so what we believe today may be different that what we believed yesterday. If the changes are because we are following God's lead, then are they not good? The apostle Paul does address this here:

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-14

Some people attend church services in some assembly faithfully, but they don't even carry a Bible with them to the service and the minister reads or preaches for only a short time. For many that short time is all the scripture they consume all week. The rest of the time they either purposely or otherwise consume hours of this world's garbage on the Internet, TV, at school, at work, etc. But, they will quickly claim to be God's people and they claim that they will be with Him forever upon natural death. If they do not choose to be with Him as much time as possible now, what reward should they really expect.

We can work up on doctrines and our statements of faith, but what is needed, I believe, is a 24/7 dedication to God by applying ourselves to all that we have available [for example the entirety of the Bible] and the leading of the Holy Spirit in everything that we do. These are impossible things for our flesh alone, but why should we be doing them alone. Do we not serve an omnipotent God who wants to help us?

I agree. Its been a while since I've done this, but I pay homage to all fokks that post here. Right or wrong, they at least have made the step to seek.

I love preachers and churches, but unfortunately you are right. Lot of folks only pick up Jesus from 8 to 11 on Sunday.

pia · Aug 12, 2017

'The importance of Doctrine' this says......Whatever happened to ' The importance of relationship' ?
Do most really think for one minute that our Father, Jesus and The Holy Spirit went through ALL: that they went through, not to mention the millennia of preparation, since the garden where our Father first lost His relationship with Adam and thus mankind......., just so people could read about it someday????
Everything Jesus did, was to make things possible for us to once again have relationship/fellowship with our Father, through His Word and His Holy Spirit.
Why do people constantly want to replace the reality of closeness and oneness, with a sort of 'pen pal' situation ? Makes no sense really. Unless people are willing to see, that what ever it is they have been taught, from whoever taught them, that if they don't have the awareness of His reality, they have not been taught the full picture. Doesn't any Christian ever stop and think:" Is this all there is?", when they go to church or when they read things in the Bible that may not make a lick of sense to them.
Obviously His reality isn't just going to come barging into your world, that would probably scare you half to death, but IF we ask / call, if we seek, and if we 'knock'......He WILL reveal things, as we are able to bear them. The other thing of course if faith, which is kind of like the way to 'activate' things between this world and His...Let us rejoice in knowing Him, as we are known by Him.......

Stranger · Aug 13, 2017

amadeus said:
In answer to your question, yes, I believe that Lincoln was a Christian. Some disagree because some of his ways were opposed to many main stream Christian denominations, but then so were some of the ways of Jesus.

Did you also consider my words as well as those of Lincoln:

We do need to be growing spiritually and as we do so what we believe today may be different that what we believed yesterday. If the changes are because we are following God's lead, then are they not good? The apostle Paul does address this here:

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-14

Some people attend church services in some assembly faithfully, but they don't even carry a Bible with them to the service and the minister reads or preaches for only a short time. For many that short time is all the scripture they consume all week. The rest of the time they either purposely or otherwise consume hours of this world's garbage on the Internet, TV, at school, at work, etc. But, they will quickly claim to be God's people and they claim that they will be with Him forever upon natural death. If they do not choose to be with Him as much time as possible now, what reward should they really expect.

We can work up on doctrines and our statements of faith, but what is needed, I believe, is a 24/7 dedication to God by applying ourselves to all that we have available [for example the entirety of the Bible] and the leading of the Holy Spirit in everything that we do. These are impossible things for our flesh alone, but why should we be doing them alone. Do we not serve an omnipotent God who wants to help us?

So, you said all that to say you did not consider the Scriptures I gave you. You simply ramble on about growing spiritually as if that should be opposed to having a sound doctrine.

And why do you believe Lincoln was a Christian...cause he freed the slaves?

Stranger

keras · Aug 13, 2017

The wisdom of Elihu the Buzite:
Job 31:2-4 What is the lot [for mankind] prescribed by God above? Is it not disaster for the wrongdoer? God Himself sees my ways and takes account of every step.

Job 31:5-6 I swear- I have had no dealings with falsehood. I have taken an oath, never to let my eyes linger on a woman. Let God weigh me in the scales of justice and He will know that I am blameless.

Job 34:10-11 But listen to me, you people of good sense. Far be it from God to do evil. For He requites everyone according to their actions and sees that each gets the reward their conduct deserves.
Job 34:31-32 Suppose you were to say to God; I have overstepped the mark, but I will do no more wrong. I am contemptible, grant me guidance. Will He, at those words forgive your rejection of Him?

Job 35:9-12 People cry out under the weight of oppression and call for help against the power of their oppressors. But none of them asks; Where is God, my maker? who gives protection and grants knowledge. So, when they cry out, He does not answer because they are proud and wicked, All to no purpose, the Almighty takes no notice.

Job 36:13-14 The proud rage against Him and refuse to ask Him for help when caught in troubles, so they die in their prime – short lived as male prostitutes.

Job 36:15 Those who suffer He rescues through suffering and teaches them by the discipline of affliction.

Job 37:19-20 Teach us, then what to say to God, for all is dark and we cannot marshal our thoughts. Should He be told what it is I want to speak? Surely I would be swallowed up.

Job 37:21 Now, no one can look at the sun, bright as it is in the skies after the wind has swept them clean.

Job 37:22-23 Out of the North, He comes in golden splendor and awesome majesty.
The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power, yet in His great righteousness, He does not pervert justice.

Job 37:24 Therefore, mortals pay Him reverence and all who are wise fear Him. Reference: REB,NIV,KJV some verses abridged

The Book of Job teaches us a lot about how God interacts with His creation. In chapter 31, Job protests his innocence, then the discourse of Elihu says that God requites everyone according to their deeds and He allows for people who live without the benefit of the Bible, Romans 1:19-22
But we who do have His Word, will be in a very bad situation if we fail to read it carefully and worse: if we jump to wrong conclusions.
Job 37:21-22 may allude to the Lords Day of vengeance. Isaiah 30:26

bbyrd009 · Aug 13, 2017

Stranger said:
Was Lincoln even a Christian? But, what does that matter....right?

amen

amadeus · Aug 13, 2017

Stranger said:
So, you said all that to say you did not consider the Scriptures I gave you. You simply ramble on about growing spiritually as if that should be opposed to having a sound doctrine.

And why do you believe Lincoln was a Christian...cause he freed the slaves?

Stranger

I am no real student of Lincoln. Long ago I read a couple of books about him and his life. They covered some of his good points as well as the not so good ones. He made a lot of mistakes, but my impression of him came was closer to that of King David than that of King Saul. Of course, I could be wrong about the way it ended for him with God, but, then how it ended with him and God was never my decision to make.

As to growing, I did supply you with John 3:30, but also consider these:

"And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel." Luke 1:80
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:11-12

Armadillo · Aug 13, 2017

One can have a wrong doctrine but the right heart and even with doctrinal error, Jesus gives a revelation of His love.

Example, Mary Magdalene at the tomb believing Jesus is still dead and asks the gardener where He is and even though she walked and talked with Jesus she didn't know the gardener was Jesus. It's a serious doctrinal flaw not believing in the resurrection but Jesus doesn't turn her away, He reveals Himself by saying her name and her heart leapt with joy. Knowing Jesus is wonderful, having the right doctrine is great but what is more wonderful and great is knowing that Jesus loves you, knows you by name and will reveal Himself to you.

Stranger · Aug 13, 2017

amadeus said:
I am no real student of Lincoln. Long ago I read a couple of books about him and his life. They covered some of his good points as well as the not so good ones. He made a lot of mistakes, but my impression of him came was closer to that of King David than that of King Saul. Of course, I could be wrong about the way it ended for him with God, but, then how it ended with him and God was never my decision to make.

As to growing, I did supply you with John 3:30, but also consider these:

"And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel." Luke 1:80
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:11-12

I'm all for maturing and growing as a believer. How does that mean I shouldn't have a sound doctrine? And Lincoln was no King David.

Stranger

Helen · Aug 13, 2017

Stranger said:
So, you said all that to say you did not consider the Scriptures I gave you. You simply ramble on about growing spiritually as if that should be opposed to having a sound doctrine.

And why do you believe Lincoln was a Christian...cause he freed the slaves?

Stranger

The above quote was not written to me...but I read all threads.
Just a simple question.
Can you tell me why you never sound happy, or sound relaxed..you always come across as forceful, assertive, and agressive. Almost like I dog I had, once , he would growl all the time he ate his food, just in case someone was thinking snatching it away from him!!
Just saying...

Helen · Aug 13, 2017

Armadillo said:
One can have a wrong doctrine but the right heart and even with doctrinal error, Jesus gives a revelation of His love.

Example, Mary Magdalene at the tomb believing Jesus is still dead and asks the gardener where He is and even though she walked and talked with Jesus she didn't know the gardener was Jesus. It's a serious doctrinal flaw not believing in the resurrection but Jesus doesn't turn her away, He reveals Himself by saying her name and her heart leapt with joy. Knowing Jesus is wonderful, having the right doctrine is great but what is more wonderful and great is knowing that Jesus loves you, knows you by name and will reveal Himself to you.

Great post...100% agree..well said.

amadeus · Aug 13, 2017

Stranger said:
I'm all for maturing and growing as a believer. How does that mean I shouldn't have a sound doctrine? And Lincoln was no King David.

Stranger

I did not accuse you of not needing a sound doctrine. Sometimes, however, what is sound for us changes as we change or are changed for God. I have certainly been changed over the years, and I would hardly expect otherwise from other believers. We are not, however, all at exactly the same place at exactly the same time. This doesn't mean that one is better than another. What God is looking at is the heart which is more than a doctrine. As our heart changes sometimes our doctrines will also of necessity change. The best place to be at any given moment is where God wants us to be. To get there requires a surrender on out part to Him and then He will take us there. Each time we quench the Spirit in us, we stop or slow God's work. Too many quenches will put us with the majority of the natural children of Israel [Jacob] who repeated murmured and repented, until they along with Esau were able to find a place of repentance.

Stranger · Aug 13, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
The above quote was not written to me...but I read all threads.
Just a simple question.
Can you tell me why you never sound happy, or sound relaxed..you always come across as forceful, assertive, and agressive. Almost like I dog I had, once , he would growl all the time he ate his food, just in case someone was thinking snatching it away from him!!
Just saying...

Probably because I never am, happy or relaxed. The Lord brings us all through various trials and experiences to form what He wants in us. To make us what He wants. We may be both believers, but God's purpose for us is different.

You're observation is correct. I likened myself once to the same. I thought of writing a book once called, 'chained dog theology'. The experiences God puts one through to be that, are not pleasant. But sometimes the chained dog is what is needed.

True story: I couldn't have been older than 5 years. We had a dog we kept chained. He was not real big, but meaner than hell. No one in our family would dare pet him while he ate. My sister did and paid the price. He opened her hand up. His name was shorty. He was tied up.

One morning I was playing in the driveway in the dirt. This big dog came around and got in a fight with the neighbors dog and tore him up. And I was watching it. I made some noise and that dog got off the other dog and started walking towards where I was. As a kid, I couldn't move. Scared to death. Shorty was raising cain and yanking on his chain trying to get lose as the dog got closer. Before the other dog got to me Shorty had broke the link on his collar and chain. And all I saw was fur and teeth as he lit into the other dog. That is when I got the heck out of there and ran back to the house.

Though Shorty was a mean dog, a mean dog is what I needed at that time. A friendly dog would have done me no good. I guess we all have our place in the Body of Christ.

Stranger

Stranger · Aug 13, 2017

amadeus said:
I did not accuse you of not needing a sound doctrine. Sometimes, however, what is sound for us changes as we change or are changed for God. I have certainly been changed over the years, and I would hardly expect otherwise from other believers. We are not, however, all at exactly the same place at exactly the same time. This doesn't mean that one is better than another. What God is looking at is the heart which is more than a doctrine. As our heart changes sometimes our doctrines will also of necessity change. The best place to be at any given moment is where God wants us to be. To get there requires a surrender on out part to Him and then He will take us there. Each time we quench the Spirit in us, we stop or slow God's work. Too many quenches will put us with the majority of the natural children of Israel [Jacob] who repeated murmured and repented, until they along with Esau were able to find a place of repentance.

I disagree. Our doctrine should never change because our heart changes. We are to have a heart after God. And we are to have sound doctrine. Our heart doesn't dictate our doctrine. Our doctrine is due to the study of God's Word, the Bible, as led and revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. And that only. The only thing that should change our doctrine is if in our studies of God's Word, He reveals something to us that adds to or takes away from something we formerly believed.

I don't think Esau found repentance.

Stranger

amadeus · Aug 13, 2017

Stranger said:
I disagree. Our doctrine should never change because our heart changes. We are to have a heart after God. And we are to have sound doctrine. Our heart doesn't dictate our doctrine. Our doctrine is due to the study of God's Word, the Bible, as led and revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. And that only. The only thing that should change our doctrine is if in our studies of God's Word, He reveals something to us that adds to or takes away from something we formerly believed.

You may right on this point of the heart. My own example is recalled to me.

I grew up as Catholic, very devout and sincere, serving as an altar boy until I graduated from high school. From that I point I walked deep into the world and its ways. When God called me at age 32, it was into Oneness, Jesus Only Pentecost. As I had held fast to the Catholic doctrine I knew as long I was embedded in that church, so I also sincerely believed the doctrine of oneness Jesus only for close to 11 years. Then God called me out of that. Again my doctrines changes as my beliefs changed. I certainly know that there was a sincerity in my beliefs in each of the three places. My doctrines were certainly different in each place. This is why only God can render a fair judgment in any matter of faith or doctrine or salvation when it comes to that.

Jesus overcame the world [John 16:33]. What is it that we are to overcome so as to receive the rewards for overcomers in Revelation chapters 2 and 3?

I don't think Esau found repentance.

I agree. It was my typo using the word "able" when I had intended to use "unable"

Stranger · Aug 13, 2017

amadeus said:
You may right on this point of the heart. My own example is recalled to me.

I grew up as Catholic, very devout and sincere, serving as an altar boy until I graduated from high school. From that I point I walked deep into the world and its ways. When God called me at age 32, it was into Oneness, Jesus Only Pentecost. As I had held fast to the Catholic doctrine I knew as long I was embedded in that church, so I also sincerely believed the doctrine of oneness Jesus only for close to 11 years. Then God called me out of that. Again my doctrines changes as my beliefs changed. I certainly know that there was a sincerity in my beliefs in each of the three places. My doctrines were certainly different in each place. This is why only God can render a fair judgment in any matter of faith or doctrine or salvation when it comes to that.

Jesus overcame the world [John 16:33]. What is it that we are to overcome so as to receive the rewards for overcomers in Revelation chapters 2 and 3?

I agree. It was my typo using the word "able" when I had intended to use "unable"

You are an overcomer because of your faith in Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:5)

Stranger

amadeus · Aug 13, 2017

Stranger said:
You are an overcomer because of your faith in Jesus Christ. (1 John 5:5)

Stranger

While your answer is a good one it doesn't really answer my question. I see the answer in this verse describing three things that need to be overcome:

"For all that is in the world, 1) the lust of the flesh, and 2) the lust of the eyes, and 3) the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Those three things in us, when they are followed will lead us to sin. We are to overcome their attraction to us. Jesus came to provide the means to do so.

Too many people come to Jesus and believe there is nothing then left in them that needs to be done. I do not believe that. We start as babes in Christ, but we must grow into a maturity in Christ.

Helen · Aug 13, 2017

@Stranger ....thank you for talking time to answer my question.

But also...Do you not believe that we are called to " rest in Him' ..and live stress free lives , in TRUST?
I'd like to see you more confident in the Lord...He will bring all things into His order.
You are called to " enjoy the journey" ..not just enjoy the end bit.
"God walked with Adam in the cool of the evening."
I have a feeling that sometimes He almost has to 'run to catch up with you!!'

Every blessing ....H.

Job · Aug 13, 2017

Stranger said:
Probably because I never am, happy or relaxed.

Doesn't sound like a very pleasant existence.

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