Suicide: A guaranteed direct ticket to hell?

"ByGrace" said:

he was a Zealot and probably upset

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i think he wanted/hoped to manipulate Christ into wearing an earthly crown
hung himself when it didn't happen that way, even though he knew Christ could have walked right through them

Job said:

Not all believers are sealed.


Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’



It's obvious the people in that passage are believers. Why else would they do anything in Jesus name if they weren't.

For many are called but few are chosen. It is the chosen who are sealed.

o

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Can you say with 100% certainty you are sealed? I can. Do you think that Ananias and Sapphira were believers? I don't.

"ByGrace" said:

Not on subject as much...but I noticed you mention this.
An old man once told me why God could not ( not would not) allow Moses to into the Land.
Jesus could not be smitten twice , and we know the He was The Rock.
1 Cor 10, "...And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
God smote Christ on the cross once and for all.
Moses being a prophet should have known that..but e know in anger at the people he struck twice!
That answered for me the question that I had, about why God kept him out of the Land. Personally I don't believe God ever intended for Moses to enter.
God gave the Law to Moses...but the Land represents Promise.
We enter in to the spiritual land by grace through faith, not by law.
I liked that .

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The rock definitely was Christ. God told Moses to smite the rock the first time. But the second time He told him to speak to the rock. But Moses was angry with the people of God and spoke unadvisedly. And instead of speaking to the rock he smote the rock in his wrath. And God would not allow him to repent of it. (Ex. 17:4-7), (Num. 20:7-13), (Ps. 106:32-33) (Deut. 3:23-27) (Deut. 32:48-52)

My point was that Moses was a great and loved man by God. And Moses went to Heaven. But God would not allow him to repent of this sin. He brought him under judgement for it. But that judgement didn't keep Moses out of Heaven. It kept him out of the promised land of Israel that he promised to Abraham.

So, when a believer commits suicide, it doesn't keep them out of heaven. They are not a believer because they don't commit suicide. They are a believer because they have believed on Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Heaven is still their home.

I have pondered this question quite a lot. And in so doing have come up with some questions of my own. I say they are mine because I have never heard anyone else ask or say it. I ask them reverently and respectfully to God. Wasn't Jesus death a 'suicide'? No one could take His life from Him. He literally had to take His own. And, wasn't the Father responsible for His death, as it was the Father's plan of salvation? I think Jesus The Son bore the pain and cost for our salvation. But the Father bore an agonizing and tremendous pain...as it was His plan...His fault, if you will, for His Son's death.

Stranger

Job said:

Why else would they do anything in Jesus name if they weren't

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prestige our churches are filled with such men

Wrigley said:

What sin is it? And why on the surface is it unpardonable with no repentance?
What is the unpardonable sin as you understand it.

What is repentance to you?

Please know I am not going at you or trying to trip you up.
Just trying to understand where you are coming from.

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Hi Wrigley,
Spoke to a man of the cloth about this some years ago.
He said it's self-murder.
And it's the one sin for which you can't ask forgiveness because you're dead.

I told him that anyone who could committ suicide must be in a very bad state of mind and is not reasoning.

I also told him that we can never be sure if the person repented at the last moment when they realized they were going to die.

Judas might be in heaven.
Who are we to judge anybody??

God is a merciful God.
I leave it up to Him and trust Him.

Wrigley said:

It seems to me we are talking about 2 different things.

You say blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is to attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to demons and therefore unforgivable and I am saying the only unforgivable sin is to reject Jesus.

Maybe the two are the same.

Let's think about Paul. Persecuted Christian's and as a Pharisee is it possible he blasphemed the Holy Spirit? Rejected Jesus and sought to kill believers as result.

I can't answer your question with regards to time.
I can't judge a persons heart only Jesus can do that.

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Paul was doing what any man would do until Jesus revealed the truth of Himself to Paul, now Paul experienced, and to experience is to know. to reject and or deny the experience he came to know, would be the unforgiveable. as long as God hasn't reveal the Truth of God to someone, how can He say that is blasphemy?

Satan can not be redeemed. why, you say. because he has seen the revelation of the Most High and has denied Him. hence a blasphemy that is unforgiveable. you refuse to acknowledge the Most High in His Presence you've got a supper big problem. how did Jesus say it? that Satan fell out of heaven like a bolt of lightening.


mind you not knowing God by His revelation is no excuse for not fearing Him and respecting or honoring Him. flesh can do that, even a dog can do that with its owner.

Armadillo said:

Can you say with 100% certainty you are sealed?

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No. I don't believe anyone has the ability to know whether they are sealed or not. They can hope, pray and believe they are, but no one really knows.

Armadillo said:

I can.

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Would you mind sharing how you know that?

o

Job said:

No. I don't believe anyone has the ability to know whether they are sealed or not. They can hope, pray and believe they are, but no one really knows.





Would you mind sharing how you know that?

o

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Are we talking about the seal of God here?

Dcopymope said:

Are we talking about the seal of God here?

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I believe this is what he is referring to.

Ephesians 4
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

o

I really dont know what the issue is, according to teh majority of chritians, Jesus didnt do enough and so we are all going to hell. So hard to find those who believe God.

Job said:

I believe this is what he is referring to.

Ephesians 4
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

o

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If this is the same seal referred to in Revelation, then we all better hope we are sealed because I'm sure we all know what happens to those who don't have it.

(Revelation 9:3-6) "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. {4} And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. {5} And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. {6} And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

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I think this is a fate worthy of the following emoticon:

Job said:

No. I don't believe anyone has the ability to know whether they are sealed or not. They can hope, pray and believe they are, but no one really knows.

Would you mind sharing how you know that?

o

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Job said:

I believe this is what he is referring to.

Ephesians 4
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

o

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Dcopymope said:

If this is the same seal referred to in Revelation, then we all better hope we are sealed because I'm sure we all know what happens to those who don't have it.

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If someone takes the mark of the beast they are going to hell and that's a belief shared by many Christians, yes? So many give so much power to Satan believing he has the power to seal someone until their destruction, to hell they go, and so be it, no question. If someone has the seal of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, why is this not believed? It sounds to me as though more faith is given to the devil then the Holy Spirit. Is the devil more powerful than God? Hell no and all Christians will agree.

The devil likes to duplicate, to copy because he can't come up with anything original. When Cain killed Abel, the devil watched God mark Cain with a seal on his forehead. God didn't kill Abel, blood for blood, there was no "thou shalt not kill" at that time and where there is no law there is no transgression, Romans 4:14. Killing Abel was a sin, sin was in the world from Adam to Moses but sin was not imputed where there is no law, Romans 5:13. So what was God to do? Mark Cain with a seal. Ask yourself this, if you are a professing Christian, a believer, are you under the Law or Grace? Romans 6:13. As a child of God, no matter what you do, what "sin" you commit, you are sealed, you are His, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and the devil is hoping you don't know that and because he is such a skilled liar (give credit where's its due), John 8:44, and wants to attack you and make you doubt, the only weapon of destruction he has to use against you is the Law, Galatians 3:1.

This is where repentance and confession come in, which are different topics for discussion and mainstream Christianity has got this all wrong too. The devil has his finger in every pie, 2 Corinthians 2:11.

DPMartin said:

Satan can not be redeemed. why, you say. because he has seen the revelation of the Most High and has denied Him. hence a blasphemy that is unforgiveable. you refuse to acknowledge the Most High in His Presence you've got a supper big problem. how did Jesus say it? that Satan fell out of heaven like a bolt of lightening.

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I never said Satan could be redeemed.
When you say "you refuse to acknowledge " are you referring to me as an individual?

Armadillo said:

If someone takes the mark of the beast they are going to hell and that's a belief shared by many Christians, yes? So many give so much power to Satan believing he has the power to seal someone until their destruction, to hell they go, and so be it, no question. If someone has the seal of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, why is this not believed? It sounds to me as though more faith is given to the devil then the Holy Spirit. Is the devil more powerful than God? Hell no and all Christians will agree.

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Out of six or so billion people on earth, only 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are sealed with the one in revelation. Are you a Jew? Who cares if you are are really, only a handful of them get sealed. It would be foolish to put your trust in some seal of an elect few to protect you from the mark. The Devil can be as powerful as the power God gives him. That's why he is the restrainer. If God give gives him the power to get you thrown in the lake of fire threw a mark as scripture plainly states, so be it. Its about putting your faith to the test. It will be the time to put up or shut up. If you don't put up, then God won't be pleased with you, bottomline. If you want to test God when the time comes, then take the mark of the beast and worship his image and see what happens when the day of judgement comes.

Armadillo said:

The devil likes to duplicate, to copy because he can't come up with anything original. When Cain killed Abel, the devil watched God mark Cain with a seal on his forehead. God didn't kill Abel, blood for blood, there was no "thou shalt not kill" at that time and where there is no law there is no transgression, Romans 4:14. Killing Abel was a sin, sin was in the world from Adam to Moses but sin was not imputed where there is no law, Romans 5:13. So what was God to do? Mark Cain with a seal. Ask yourself this, if you are a professing Christian, a believer, are you under the Law or Grace? Romans 6:13. As a child of God, no matter what you do, what "sin" you commit, you are sealed, you are His, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and the devil is hoping you don't know that and because he is such a skilled liar (give credit where's its due), John 8:44, and wants to attack you and make you doubt, the only weapon of destruction he has to use against you is the Law, Galatians 3:1.

This is where repentance and confession come in, which are different topics for discussion and mainstream Christianity has got this all wrong too. The devil has his finger in every pie, 2 Corinthians 2:11.

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Actually, the principle of "thou shalt not kill" was established with Noah as soon as the waters receded. He required the blood of the man who killed another man, for it was an offense to God being man is his image bearer. This is well after Cain slew Abel, so your interpretation doesn't hold any credibility.

(Genesis 9:3-7) "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. {4} But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. {5} And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man. {6} Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. {7} And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein."

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Armadillo said:

Can you say with 100% certainty you are sealed? I can.

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How do you know you're sealed? Pointing to a verse that states you are sealed is not proof that you are sealed. You can believe you are sealed, but you can't really know for sure.

o

Wrigley said:

I never said Satan could be redeemed.
When you say "you refuse to acknowledge " are you referring to me as an individual?

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Wrigley,
I think he meant "you" in general.
We in the states do this...
It's not good, I do it too sometimes...
It's wrong, however: it should be: "If ONE refuses to ....."

Dcopymope said:

Out of six or so billion people on earth, only 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are sealed with the one in revelation. Are you a Jew? Who cares if you are are really, only a handful of them get sealed. It would be foolish to put your trust in some seal of an elect few to protect you from the mark. The Devil can be as powerful as the power God gives him. That's why he is the restrainer. If God give gives him the power to get you thrown in the lake of fire threw a mark as scripture plainly states, so be it. Its about putting your faith to the test. It will be the time to put up or shut up. If you don't put up, then God won't be pleased with you, bottomline. If you want to test God when the time comes, then take the mark of the beast and worship his image and see what happens when the day of judgement comes.

Actually, the principle of "thou shalt not kill" was established with Noah as soon as the waters receded. He required the blood of the man who killed another man, for it was an offense to God being man is his image bearer. This is well after Cain slew Abel, so your interpretation doesn't hold any credibility.

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Job said:

How do you know you're sealed? Pointing to a verse that states you are sealed is not proof that you are sealed. You can believe you are sealed, but you can't really know for sure.

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Isaiah 53 describes what Jesus went through on the Cross and what God's New Covenant will be about.

Isaiah 54:7

“For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back.

God is our redeemer, yes?

Isaiah 54:8

In a surge of anger
I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
I will have compassion on you,”
says the Lord your Redeemer.

Isn't God's anger against man over? When Noah landed the ark, wasn't there a promise made sealed with a rainbow? Don't you think God sees the Cross the same way, a promise being made and for all those who believe in His Son they are sealed and for those who reject the light, John 3:17,18 are not sealed? What are God's promises to you Dcopymope and Job?

Armadillo said:

If someone takes the mark of the beast they are going to hell and that's a belief shared by many Christians, yes? So many give so much power to Satan believing he has the power to seal someone until their destruction, to hell they go, and so be it, no question. If someone has the seal of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, why is this not believed? It sounds to me as though more faith is given to the devil then the Holy Spirit. Is the devil more powerful than God? Hell no and all Christians will agree.

The devil likes to duplicate, to copy because he can't come up with anything original. When Cain killed Abel, the devil watched God mark Cain with a seal on his forehead. God didn't kill Abel, blood for blood, there was no "thou shalt not kill" at that time and where there is no law there is no transgression, Romans 4:14. Killing Abel was a sin, sin was in the world from Adam to Moses but sin was not imputed where there is no law, Romans 5:13. So what was God to do? Mark Cain with a seal. Ask yourself this, if you are a professing Christian, a believer, are you under the Law or Grace? Romans 6:13. As a child of God, no matter what you do, what "sin" you commit, you are sealed, you are His, Ephesians 1:13, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and the devil is hoping you don't know that and because he is such a skilled liar (give credit where's its due), John 8:44, and wants to attack you and make you doubt, the only weapon of destruction he has to use against you is the Law, Galatians 3:1.

This is where repentance and confession come in, which are different topics for discussion and mainstream Christianity has got this all wrong too. The devil has his finger in every pie, 2 Corinthians 2:11.

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Please tell me you didn't just say that.
Or if you did, maybe you'd care to explain it?

Armadillo said:

Don't you think God sees the Cross the same way, a promise being made and for all those who believe in His Son they are sealed

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You're ignoring the obvious.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.


Do you not understand what Jesus is saying here? Not all believers go to heaven. Not all those who believe are sealed.

You need to stop being offended and listen to what the Word is saying.

o

Wrigley said:

I never said Satan could be redeemed.
When you say "you refuse to acknowledge " are you referring to me as an individual?

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I didn't know you thought you were so important. just what is your record for how fast you can take offence? no not you in particular, and in the case of "if you" then why not you if the shoe fits, so then wear it, otherwise why would you take offence unless you seek reason to exercise some argumentative horse dump.