Freewill

bbyrd009 · Sep 5, 2017

ScottA said:
In other words, if we "believe" what is true...it shall be.

"what you fear will come upon you" suggests that whatever you believe is what will come to pass; or at least it sure does to me. God has no problem with you eating your children, if you are living in fear, iow if that is what you "believe."

ScottA · Sep 5, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
"what you fear will come upon you" suggests that whatever you believe is what will come to pass; or at least it sure does to me. God has no problem with you eating your children, if you are living in fear, iow if that is what you "believe."

I think I get you bb, but that is kind of backwards.

It is possible that what we believe is accurately aligned with the truth of what will be, but just as likely that it is not and our beliefs are simply wrong. It is more a matter of what "is" true being manifest into the telling of that moment of freewill that occurred in the twinkling of an eye before the foundation of the world. So, then, if who and what we are is "wrong" in what we believe, that is what will be manifest. And if we are evil and our freewill runs deep enough to eat our children, then that is what will be manifest. But what "is" and what is true, is true regardless.

All this is justice. It is God's judgement that what we deserve by our own choice of freewill is manifest as a testimony for or against us. It is the story of our life that is true, whether good or evil. But we show and testify against ourselves. God is just.

amadeus · Sep 5, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
"what you fear will come upon you" suggests that whatever you believe is what will come to pass; or at least it sure does to me. God has no problem with you eating your children, if you are living in fear, iow if that is what you "believe."

We are what we eat as an old saying of men goes.

Jesus told us that if we did not eat his flesh and drink his blood we had no Life in us. Eating anything else, spiritually speaking, will get us to the wrong place, to death that is.

"Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still." Isaiah 9:19-21

Our own flesh is our own ways. When we speak of eating our own children, we are doing what? We are eating that which comes forth from our own flesh instead of eating that which comes forth from God, which is Jesus, is it not?

So then we need to read John chapter 6 carefully so we understand what it is that Jesus is saying for as Isaiah wrote in the above verse and a few other places "his hand is stretched out still" is to offer us a better meal than we can obtain from man's world or from his carnal family or from himself.

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." John 6:53-56

VictoryinJesus · Sep 5, 2017

amadeus said:
We are what we eat as an old saying of men goes.

Jesus told us that if we did not eat his flesh and drink his blood we had no Life in us. Eating anything else, spiritually speaking, will get us to the wrong place, to death that is.

"Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.
And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:
Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still." Isaiah 9:19-21

Our own flesh is our own ways. When we speak of eating our own children, we are doing what? We are eating that which comes forth from our own flesh instead of eating that which comes forth from God, which is Jesus, is it not?

So then we need to read John chapter 6 carefully so we understand what it is that Jesus is saying for as Isaiah wrote in the above verse and a few other places "his hand is stretched out still" is to offer us a better meal than we can obtain from man's world or from his carnal family or from himself.

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him." John 6:53-56

Another odd passage that is still unclear:

2 Kings 6:26-29 KJV
[26] And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king. [27] And he said, If the Lord do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress? [28] And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. [29] So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

I am sorry, I thought I would throw that out there while the direction of the post is on eating of ones child. I am not sure what it has to do with freewill. Maybe only in: the right to choose. The passage is weird and seems out of place...

DPMartin · Sep 5, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
actually imo A&E could not have had free will prior to eating the fruit--h, as well as goodow could they? But they could have had a natural resistance or even aversion to mating with another species. just sayin here. "Free will" implies knowledge of good and evil, after all right

but what is knowledge? isn't it revelation? to know is to experience hence A&E experienced evil as well as good. therefore they knew. thing is they went by there own judgment of what is good and experienced evil. what is evil to a life? death. freewill is it context is delusional on the part of those who believe its validity.

the commandment that God gave Adam was a covenant in the case of the garden and the Life God gave Adam. the commandment told Adam how to not die, hence God's Judgement that results in Life. but they went by their own judgment and died of the Life that was given them by God, and God left them to remain in the life of the flesh. dust to dust ashes to ashes, just like any of the flesh that existed before them.

and that Life Adam had before he ate:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

the delusion of freewill in the application to biblical scenarios is like a prisoner on death row has the freewill to remain a prisoner on death row. oh he can have bacon and eggs for breakfast or what ever else the prison has for food, and what ever satisfactions that may be within his reach, that's about it.

the paint doesn't chose the artist, the artist choses the paint. it was God's choice to make Adam and Eve, it was God's choice to place Adam in the garden it was God's choice to give a commandment, (make agreement with man for coexistence purposes) it was God's choice to let man exist after they ate. Noah was God's choice, Abraham was God's choice, David was God's choice and needless to say Jesus is the Father's choice for all.

the delusion is simple that you would believe that you can trust your own judgement of what is good and evil. that is what happened in the garden, and God's Judgement remains the same, the result is Life, and man's judgement still results in death.

in the context of believers in Christ, God's Judgement is good for His creation, no exceptions. any other judgement is death. believers are to have discernment of what is for or against God's Judgement.

amadeus · Sep 5, 2017

VictoryinJesus said:
Another odd passage that is still unclear:

2 Kings 6:26-29 KJV
[26] And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king. [27] And he said, If the Lord do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress? [28] And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. [29] So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.

I am sorry, I thought I would throw that out there while the direction of the post is on eating of ones child. I am not sure what it has to do with freewill. Maybe only in: the right to choose. The passage is weird and seems out of place...

Those verses remind me of what we too often witness on this and other Christian forums.

The chapter involved in no place mentions the name of the king, but he was a king of the northern 10 tribes and not one of their kings was a faithful servant of God. It was like the "pot calling the kettle black". The king was disgusted by what the mothers were doing, but he did nothing to change the underlying cause. As king, he could have improved the whole situation by taking a stand for God, which he never did.

The northern 10 tribes like the southern 2 [called Judah] were also the children of Israel [Jacob], but while they had [as we have here] time to point fingers at one another to expose faults, where do we see the Love of God? It makes the whole thing meaningless because God is not doing any of it. He is not telling the mother to eat their own children and He is not moving the king to fix the problem in the kingdom.

Catholics and Protestants will attack each other using scriptures, but where is God in it? Where is Love? Where is mercy?
What too often is heard is nothing more than "I am right and you are wrong".

What your verses have to do with freewill is neither the king nor the mothers chose God's Way. They did not choose God's perfect will, but their own.

VictoryinJesus · Sep 5, 2017

amadeus said:
Those verses remind me of what we too often witness on this and other Christian forums.

The chapter involved in no place mentions the name of the king, but he was a king of the northern 10 tribes and not one of their kings was a faithful servant of God. It was like the "pot calling the kettle black". The king was disgusted by what the mothers were doing, but he did nothing to change the underlying cause. As king, he could have improved the whole situation by taking a stand for God, which he never did.

The northern 10 tribes like the southern 2 [called Judah] were also the children of Israel [Jacob], but while they had [as we have here] time to point fingers at one another to expose faults, where do we see the Love of God? It makes the whole thing meaningless because God is not doing any of it. He is not telling the mother to eat their own children and He is not moving the king to fix the problem in the kingdom.

Catholics and Protestants will attack each other using scriptures, but where is God in it? Where is Love? Where is mercy?
What too often is heard is nothing more than "I am right and you are wrong".

What your verses have to do with freewill is neither the king nor the mothers chose God's Way. They did not choose God's perfect will, but their own.

Thank you. Now I feel too quick in starting a thread about the passage since it has nothing to do with what I read or added into it. How did you learn all the history behind passages to keep from quick misinterpretation? A lot of study?

And I agree: where is mercy? Where is love?

bbyrd009 · Sep 5, 2017

DPMartin said:
believers are to have discernment of what is for or against God's Judgement.

for themselves, sure

amadeus · Sep 5, 2017

VictoryinJesus said:
Thank you. Now I feel too quick in starting a thread about the passage since it has nothing to do with what I read or added into it. How did you learn all the history behind passages to keep from quick misinterpretation? A lot of study?

And I agree: where is mercy? Where is love?

A lot of study? Yes, I studied a lot for years and then I backslid and forgot much of what I had learned. When God drew me back to Him, then He began to teach me some things. I know now that I don't really know much at all, but God does, and when I am yielded to Him and He wants to use me then He does use me. Sometimes, I open my mouth on my own and my own big foot moves right inside.

In other words, when I am right in speaking and in what I am speaking, it is of God. When I am not, it is the old man of flesh sticking up his ugly head one more time.

twinc · Sep 5, 2017

let us try and make some sense out of all that has so far been said but firstly and always remembering we are dealing with God who does not just mess about nor is easily understood or grasped - this God understood and tries to impart this understanding to us but fails to do so it seems - we are told "in Him we move and live and have our being" but this is unacceptable to our ego which claims it moves under its own powers and freewill etc - we were told and shown right at the beginning in Adam and Eve that if humans were given freewill as Adam and Eve were they would make a right codswallop of things - so God to save us from ourselves and hell ensured after the Fall that we could not and would not be held responsible for our faults and failings - so He did not even allolw us to breathe for ourselves whivh in itself would have led to certain death and extinction nor does He allow us to think for ourselves because in fact thoughts occur outside our control - just try and stop thinking and see for yourself - Paul realised that he did not have freewill - Jesus realised He had freewill but realised that what it was about was to do the will of His father - not my will but thine be done - who is responsible they said this man or his father - the answer was ? - imho - twinc

bbyrd009 · Sep 5, 2017

amadeus said:
and then I backslid

a necessary component imo, as one's first love has been lost, right

then you seek your own salvation

amadeus · Sep 5, 2017

bbyrd009 said:
a necessary component imo, as one's first love has been lost, right

then you seek your own salvation

Unlearning things is often very necessary before one can be correctly taught. I remember when God first drew me in to Him in 1976. I had to have layers of my college education stripped back to expose the bare bones that lay beneath. Then with the help of sometimes well-intentioned men I began to build up a lot a new layers of man's ways defined as God's ways. It was those extraneous layers that God began to remove when I returned from a backslidden condition in about 2002. He has brought me along ways, but the end is not yet.

bbyrd009 · Sep 5, 2017

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