The Lord comes to reveal His Glory among His own

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ScottA

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GINOLJC, first thanks for the response. second, I agree that the Kingdom came on Pentecost, the Holy Spirit, who is Christ. now the last part you stated that the second coming is only once. so, are you saying that Revelation 1:7 is already fulfilled?, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen". I be looking for your answer.
This convergence of time and eternity comes at different times for each person, as Paul explained: "each in his own order." Revelation 1:7 comes at "the end", which comes...each in his own order.
I clearly understand that the Lord Jesus have come in the flesh with blood. but do he not have flesh and bone NOW, but without blood. may I point you to the scripture for this, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have". here the Lord Jesus declares that he is spirit, but a spirit with flesh and bone, and NO BLOOD. this is his resurrected body which he took back to heaven, (the spiritual realms) which he is to return in according to Revelation 1:7 above which i stated.
so my question to you "do the Lord Jesus have a flesh and bone body without blood? yes or no.
No, Jesus gave his flesh as a sacrifice for all. Luke 24:39 is before his ascension into heaven, to the Father. If you recall, it was not his flesh which he committed to the Father, but only his spirit. Therefore, in reference to Revelation 1:7, look rather to Acts 1:11:

"This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.

...The "like manner" is the likeness of that which he committed to the Father. He comes in spirit.
 
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lforrest

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This convergence of time and eternity comes at different times for each person, as Paul explained: "each in his own order." Revelation 1:7 comes at "the end", which comes...each in his own order.
No, Jesus gave his flesh as a sacrifice for all. Luke 24:39 is before his ascension into heaven, to the Father. If you recall, if was not his flesh which he committed to the Father, but only his spirit. Therefore, in reference to Revelation 1:7, look rather to Acts 1:11:

"This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.

...The "like manner" is the likeness of that which he committed to the Father. He comes in spirit.

Yet his body went missing from the tomb. So what happened to it at the resurrection?
 

ScottA

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Yet his body went missing from the tomb. So what happened to it at the resurrection?
As it is written:

"Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it."

This is what is meant by the words "born again of the spirit of God" and "the last Adam, a life giving spirit", and "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me", "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh." This is the testimony saying "Christ has come in the flesh."
 
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101G

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No, Jesus gave his flesh as a sacrifice for all. Luke 24:39 is before his ascension into heaven, to the Father. If you recall, it was not his flesh which he committed to the Father, but only his spirit. Therefore, in reference to Revelation 1:7, look rather to Acts 1:11:
thanks for the response, but one problem like manner is that they saw him go up. as Acts 1:11 states. I suggest read Gill's commentary on this.

second, you said, "it was not his flesh which he committed to the Father, but only his spirit". true, it was his spirit that was poured out on Pentecost. because another word for commit is "PROMISE". and this spirit that was poured out on Pentecost was that promise spirit, Acts 2:14-21 "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved". and this salvation is backed up by what the apostle Peter said, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". see, this is what was committed (Promised) to the Father, now lets clearly see this in scripture. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever". why pray the father? answer, that which he "committed"/commend or promise was to be poured out. the key to understand this in the word commend, which can be translated as "PROMISE". now we can see the true meaning of what the Lord Jesus was saying on the cross.

so with that I must disagree with your assessment.

lastly this order you mention is not before the resurrection, but after, or all men. christ the first fruit, and those that are his. this is the order. now this is what i get from the scripture. and every man will see his FACE and before any other. Revelation 22:1-7. and that's when he comes.

peace in Christ Jesus,
 

keras

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imo you out yourself here as a worrier about the world, and you cannot help but make pointless and incorrect divinations about the future with this pov. You don't think today has enough issues of its own, keras?
What I do is promote the Prophetic Word.
God has given us a lot of information about His plans for His Creation and us. You seem to want to ignore it, that is to your discredit.
Jesus said: we should not worry about today. Luke 12:27

Re the Kingdom: Luke 12: Have no fear, little flock, for the Father has chosen to give the Kingdom to you.
 
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ScottA

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thanks for the response, but one problem like manner is that they saw him go up. as Acts 1:11 states. I suggest read Gill's commentary on this.

second, you said, "it was not his flesh which he committed to the Father, but only his spirit". true, it was his spirit that was poured out on Pentecost. because another word for commit is "PROMISE". and this spirit that was poured out on Pentecost was that promise spirit, Acts 2:14-21 "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved". and this salvation is backed up by what the apostle Peter said, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". see, this is what was committed (Promised) to the Father, now lets clearly see this in scripture. John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever". why pray the father? answer, that which he "committed"/commend or promise was to be poured out. the key to understand this in the word commend, which can be translated as "PROMISE". now we can see the true meaning of what the Lord Jesus was saying on the cross.

so with that I must disagree with your assessment.

lastly this order you mention is not before the resurrection, but after, or all men. christ the first fruit, and those that are his. this is the order. now this is what i get from the scripture. and every man will see his FACE and before any other. Revelation 22:1-7. and that's when he comes.

peace in Christ Jesus,
Thank you.

Gill may be a swell guy, but better the Holy Spirit.

Either way, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." But you error to think that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit means to include the flesh. It does not, for this is what it means to be born again of the spirit of God - to become a new creation.

As for the order, you are correct with the order of the resurrection, the first and the second. But I was referring to the individual order, as Paul made clear: "each in his own order."
 

101G

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Thank you.

Gill may be a swell guy, but better the Holy Spirit.

Either way, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." But you error to think that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit means to include the flesh. It does not, for this is to be born again of the spirit of God - a new creation.

As for the order, you are correct with the order of the resurrection, the first and the second. But I was referring to the individual order, as Paul made clear: "each in his own order."
No, error on your part, I never said the out pouring is with flesh. no, only Spirit.

second, his resurrected FLESH and BONE can inherit, but he have NO BLOOD, I believe I made that statement. this is backed up by scripture, listen, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have". flesh and bone can enter, just without BLOOD. so again I must disagree with your assessment. see, the key is NO BLOOD. understand, flesh and bone "WITH" BLOOD cannot inherit, but flesh and bone can.

now as for his second Appearance, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation". understand Scott, his second coming is TWO-FOLD, first in Spirit which we agree, but also in bodily form which "EVERY EYE SEE". the firs return was not observable, but the one yet to come is bodily.
 

ScottA

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No, error on your part, I never said the out pouring is with flesh. no, only Spirit.
My point was that the outpouring of the spirit upon all flesh, did not mean that flesh was included in the resurrection. It means that Christ [in spirit] has come in the flesh [of men], i.e. "to live is Christ." This is the testimony of which it is written (1 John 4:2), of those whom are born again of the spirit of God - that Christ has returned.
second, his resurrected FLESH and BONE can inherit, but he have NO BLOOD, I believe I made that statement. this is backed up by scripture, listen, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have". flesh and bone can enter, just without BLOOD. so again I must disagree with your assessment. see, the key is NO BLOOD. understand, flesh and bone "WITH" BLOOD cannot inherit, but flesh and bone can.
This is not biblical. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." What you are speaking of was Christ bodily rising from the dead (taking death captive), which is no indication of what happens in the resurrection of the living...those were two different events. Rather, it is what happened at His ascension that shows what occurs in the resurrection... Which He clearly spoke of to Mary, saying, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father." Nevertheless, it was not flesh or bone which He committed to the Father.
now as for his second Appearance, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation". understand Scott, his second coming is TWO-FOLD, first in Spirit which we agree, but also in bodily form which "EVERY EYE SEE". the firs return was not observable, but the one yet to come is bodily.
No. He did not say, "I shall come again and again." But rather, we are to understand not that "every eye shall see" means He will lower himself again a second time having "finished", but that "every eye shall see"...the judgement, meaning none shall escape.
 

101G

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My point was that the outpouring of the spirit upon all flesh, did not mean that flesh was included in the resurrection. It means that Christ [in spirit] has come in the flesh [of men], i.e. "to live is Christ." This is the testimony of which it is written (1 John 4:2), of those whom are born again of the spirit of God - that Christ has returned.
First, thanks for the response. second, error again on your part. you said, "My point was that the outpouring of the spirit upon all flesh, did not mean that flesh was included in the resurrection".
is not the Lord Jesus the first resurrected form the dead?... Yes, again listen, scripture, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have". understand Scott the Lord Jesus is a "spirit" have flesh and bone, not the flesh and bone that came out of Mary, NO, but changed flesh and bone without blood. he have a body, but a resurrected one. listen carefully. a resurrected body don't mean it's immaterial or ethereal, no, a resurrected body simply means a body that is dominated by the Spirit that's in it. and John, while on Patmos saw that GLORIFIED BODY. and when our Lord set in Judgment separating his sheep from the goats this is not an spiritual act, but a physical one. here every eye will see him.

third, the Lord Jesus must have a body 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". so according to you the wrath have came". scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (WE CAN STOP RIGHT THERE, POINT MADE). that body that sits in heaven, which contains the diversified spirit of God is our mediator. scripture, 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". all men have bodies, and so do Christ.

fourth, as for Christ in us, Christ the Holy Spirit is out guide and teacher so that we may walk/live his way, because we have become "sons of God". but we will see his face so saith the scripture, Revelation 22:4 "And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads". understand Scott, God from the beginning, made man in his OWN image. Spiritual is God's character, Holiness which is IN US. but the image that contains that Holiness is flesh and bone. Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God". and God raised up his tabernacle on the third day, and glorified it by the resurrection. yes, that flesh and bone.

so again I must disagree with your assessment.
 

ScottA

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First, thanks for the response. second, error again on your part. you said, "My point was that the outpouring of the spirit upon all flesh, did not mean that flesh was included in the resurrection".
is not the Lord Jesus the first resurrected form the dead?... Yes, again listen, scripture, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have". understand Scott the Lord Jesus is a "spirit" have flesh and bone, not the flesh and bone that came out of Mary, NO, but changed flesh and bone without blood. he have a body, but a resurrected one. listen carefully. a resurrected body don't mean it's immaterial or ethereal, no, a resurrected body simply means a body that is dominated by the Spirit that's in it. and John, while on Patmos saw that GLORIFIED BODY. and when our Lord set in Judgment separating his sheep from the goats this is not an spiritual act, but a physical one. here every eye will see him.

third, the Lord Jesus must have a body 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". so according to you the wrath have came". scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (WE CAN STOP RIGHT THERE, POINT MADE). that body that sits in heaven, which contains the diversified spirit of God is our mediator. scripture, 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". all men have bodies, and so do Christ.

fourth, as for Christ in us, Christ the Holy Spirit is out guide and teacher so that we may walk/live his way, because we have become "sons of God". but we will see his face so saith the scripture, Revelation 22:4 "And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads". understand Scott, God from the beginning, made man in his OWN image. Spiritual is God's character, Holiness which is IN US. but the image that contains that Holiness is flesh and bone. Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God". and God raised up his tabernacle on the third day, and glorified it by the resurrection. yes, that flesh and bone.

so again I must disagree with your assessment.
Sorry, but you cannot reconcile all that you and I have quoted from the scriptures (which I have reconciled for you).

Specifically, you cannot reconcile "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." As well as, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new", and "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it." And by quoting "that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be" you should know better.

So, I leave you to your studies.
 

101G

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Scott, I have one question, maybe this can put an end to all of this. If you said that the Lord Jesus the Christ, (the Son) have already came and only one time. Question why wait for the Son from heaven when as you said have already come and that was it, the only one time. Listen, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come”. by the son coming on Pentecost why wait again?
 

101G

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Sorry, but you cannot reconcile all that you and I have quoted from the scriptures (which I have reconciled for you).

Specifically, you cannot reconcile "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." As well as, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new", and "Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it." And by quoting "that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be" you should know better.

So, I leave you to your studies.
.
I Must disagree again, I did prove it in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse starting at verse 35. and please respond to my post #33

Thanks in Christ.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, if anybody was lost with the commend, or commit statement made earlier, it is clearly laid out in John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever".
Give here is the Greek word, G1325 δίδωμι didomi (d̮iy'-d̮ō-miy) v. to give. The KJV can translate the word as, notice the bold word.
KJV: adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield

There is our word, “commit” and what was committed unto the Father? The Spirit. for the Spirit was the "promise", which the prophet Joel recorded, Joel 2:28 & 29, and if one would notice "spirit" in verse 28 it's small cap.... (smile).

be well in Christ Jesus.
 

ScottA

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Scott, I have one question, maybe this can put an end to all of this. If you said that the Lord Jesus the Christ, (the Son) have already came and only one time. Question why wait for the Son from heaven when as you said have already come and that was it, the only one time. Listen, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come”. by the son coming on Pentecost why wait again?
Paul spoke to both those who had received Christ in spirit and to those who had not yet received the spirit, but in that passage he spoke specifically to those who had not yet received Christ in spirit...so he told them to wait.

So, to answer your question, it is only those who believe, but have not yet received the Holy Spirit, who must wait.

Speaking of those who wait, John said it best: "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." ...But even John had not yet been lead "unto all truth" by the Holy Spirit at that time, because...it is a thing that is "revealed."

But understand, even having received the Holy Spirit, all has not been revealed for a reason - that the fullness of the gentiles should come first. Yet, what I declare to you, I declare - because it is now revealed.
 

ScottA

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I Must disagree again, I did prove it in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse starting at verse 35. and please respond to my post #33

Thanks in Christ.
No...it says "not that body."
 

101G

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Paul spoke to both those who had received Christ in spirit and to those who had not yet received the spirit, but in that passage he spoke specifically to those who had not yet received Christ in spirit...so he told them to wait.

So, to answer your question, it is only those who believe, but have not yet received the Holy Spirit, who must wait.

Speaking of those who wait, John said it best: "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." ...But even John had not yet been lead "unto all truth" by the Holy Spirit at that time, because...it is a thing that is "revealed."

But understand, even having received the Holy Spirit, all has not been revealed for a reason - that the fullness of the gentiles should come first. Yet, what I declare to you, I declare - because it is now revealed.

thanks for the response. but Scott, that's a bad excuse. they was already followers, 1 Thessalonians 1:6 "And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost". that reproved your assessment as not having the Holy Ghost. see, it was, 2 Thessalonians 1:7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day".

so Scott, no, go back and learn some more.

Peace in Christ.
 

ScottA

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thanks for the response. but Scott, that's a bad excuse. they was already followers, 1 Thessalonians 1:6 "And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost". that reproved your assessment as not having the Holy Ghost. see, it was, 2 Thessalonians 1:7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day".

so Scott, no, go back and learn some more.

Peace in Christ.
In 1 Thessalonians Paul speaks in past tense of the coming of the Lord in spirit, and in 2 Thessalonians he speaks in future tense of the end when He is revealed to all, including "those who trouble you", in the judgement.

Of course He shall be revealed at "the end" and in "the judgement" - that is the end. But Paul is not contradicting Jesus or lumping the two passages together as you now are, when he speaks of their time of trouble in 1 Thessalonians ("And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.")...nor can you now do so and be correct.

You are mistaken, and are in no position to correct me.
 

101G

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Of course He shall be revealed at "the end" and in "the judgement" - that is the end. But Paul is not contradicting Jesus or lumping the two passages together as you now are, when he speaks of their time of trouble in 1 Thessalonians ("And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.")...nor can you now do so and be correct.

You are mistaken, and are in no position to correct me.
GINOLJC, first thanks for the response, second, right "I'm in no position to correct you", but the word of God is. you made the point, and I quote, "Paul spoke to both those who had received Christ in spirit and to those who had not yet received the spirit, but in that passage he spoke specifically to those who had not yet received Christ in spirit...so he told them to wait.
So, to answer your question, it is only those who believe, but have not yet received the Holy Spirit, who must wait".

Let the word of God correct you.
A. was they believers? yes,
1 Thessalonians 1:7 "So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia".

B. did they have the Holy Ghost?
the very first verse in the opening tells us, 1 Thessalonians 1:1 "Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ". they was "IN" God, who is Spirit. now, was the Holy Ghost in them? yes, 1 Thessalonians 1:6 "And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost". so the word of God, not me CORRECTS you.

then you said,
In 1 Thessalonians Paul speaks in past tense of the coming of the Lord in spirit, and in 2 Thessalonians he speaks in future tense of the end when He is revealed to all, including "those who trouble you", in the judgement.
the word of God do not agree with you there. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". here is your contradiction. see that word "delivered", it have an "ed" on the end to show past tense, meaning it already happen. so the question, "What was "US" we delivered from? answer, "wrath", when is this wrath? answer to come, (future). now, according to you, the Lord Jesus came on Pentecost, and according to you he only came that one time. so the question arise, "why wait for someone who have already came?". and the apostle wrote this after Pentecost.
that's mistake #1,

now, mistake #2, you said, "in 2 Thessalonians he speaks in future tense of the end when He is revealed to all, including "those who trouble you", in the judgement". no, he told them that in 1 Thessalonians already, scripture, 1 Thessalonians 2:13 "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all me". so they suffered, but the question as you said about future revealing, "in 2 Thessalonians he speaks in future tense of the end when He is revealed to all". if he's revealed to all, at the END, as you said, "WHY IS HE COMING FROM HEAVEN TO BE REVEALED WHEN HE IS ALREADY HERE?".

I hope you see your mistake, and again, you're right, I can't correct you, but the word of God can.

Peace in Christ Jesus.