How the religious make a mockery of God

mjrhealth said:

Jesus is not a private religion, If you want Him He is there for you, if you want religion, you can have that, if you prefer the bible to the Living word you can have that, Jesus will not force Himself upon any one, it is your choosing. Walking in the spirit is what Penetcost was all about, even something the apostles struggled with since they where teh first. But men are carnal and whats its say,

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

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So well put !

@mjrhealth ...Yes indeed....EXCELLENT!!

mjrhealth said:

I guess you missed this bit,
Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

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Notice the "written" that you referenced

mjrhealth said:

Every word that He speaks and you hear, gives you life, just as watering a seed gives it life, REading a book no matter what, cannot bring you life even teh "bible" testifes of that,
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

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The above verses were not written for gentiles. The reference in these verses was to the Jews who had the old testament testimony that spoke of the coming savior and they were failing to recognize him. here is the rest of the verses that put those two in context;
John 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Indeed how might one believe Christ's words if one does not believe in Moses written words?

mjrhealth said:

As even He said'
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
or teh disciples
Joh_6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
you wil not find "life" anywhere else. It is men whom have made the written word such a big deal, everything after pentecost is by the spirit.
Joh_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
but He finds so few that are willing.

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If only his direct words to people were pertinent and valid then there would have been no reason to send the apostles to take his words to the ends of the earth;

acts 1:8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

If your words were truth then the apostles who did hear his words directly would not have made any writings such as Mathew, Mark, Luke or John nor would John have made the book of revelation. The written word is the message from God and Christ to those who they cannot yet speak to directly with the Holy spirit because they are as yet unrepentant and unbaptized and have need to learn. To this day the apostles testimony is had because of the command by Christ to take it to the ends of the earth.
So, when a person is able to move on from the written word to a direct connection via the Holy spirit then that person will have no need for the written word because the Comforter / helper / advocate / Holy spirit will;
John 14:26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So in Christ's own words the Father will give us a teacher to give understanding and that can bring all the words that Christ has already spoken to our remembrance but until the time that people receive the Holy spirit they have only his writings to draw them closer to God.

Truth said:

I don't have Religion, I Believe like Abraham, after my first encounter, because I believe I Have Faith, In what I have not seen, yet I also Have Hope in the Promises that are outlined in the Scriptures. there are many religions, some worship the SUN, some worship the MOON, many worship the Hosts of Heaven, which God Gave to the Nations to worship, and Israel was to teach the world about God, but they didn't do a very good Job, The God Of Israel is not a Religion, for there is non like HIM, He is OUR CREATOR. He is or He is not!!

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You think Abraham wasn't religious? How did he know about sacrificing animals and his son? He followed the religious practices of his people in Sumeria.

mjrhealth said:

See this is belittling God, as if God needs the bible, there are many who have come to God without reading a bible...

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How is it possible that I can belittle God by stating the absolute fact that it was through the written word that they convey understanding to those who don't know them? Here is another fact about the written word of God that many do not realize; The first written words of God were directly written by God;
Exodus 31:18And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Jeremiah 30:2 "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book.

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So did God belittle himself by using the written word? since as you state "simply because He knew they would believe, yet so many read the bible and still dont believe"

Does the Holy spirit belittle God because it was by the spirits inspiration that men were moved to create scripture;
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

There is no doubt that satan has done his best to corrupt the written word but the fact remains that it was by God's direction that the written word was instituted through his chosen people Israel in the old testament and continued by the Holy spirit through the chosen of Christ in the new testament.

Who are we to question or deny God's choice of using the written word. We are all dogs who should welcome any crumbs that fall from the Masters table.

KBCid said:

The first written words of God were directly written by God;

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i agree, yet the first 5 of the decalogue predate Moses by centuries. They likely precede Hammurabi too

mjrhealth said:

Lets make it plain for you.

Mat_21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

the very same you have rejected because
Mar_10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
for as written in the OT
1Sa_8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
There is but one head over us, His name is Jesus, if you are afraid of Him than you have no faith.

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Hi mrhealth,

You didn't answer my question AND I know you never will so we will move on.

Jesus gave the Apostles the power to bind and loose; whatever they loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.... If you knew scripture you would know that Jesus left us with bishops, elders etc with authority to bind and loose.

What is your theory on the passage from scripture that talks about binding and loosening?

Curious Mary

bbyrd009 said:

i agree, yet the first 5 of the decalogue predate Moses by centuries. They likely precede Hammurabi too

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Based on?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Is it Truth or Tradition?

In the gospel of John, Jesus taught about binding and loosing in the context of forgiveness, but did not specifically mention the words “binding” and “loosing.” Jesus said, “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven (John 20:23). It is impossible for a leader to run a congregation without making decisions about “binding” and “loosing.”

Now that we know that the word “bind” means “forbid,” and “loose” means “permit,” we need to properly translate the verses that contain them. Almost every English version translates Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 in a way similar to the NIV: “I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). According to this translation, we, as disciples, make a decision to bind or loose, and God then follows our lead. This translation has produced wrong doctrine in the Church. For example, the commentator Albert Barnes, author of the well known commentary set, Barnes’ Notes, writes: “The meaning of this verse is, whatever you shall do in the discipline of the church shall be approved by God….” [6] That is not a correct interpretation of the verse, and not the way ministry works.

God’s ministers do not make commands that God must approve and follow. Rather, God’s ministers must become aware of what God wants done, and then follow His lead. Jesus himself worked that way, as Scripture makes clear.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

John 8:28
…I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

Jesus’ disciples, like Jesus himself, are to follow God’s leading, as the correct translation of Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 makes clear. The 1995 revision of the New American Standard Bible does a good job translating Matthew 16:19 and 18:18.

Matthew 18:18 (1995 NASB) [7]
“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

The Greek text in the phrase that most versions translate as, “will be bound in heaven” does not have a simple future tense, as “will be” implies, and the verb “bind” is passive in the Greek text, so “shall have been bound” or “must have been bound” are good translations of the Greek. [8] An excellent translation of Matthew 18:18 was done by Charles Williams.

Matthew 18:18 (Williams’ Translation) [9]
I solemnly say to you, whatever you forbid on earth must be already forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth must be already permitted in heaven.”

Julius R. Mantey, the Greek grammarian and scholar who co-authored A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, wrote that Williams’ translation did a better job of translating the Greek verb into English than any other New Testament he had studied, and he gave Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 as examples of verses that Williams translated very well. [10]

Once Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 are properly translated, we have clear teaching on how to act before God. It is not that we bind or loose and then God backs up what we do. It is God who first binds or looses, and then we follow His leading and do the same on earth. As we have seen, even Jesus did not bind and loose on his own without knowing the Father’s will.

One of the most important lessons we can learn is that God may lead us in a decision that we make. If we pray and look for His guidance, it is usually there. James says, “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him” (James 1:5).

We now have enough information to clearly understand what Jesus was teaching to his disciples. Jesus looked to God to know what to do in situations not covered in the Torah. In contrast, Jesus’ disciples had looked to him for direction, but what would they do when he was gone? He knew his disciples needed instruction in how to run the fellowships that would spring up all over the globe, so he taught them to be sure to follow God’s lead in what they forbade or permitted. Jesus’ instruction to his disciples made perfect sense in the culture of his day, and still makes perfect sense today. We are always to look for God’s guidance before we make rules that forbid or permit people’s actions.
Binding and Loosing | Truth Or Tradition?

It is written;
Matt 6:10........Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

not
Thy will be done in heaven, as it is in earth.

KBCid said:

Based on?

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well, history, i guess? Not sure how to answer this. Reputable sources, or at least multiple sources.
So, i just googled the phrase, you can see for yourself
the first 5 of the decalogue predate Moses by centuries. They likely precede Hammurabi - Google Search

bbyrd009 said:

well, history, i guess? Not sure how to answer this. Reputable sources, or at least multiple sources. So, i just googled the phrase, you can see for yourself
the first 5 of the decalogue predate Moses by centuries. They likely precede Hammurabi - Google Search

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no one doubts that in all forms of society there were laws and because they were laws for intelligent beings we as later intelligent beings should expect them all to have some basic commonalities;

Similarity in penal codes should be expected in civil societies. Both Babylon and Israel had laws against murder, but it doesn’t follow that one stole the idea from the other. Should one country not prosecute a crime simply because another country has a similar law?
The differences between Mosaic Law and the Hammurabian Code are equally significant. For example, the Law of Moses went far beyond the Code of Hammurabi in that it was rooted in the worship of one God, supreme over all (Deuteronomy 6:4-5). The moral principles of the Old Testament are based on a righteous God who demanded that mankind, created in His image, live righteously. The Law of Moses is more than a legal code; it speaks of sin and responsibility to God. The Hammurabian Code and other ancient laws do not do this.
Did Moses copy the Law from the Code of Hammurabi?

Would you expect laws of different societies to be highly diverse?

KBCid said:

The Hammurabian Code and other ancient laws do not do this.

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ah, guess it's the 2nd 5 of the decalogue that are the pre-Mosaic ones, my mistake. As to your questions, i am not really qualified to answer those i guess sorry

"the passage from scripture that talks about binding and loosening?"

fwiw i read a reflection that made some sense, it centered on the "you" part of those passages, and whether that "you" was meant as plural or singular, which would change the meaning quite a bit. Iow "...whatever you all bind on earth..." might be a better way to understand that.

Not sure how one would determine whether a singular or plural "you" is meant there though, i've forgotten the argument there, and i can't do it myself

mjrhealth said:

no He didnt see,

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

That is all He sent us teh Holy Spirit to teach "all" men teh truth He is not for the religious men only.

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Hi mrhealth,

Yes, He did...SEE Matthew 18:18

If the Holy Spirit is teaching all men THE TRUTH why are there 100's of different truths regarding one subject? Is the Holy Spirit confused? Or are you? (hint, it's not the Holy Spirit who is confused).

Glad I was able to reveal a new line in scripture to you.

Mary