Satan - a bitter, jealous adversary of Job

breathofdesire · Sep 16, 2017

face2face said:
When trouble comes into our lives how many of us discern this as possibly coming from God? They may not be in the same severity as Job...but I know many have suffered many things and lived to tell their experience.

What we know about God and His relationship with Job is that God taught Job though these trials and Job was intended to discern God’s hand in all of them:

1. The Sabeans attack [Man] 3. The Chaldeans attack [Man]
2. The lighting strikes [God] 4. The tornado strikes [God]

Four time "I alone have escaped to tell you.” God was doing it—the signs were there, as they often are for us in our distress and affliction. We can conclude that—

1. We are being disciplined harshly and unfairly, which we don’t deserve and God has turned against us; or
2. An all-wise and loving Father is chastening us for our essential good and for the benefit of others, and we need to patiently endure and learn to cooperate with Him.

In our darkest moments God can become our anchor. Hebrews 6:19

You're right, it's a bit redundant to have a evil being torment us, when with have the pains of sin and Gods swift left boot.

breathofdesire · Sep 16, 2017

tabletalk said:
In Job 1:22. "In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong."
So far, every translation I've checked uses the word *sin*. What am I missing here? Seems like Job was sinless for a period of time.

Well if Job was sacrificing to God, it could be counted as he was sinless.

Unless Job is Jesus.

101G · Sep 16, 2017

breathofdesire said:
The plot thickens when you read that satan presents himself before the Lord

In heaven?

GINOLJC, to all. Yes it dose, but satan didn't presents himself before the Lord... In heaven? NO, I must disagree with that assessment. the presenting of oneself was here on earth. it was only that the devil had to answer to God, or give a report to God, and this took place here on earth not in heaven. I know why you say this, because of this verse. Job, 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them". the word sons of God here is referring to human and not angels. there are many examples of men presenting themselves before God here on earth. 1 Samuel 10:19 "And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands". and there are many more examples. but what got you was that satan came also among them. #1. satan was not in heaven nor the sons of God. #2. Job and his friends was sons of God, angels are never called sons of God. #3. Job and his friends was keeping God's feast days before the nation of Israel was even born. yes the book of Job have many things to tell us.

be blessed.

breathofdesire · Sep 16, 2017

101G said:
GINOLJC, to all. Yes it dose, but satan didn't presents himself before the Lord... In heaven? NO, I must disagree with that assessment. the presenting of oneself was here on earth. it was only that the devil had to answer to God, or give a report to God, and this took place here on earth not in heaven. I know why you say this, because of this verse. Job, 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them". the word sons of God here is referring to human and not angels. there are many examples of men presenting themselves before God here on earth. 1 Samuel 10:19 "And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands". and there are many more examples. but what got you was that satan came also among them. #1. satan was not in heaven nor the sons of God. #2. Job and his friends was sons of God, angels are never called sons of God. #3. Job and his friends was keeping God's feast days before the nation of Israel was even born. yes the book of Job have many things to tell us.

be blessed.

Well that's a better explanation than mine. I wasn't sure if satan went to heaven or it was on earth, when he presented himself. It may be that satan was in fact fallen at this time.

101G · Sep 16, 2017

breathofdesire said:
You're right, it's a bit redundant to have a evil being torment us, when with have the pains of sin and Gods swift left boot.

1 Samuel 16:14-19 "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well. And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him. Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep".

Now let's see the Lord himself deal with stiff necked and hard heart people in the NT. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness".

101G · Sep 16, 2017

breathofdesire said:
Well that's a better explanation than mine. I wasn't sure if satan went to heaven or it was on earth, when he presented himself. It may be that satan was in fact fallen at this time.

first thanks for the response, but one can fall right here on earth, Just ask Adam the first man about falling... (smile).

be blessed.

breathofdesire · Sep 16, 2017

101G said:
1 Samuel 16:14-19 "But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well. And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him. Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep".

Now let's see the Lord himself deal with stiff necked and hard heart people in the NT. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness".

So God does use evil against us, is that evil that is from ourselves or does God cause evil itself independent of us?

101G · Sep 16, 2017

breathofdesire said:
So God does use evil against us, is that evil that is from ourselves or does God cause evil itself independent of us?

Evil have it place and it have a purpose. God created evil for a purpose, it's how one use evil. question can you control evil, or do evil control you. as Shakespeare to be or not to be that is the question. Evil can be for destruction , but it can be used for correction. let me give some natural example. Our father's in the flesh. we Loved them but at the same time feared them. because if we didn't obey we knew what would happen, spanking. so was the spanking GOOD, NO... (smile). but notice the same man that spanked us is is the same man that we crawled into his arms and he loved us. same man, now how much more our heavenly Father loves. the apostle Paul made it clear, Hebrews 12:7-9 "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" see breathofdesire, putting it in morden language, God don't have a bunch of bay bay kids running around here on earth. training began at home.

hope this helps.

breathofdesire · Sep 16, 2017

101G said:
Evil have it place and it have a purpose. God created evil for a purpose, it's how one use evil. question can you control evil, or do evil control you. as Shakespeare to be or not to be that is the question. Evil can be for destruction , but it can be used for correction. let me give some natural example. Our father's in the flesh. we Loved them but at the same time feared them. because if we didn't obey we knew what would happen, spanking. so was the spanking GOOD, NO... (smile). but notice the same man that spanked us is is the same man that we crawled into his arms and he loved us. same man, now how much more our heavenly Father loves. the apostle Paul made it clear, Hebrews 12:7-9 "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" see breathofdesire, putting it in morden language, God don't have a bunch of bay bay kids running around here on earth. training began at home.

hope this helps.

Oh it does, so much I'm jumping up and down in my head mentally excited.

Helen · Sep 16, 2017

mjrhealth said:
So God and the devil are one and the same, the one who loves mankind also hates him, the one who came to give us life is also set to destroy us. is that what we really think of God??? God brought no evil upon Job, that was all by the enemy.

Agree. Making God a schizophrenic!!!!
As I see it Satan is a tool God made..he fell = Choice, God is using him to perfect His people.
Do I understand it all...NO!!
Everything that any of us say is our "best guess".

Helen · Sep 16, 2017

In fairness to @face2face I have to say that I have heard some doctrines that Satan is the Left hand of God.
I struggle with the whole thing...I can swing both ways.
But my problem always comes when I think that God made him, and God uses him as a tool to perfect and mature us...and at The End, after a job 'well done' by him...his reward is to get chucked into fire to burn for ever and ever!!

So I can't go there at all...it all sounds like craziness.
I have heard the both sides issue....but nothing I have heard in my 50+ years of being a Christian has witnessed to my heart where I can say...YES, I "see it" I can take that, understand that, and make it mine. I still do not get it.
God is not a schizophrenic.
Nothing yet satisfies me.

bbyrd009 · Sep 16, 2017

face2face said:
it was God alone who brought evil upon Job

ya, this is the standard Christian belief now, i guess. But you might go find where Job confessed to his sin, twice.
God brought no undeserved evil upon Job. Job reaped what he sowed.
God is not some Capricious Being who wipes out families on a whim

bbyrd009 · Sep 16, 2017

breathofdesire said:
Unless Job is Jesus.

Job confessed to sin, and Jesus of course did not have to, so not sure how you could make this fit.

i understand that Job is described as a "righteous man" in the beginning of the Book--in a way subtly different from the description of Noah, one might note--and this description is i think as far as most Christians get in building an understanding of Job, while Job's confession at the end is completely occluded, to the point that Job is made into an archetype of Christ, even.

Job was a sinner, who reaped what he sowed, and confessed his sin, and was forgiven.
i believe this is intentionally occluded in the Book, because we also might have trouble seeing that we have more work to do after accepting Christ.

Even Job's confessions are cryptic, and make no logical sense. Note that he is acclaimed for his proper speech by God, and then in the very next sentence he is repenting of his speech, a logical fallacy, put there on purpose, that you could search the rest of the day and not find an explanation for i bet. Or even a treatment of.

mjrhealth · Sep 16, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
Do I understand it all...NO!!

Yes i understand it but i dont, gets that way, its all about the people, God loves up, He desires we love Him, He will not force anyone to love Him for that is not love.

mjrhealth · Sep 16, 2017

breathofdesire said:
punished

clearly not the right word.

GodsGrace · Sep 16, 2017

"ByGrace" said:
In fairness to @face2face I have to say that I have heard some doctrines that Satan is the Left hand of God.
I struggle with the whole thing...I can swing both ways.
But my problem always comes when I think that God made him, and God uses him as a tool to perfect and mature us...and at The End, after a job 'well done' by him...his reward is to get chucked into fire to burn for ever and ever!!
View attachment 1097 So I can't go there at all...it all sounds like craziness.
I have heard the both sides issue....but nothing I have heard in my 50+ years of being a Christian has witnessed to my heart where I can say...YES, I "see it" I can take that, understand that, and make it mine. I still do not get it.
God is not a schizophrenic.
Nothing yet satisfies me.

Nothing ever will !

GodsGrace · Sep 16, 2017

101G said:
Evil have it place and it have a purpose. God created evil for a purpose, it's how one use evil. question can you control evil, or do evil control you. as Shakespeare to be or not to be that is the question. Evil can be for destruction , but it can be used for correction. let me give some natural example. Our father's in the flesh. we Loved them but at the same time feared them. because if we didn't obey we knew what would happen, spanking. so was the spanking GOOD, NO... (smile). but notice the same man that spanked us is is the same man that we crawled into his arms and he loved us. same man, now how much more our heavenly Father loves. the apostle Paul made it clear, Hebrews 12:7-9 "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" see breathofdesire, putting it in morden language, God don't have a bunch of bay bay kids running around here on earth. training began at home.

hope this helps.

Just read the first sentence and then stopped.

You said "God created evil".

God is LOVE.
God IS love.
NOT God HAS love.

1 John 4:8

God is ALL GOOD.
NOT God is good.
He is ALL GOOD, there is no evil in Him.

So...

How did a perfectly loving and good being create evil?
and for our own good.

Do you beat up your dog every now and then to teach him things?
And YOU aren't even all love or all good.

Since I didn't finish reading your post, I DO apologize if I've misunderstood.
But I don't think I have...

You seem to attribute evilness go God.

face2face · Sep 16, 2017

The Bible clearly teaches that God is not the “author of evil,” (evil is a finite part of Gods creation) at the same time, dozens of passages speak of God creating, sending, planning, and foreordaining evil! These passages are enough to show that while God is not the “author of evil” in the sense of being the agent of it, or of being accountable for it, yet, in some sense God “creates evil,” “sends evil,” “means it for good,” etc. Surely these passages mean something and not nothing! (See: Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6; Job 2:10; Genesis 50:20; Deuteronomy 29:21; Joshua 23:15; Judges 2:15; Judges 9:23–24; 1 Samuel 18:10, 11; 1 Kings 9:9; 1 Kings 21:21, 29; 2 Kings 6:33; Exodus 4:11; 1 Samuel 2:6–7; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36.)

Quoted from The Battle of the Gods

Job · Sep 16, 2017

Why is so important for you to have people believe that God and Satan are one in the same?

o

Dcopymope · Sep 16, 2017

Job said:
Why is so important for you to have people believe that God and Satan are one in the same?

o

If God is Satan, as people like "face2face" believe, then who is it that gets tossed in the lake of fire? Are they trying to say that God is tossing himself in the fire to be punished for all eternity?

(Revelation 20:9-10) "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. {10} And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Oh boy, the tripe people spew. Why this is not considered blasphemy of the highest magnitude by the moderators is beyond my understanding.

Satan - a bitter, jealous adversary of Job

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