Sola Fide

tabletalk said:

Even though Romans 4 says : 2. "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Also: 5." But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,.."
And: 9...."For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised." I imagine you know these verses well. So you must believe Abraham wasn't accounted righteous by faith alone?

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Hi Tabletalk,

If you take out the word "alone" we would be on common ground. How about if we look at the fullness of scripture to get the full picture. Start with James 2:14-26 and that pretty much sums it all up. However, I am willing to go deeper into scripture to make my point.

Do you think God saw Abraham’s saving faith in Gen. 15:6? I believe He did. So why did God have to see if Abrahams faith was genuine by ‘staging’ the test he gave him later on in life in Genesis 22:12?

In Gen. 22:12 we know how Abraham passed God’s test of faith. How did he pass that test? By his faith alone or what he did (was about to DO)?

How did Abraham become greatly blessed in Gen. 22:16-17? By his faith alone or what he did?

The sign of the covenant was circumcision. What would have happened if Abraham had refused to cut off his foreskin? What if Abraham had refused to sacrifice his son? Would his obedience or disobedience have entered into the equation? Would God have said "You disobeyed me but it's OK....Your still a righteous man. Enter into heaven."

Is it the faith that is being justified by works.....or is it the man?

Mary

FHII said:

See tabletalks reply. If that is not enough then the actually is plenty more.

Yea... I actually know many of those verses and they don't counter grace through faith. Its your burden to tell me how those verses apply. Not mine.

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Hi FHII,

I responded to tabletalk in case your interested.

I would like to make sure I am understanding you before I fully respond. Are you saying one can only receive grace by having faith?

Or if this makes more sense: One has to have faith BEFORE they can receive grace?

Mary

FHII said:

I don't think Marymog really believes Peter was Satan. She has a much different agenda. I just wasn't going to play her game.

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Hi FHII,

You are correct. I do not believe Peter was Satan. My point is a person can take ONE line from scripture and say...See, it's true. Peter was satan because Jesus said he was.

My "agenda" (point) is that we must look at the FULLNESS OF SCRIPTURE instead of finding the one or two or three lines that fit our agenda.

Love Mary

"ByGrace" said:

You haven't made on yet. Even a child at Sunday School understands what Jesus was saying...Peter also understood. It is a silly childish argument and you well know it!

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My goodness ByGrace...I am being silly and childish? Sticks and stones.....

My point is that some on this forum find one or two or three lines in scripture that fit what they believe about a certain subject and disregard the rest of scripture about the same subject that doesn't fit what they believe. They even go as far as to not fully quote the line from scripture that they say supports their belief. Once you fully quote the line that they use (or put it in context) to jusify their belief and you show them that they are wrong, they still say they are right based on the 10 words they found out of a 50 word paragraph. My 10 words are, Jesus turned to Peter and said "Get behind me Satan...

So if I am silly and childish for doing that then so are a lot of other members on this forum. At least I admit I am doing it.

Mary

"it rains on the evil and the good"

bbyrd009 said:

"it rains on the evil and the good"

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But only one makes it to heaven.

FHII said:

Since you addressed it to him, I will let him have first crack at it. If he doesn't reply, maybe I will.
According to the words of Paul, yes. The entire 4th chapter of Romans discusses that. By the way, though it speaks of Abraham's faith, its not about him offering up Isaac. You can go to Hebrews 11 to see whether that was faith or works.
You can also look at Romans 3:20-31, the entire book of Galatians and Eph 2 just for starters.
I am not so sure it isn't a simultaneous event.

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Good point. I agree with you. It probably is a simultaneous event.

You have me very confused. I am not sure we are on the same page.

Hebrews 11:17 says: 'By faith Abraham, when put to the test, offered up Isaac.' But you say though it speaks of Abrahams faith, it is not about him offering up Isaac? Are you talking about Romans 4 only?

Just so we are on the same page you are saying that "According to the words of Paul, yes.....one can only receive grace by having faith".

I just want to make sure I clearly understand you before I respond. One can only receive grace by having faith?

Curious Mary

Does FHII translate to FH2 or the alphabet II?...Just curious

Marymog said:

Is it the faith that is being justified by works.....or is it the man?

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Our believing in Jesus Christ makes us justified and Christ has a mountain of faith but if our faith does not meet up with His faith, how can one be justified? Without the faithfulness of Jesus and His atoning work, our faith doesn't amount to a hill of beans. We aren't righteous by our faith, we are righteous by His faith.

Romans 5:1 Galatians 2:20

Armadillo said:

Our believing in Jesus Christ makes us justified and Christ has a mountain of faith but if our faith does not meet up with His faith, how can one be justified? Without the faithfulness of Jesus and His atoning work, our faith doesn't amount to a hill of beans. We aren't righteous by our faith, we are righteous by His faith.
Romans 5:1 Galatians 2:20

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Armadillo,

I agree with you. We are righteous by our faith. But by faith ALONE?

Mary

Marymog said:

All I have to do is have faith? Never go to Church and have faith? Never help anyone in need and have faith? Never help the homeless and have faith? Never help ANYONE? Seriously?

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There was division in the Apostle Paul's day and there is a division to this present day. Paul did not back down from a no works salvation message. So yes, skip church and don't feed the homeless if that is what you are inclined to do because seriously, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

Marymog said:

I agree with you. We are righteous by our faith. But by faith ALONE?

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Ephesians 2:8

Armadillo said:

There was division in the Apostle Paul's day and there is a division to this present day. Paul did not back down from a no works salvation message. So yes, skip church and don't feed the homeless if that is what you are inclined to do because seriously, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

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Hi Armadillo,

So what am I to do with James 2:14-26 which says, in part: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Act like it was never said?

Mary

Armadillo said:

Ephesians 2:8

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That passage says 'by grace' you have been saved. It does not say by faith alone.

Have you another passage?

Curious Mary

FHII said:

The promise of Jacob is what Abraham had faith in (as pertaining to Rom 4).

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It's the not understanding of which covenant we are under that is one of the major issues for Christians. Too many pray as Abraham, Genesis 18:30. Abraham, afraid of God even after God told him this, Genesis 18:18 and despite this, it was his faith that God saw him as righteous, Romans 4:3 and it is our faith in Jesus, apart from the Law, that God says we are righteous, Romans 3:22.

Marymog said:

So what am I to do with James 2:14-26 which says, in part: You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

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Who was James speaking to? Who was his audience?

FHII said:

Romans 4 shows Abraham's faith not being by works through Isaac's birth. That chapter is not dealing with Abraham offering up Isaac. I sense people don't get that, and its pretty important to understand that. The promise of Jacob is what Abraham had faith in (as pertaining to Rom 4). Its actually a comedy of errors of sorts.

If you want to talk about Isaac being offered up, that's fine. Its not what is being discussed in Romans 4.

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Hi FHII,

I don't think I ever said that Isaac being offered up was being discussed in Romans 4. If I have please quote me.

I am looking at ALL OF SCRIPTURE. The fullness of scripture.

Once again: Hebrews 11:17 says: 'By faith Abraham, when put to the test, offered up Isaac.' When he offered up Isaac was that something he DID or was that just "faith alone"?

You never answered: Just so we are on the same page you are saying that "According to the words of Paul, yes.....one can only receive grace by having faith".

I just want to make sure I clearly understand you before I respond. One can only receive grace by having faith?

Curious Mary

Marymog said:

That passage says 'by grace' you have been saved. It does not say by faith alone.

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You need to go back and reread all the posts.

Marymog said:

But only one makes it to heaven.

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so you say, but i would argue that this pov of going to heaven after you die is a lie anyway, so we are maybe too far apart to even be talking coherently on the matter. Saul ended up in the same place as Samuel iow.

I don't know what i will be; but you are perhaps convinced that you will be "in heaven." As in like a place, with 4 dimensions or whatever.