Freewill

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bbyrd009

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we move and live and have our being - what they both taught us but not many have realised or will willingly accept is that we must not impute to ourselves and claim the glory that really belongs to God alone for we do not even breathe but only think we do and do not also realise that we do not even think but only think we think
in this case "change your mind" and "seek salvation" and "pick up your cross and follow" have no meaning, twinc, at least not that i can see
 

Helen

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Freewill.
So that at the end of all this...Jesus Christ receives His Bride 'who hath made herself ready' ....and is a willing, free, Bride , and not one who has been robotically had her will bound to serve by:- "obedience or punishment".
God from the beginning has made us for Love. Love is His nature, and love is the response He is looking for.
Love can only come via freewill.
 

Wrigley

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actually imo A&E could not have had free will prior to eating the fruit--how could they? But they could have had a natural resistance or even aversion to mating with another species. just sayin here. "Free will" implies knowledge of good and evil, after all right
Wow you raise a very interesting point here.

Genesis 2:15-17

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Then we find

Genesis 3:22-24

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

So given the opening sentence of this post

Freewill usually refers to the human capacity to choose between good and evil. The idea of freewill has problems on several levels

It seems apparent that A&E before they ate off that tree had no idea of what was good and what was evil.

Genesis 3:22

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Does verse 17 above relate to v22 above?
Because they did die spiritually and physically.

So now I am confused.

Why did they disobey?

I thought it was because they had free will, to choose between good and evil.

You have stretched my mind.

Thanks
 
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bbyrd009

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Why did they disobey?
well, we can only extrapolate from a story acknowledged to be mythology, very ancient wisdom iow, but imo examining what "fruit" of a "tree of knowledge" could mean--in relation to the Biblical definition of "knowing" for humans--it might have easily been lust, the most basic thing it seems to me.

now this does render
“Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
as more like a species' natural directive to reproduce with its own kind that might be violated...but everyone knows monkeys are freaky anyway lol
 

bbyrd009

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Why did they disobey?
when they saw that the "tree"--which is purely representative here, defined in Scripture elsewhere--was good for "food," iow maybe satisfied an itch even, since it was obviously "forbidden fruit." ha, the truth is even embedded in our lexicon lol
 

bbyrd009

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22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”
an obvious dichotomy is introduced here, that bears a lot of reflection. It's almost like a sentence or two has been omitted. These two sentences do not go together, and yet here they are together

how does becoming like God = Falling
 

Wrigley

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well, we can only extrapolate from a story acknowledged to be mythology, very ancient wisdom iow, but imo examining what "fruit" of a "tree of knowledge" could mean--in relation to the Biblical definition of "knowing" for humans--it might have easily been lust, the most basic thing it seems to me.

now this does render

as more like a species' natural directive to reproduce with its own kind that might be violated...but everyone knows monkeys are freaky anyway lol
Are you saying that the story of A&E is a myth?
 

Helen

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@Wrigley It says Eve was deceived .
There she was trotting along enjoying her day, believing that all things were good.
The Serpent interrupts her lovely day...to temp her to doubt God. So that she would believe that God was holding out on them, with something she needed to know.
She did not go with this to the Lord, and asked Him if she lacked something.
She just took the bait , was seduced and because of her freewill she CHOSE to take into herself what was being offered.
My own personal belief is that Adam chose HER...over choosing to follow God...she had already eaten...he chose to eat...therefor Adam was not deceived , he willfully sinned. He chose the woman.

They weren't choosing between good and evil...they were choosing to believe that God was holding out on them in not giving them everything that they thought they needed.

That's my two cents :)
 
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FHII

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Ugh! The freewill debate again!

This was interesting though:

Also, before the Fall, humans could only choose between good things (they did not think selfishly);

How many humans were there before the fall? If they could only choose good before the fall, how did the fall happen? I mean, didn't the fall happen because they chose something bad? How could they choose something bad if they hadn't fallen yet?

Aspen, when I think of this debate I tend to think of who chose who? Do we choose to follow God or does God choose us to follow him? I believe God called us. He wrote it in the nature of some to respond to his calling. We don't choose God. He chose us.

But you have brought a different angle into the debate. Can we choose good instead of evil? I don't have a solid answer. I can say yes because he gave us the rulebook which is the Law. I can say no because there hasn't been anyone who has succeeded in keeping it aside from Jesus. And even he bent the rules a few times by the legalistic viewpoint.

Yes. We have freewill to choose good vs. Evil. But because we are in the flesh we will ultimately fail. We can do our best and encourage everyone to do so. But ultimately we will have NO CHOICE but to rely on Jesus and his sacrifice.
 
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Wrigley

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Yes. We have freewill to choose good vs. Evil. But because we are in the flesh we will ultimately fail. We can do our best and encourage everyone to do so. But ultimately we will have NO CHOICE but to rely on Jesus and his sacrifice.

And that's the truth and that should be our focus.
Rely and focus on Jesus and what he has done.
 
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aspen

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Ugh! The freewill debate again!

This was interesting though:

How many humans were there before the fall? If they could only choose good before the fall, how did the fall happen? I mean, didn't the fall happen because they chose something bad? How could they choose something bad if they hadn't fallen yet?

1. According to Creation story, there were 2 people

2. God was not the only 'good' thing - His Will was also good, which included his creation.

3. I think the Fall happened because they chose something good and used it badly.

4. They chose to follow their own will - this is how they became like God, but because they were not God and therefore, woefully ill equipped to be their own god; it was bad and led to death, not life. It would be similar to a child deciding to become President, but infinitely more tragic.

Aspen, when I think of this debate I tend to think of who chose who? Do we choose to follow God or does God choose us to follow him? I believe God called us. He wrote it in the nature of some to respond to his calling. We don't choose God. He chose us.

1. I believe that God chooses us.

2. We have a tendency to continue to use Gods good creation, which he willed into existence, for our own ends. We make idols out of false self/ego and follow it right into the grave, apart from Christ.

3. Thankfully, Christ intervened and provided us a saving relationship with Him, freeing us from the slavery of the false self. We don't have to be addicted to our opinions and desires any longer. We will wander off at times, but we can follow Christ's voice and turn back towards him and away from self.

But you have brought a different angle into the debate. Can we choose good instead of evil? I don't have a solid answer. I can say yes because he gave us the rulebook which is the Law. I can say no because there hasn't been anyone who has succeeded in keeping it aside from Jesus. And even he bent the rules a few times by the legalistic viewpoint.

1. It is not easy to understand! I am right there, with you! I just like to think about it.

2. I see it as a choice between acting selfishly or loving outwardly. If we understand that the law was made for us, not as our slavemaster, I think we can see how it can be fulfilled in Christ through living it out by loving outwardly. Where we went wrong with the law before Christ is that we made it an idol - and the craziest part of it for me is that we made it an idol for everyone else! In fact, we were still secretly following the Old Man, yet demanding fealty to the law from everyone else. Jesus was pure application of the law - and it must have been torturous to watch for people demanding external fealty to the law; especially because not one of them was able to follow it themselves.

Yes. We have freewill to choose good vs. Evil. But because we are in the flesh we will ultimately fail. We can do our best and encourage everyone to do so. But ultimately we will have NO CHOICE but to rely on Jesus and his sacrifice.

Agreed.
 
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aspen

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This just occurred to me; the mark of the beast is the number of man, which is the number of humans enslaved to their false self - walking pillars of salt
 

amadeus

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Really always for man there have been only two choices. That is his "freewill". The two choices are "my way" or "God's Way". They are repeated and expressed many times in scripture in various ways in both the OT and the NT, but the result is the same. My way equals death. God's Way equals Life. Most people like the majority of the children in the wilderness after seeing the power of God and the mercy of God choose their own way and death.
 

ScottA

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Freewill usually refers to the human capacity to choose between good and evil. The idea of freewill has problems on several levels.

It is a poor description - a better way to describe our choice is between being selfish or community-minded. Do we focus on meeting our own needs before our neighbor or are we altruistic?

Also, before the Fall, humans could only choose between good things (they did not think selfishly); afterwards, we put self first, which indicates that we could no longer choose between good things because every choice we made from that point was selfish.

Christ died for the community - everything he did was community-minded. He instructed us to be community-minded and gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us, which is great, but we are still not able to be native speakers......we still have to purposefully translate everything from selfish to community. We have to actively give up our will to hoard and act hedonistically, in order to give.

What do you all think?
History (His story) is a story written before the foundation of the world. As such, our freewill occurred then...and this is the story of how it plays out in time. On such a timeline, our freewill is completed by us before we ever experience it...which makes us last to know.

When Jesus stated, "For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says", it was a demonstration of what it means to be connected with what is true. In other words, if we "believe" what is true...it shall be. Because that is the story as it is written. But if we do not believe or are not connected [spiritually] with the "I am" reality of God - that which simply is...then we simply have to wait and see how things play out.
 
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bbyrd009

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Are you saying that the story of A&E is a myth?
not like we define myth today, no. Mythology was how most truth was carried to the next generation for all but the last few thousand years, and Genesis is acknowledged to largely be derived from "mythology," i'm sure the story was faithfully repeated.

Moses did not originate the first five of the decalogue, either. Doesn't mean they don't still come from God. At least imo.
 

bbyrd009

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But because we are in the flesh we will ultimately fail.
failing is part of trying; recognizing that and being remorseful for mistakes, and willing to make them right on the spot, without your ego getting in the way, makes you acceptable, manifests Christ, does it not?
 

bbyrd009

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But ultimately we will have NO CHOICE but to rely on Jesus and his sacrifice.
so, amen! But you will then either follow Christ--the hardest one, admitting you made a mistake and fixing it--or you will seek a scapegoat, or you will rely on Nehushtan, if he is not broken up.