It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

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twinc

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Mary,

Again you have committed a Genetic Fallacy (the Fallacy of Origins). It is erroneous reasoning. We cannot have a logical discussion when you do this.

As that link demonstrates, the Genetic Fallacy bases its claim for truth on the origin of the claim. Here you have asked if St Augustine got it wrong or did I get it wrong?

The logical form of this argument is:
  1. The origin of the claim of Mary's perpetual virginity is presented - St Augustine or OzSpen;
  2. Therefore the claim is true or false.
The fact that St Augustine taught the perpetual virginity of Mary, does not make the perpetual virginity the truth. That St Augustine taught this is irrelevant to the claim that the perpetual virginity is correct.

We need to present the evidence from Scripture and not from St Augustine, Luther, Calvin or John Wesley.

Oz


of course there is evidence from Scripture but it does not say you are the one mentioned - it is as at Matt 16:19 & 18:18 - twinc
 

Marymog

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Mary,

Why don't you acknowledge that you committed a Genetic Fallacy?

Oz
My dear, Dear Oz,

Why don't you answer the question?

Because it would reveal your hypocrisy?

Curious Mary
 

bbyrd009

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I, and greater theologians than you and, have presented evidence for the biblical AND non biblical (historical writings) evidence that they were not Mary's children. Why is that not enough for you? Maybe you're not listening?
oh, wait, thought you guys had already settled that Jesus' brother James is mentioned like 10 times
 
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amadeus

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Catholics do worship Mary
I was one for 37 years
My family and my wife's family are all catholics
they do worship Mary and not Jesus
Aye, perhaps according the RCC official stance, they are not supposed to, but in fact many of them do. I also was once one of them. The distinction was never brought home to me that I should not be worshipping Mary. Quite the contrary.
 

OzSpen

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Hi Oz,

That is a non-answer. I will answer for you: No, Marymog, I can not find anywhere in the NT that gives the names of Mary's other children.

I, and greater theologians than you and, have presented evidence for the biblical AND non biblical (historical writings) evidence that they were not Mary's children. Why is that not enough for you? Maybe you're not listening?

Curious Mary

Mary,

Again you resort to a Genetic Fallacy. I will not continue discussions with you if you continue to do this as it is impossible to have a rational discussion when you resort to fallacies.

Did Jesus' have brothers and sisters? Yes, he did and I've given you biblical evidence for this. What did Thayer give as the meaning in his lexicon?

ἀδελφός, (οῦ, ὁ (from ἆ copulative and δελφύς, from the same womb; cf. ἀγάστωρ) (from Homer down);

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matthew 1:2; Matthew 4:18, and often. That 'the brethren of Jesus,' Matthew 12:46, 47 (but WH only in marginal reading); f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels (cf. Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N. T. i. 362f)), nor cousins, the children of Alphaeus or Cleophas (i. e. Clopas) and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine (cf. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:2, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 (only in R G); Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱόν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱόν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles. See further on this point under Ἰάκωβος, 3. (Cf. B. D. under the word ; Andrews, Life of our Lord, pp. 104-116; Bib. Sacr. for 1864, pp. 855-869; for 1869, pp. 745-758; Laurent, N. T. Studien, pp. 153-193; McClellan, note on Matthew 13:55.)

2. according to a Hebrew use of אָח (Exodus 2:11; Exodus 4:18, etc.), hardly to be met with in secular authors, having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, countryman; so the Jews (as the σπέρμα Ἀβραάμ, υἱοί Ἰσραήλ, cf. Acts 13:26; (in Deuteronomy 15:3 opposed to ὁ ἀλλότριος, cf. Acts 17:15; Acts 15:12; Philo de septen. § 9 at the beginning)) are called ἀδελφοί: Matthew 5:47; Acts 3:22 (Deuteronomy 18:15); ; Romans 9:3; in address, Acts 2:29; Acts 3:17; Acts 23:1; Hebrews 7:5.

3. just as in Leviticus 19:17 the word אָח is used interchangeably with רֵַעַ (but, as Leviticus 19:16, 18 show, in speaking of Israelites), so in the sayings of Christ, Matthew 5:22, 24; Matthew 7:3ff, ἀδελφός is used for ὁ πλησίον to denote (as appears from Luke 10:29ff) any fellow-man — as having one and the same father with others, viz. God (Hebrews 2:11), and as descended from the same first ancestor (Acts 17:26); cf. Epictetus diss. 1, 13, 3.

4. a fellow-believer, united to another by the bond of affection; so most frequently of Christians, constituting as it were but a single family: Matthew 23:8; John 21:23; Acts 6:3 (Lachmann omits); ; Galatians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 5:11; Philippians 1:14, etc.; in courteous address, Romans 1:13; Romans 7:1; 1 Corinthians 1:10; 1 John 2:7 Rec., and often elsewhere; yet in the phraseology of John it has reference to the new life unto which men are begotten again by the efficiency of a common father, even God: 1 John 2:9ff; ; etc., cf. 1 John 5:1.

5. an associate in employment or office: 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 2:13(12); Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 1:1.

6. brethren of Christ is used of,

a. his brothers by blood; see 1 above.

b. all men: Matthew 25:40 (Lachmann brackets); Hebrews 2:11f (others refer these examples to d.)

c. apostles: Matthew 28:10; John 20:17.

d. Christians, as those who are destined to be exalted to the same heavenly δόξα (which see, III. 4 b.) which he enjoys: Romans 8:29.​

Did Mary have children? Thayer's etymology of adelphos is 'a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother)'. Yes, she could have had children to Joseph.

What did a Jewish couple do after they were married? The traditional Jewish view of marriage was to have children after the marriage. See: Jewish views on Marriage.

Oz
 
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twinc

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Aye, perhaps according the RCC official stance, they are not supposed to, but in fact many of them do. I also was once one of them. The distinction was never brought home to me that I should not be worshipping Mary. Quite the contrary.



not at all surprised - some Catholics it seems even accept that the Pope is infallible whereas it is the Holy Spirit that is infallible really and actually - twinc
 
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amadeus

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not at all surprised - some Catholics it seems even accept that the Pope is infallible whereas it is the Holy Spirit that is infallible really and actually - twinc
Very good twinc. You and I so seldom seem to be on the same page.
 
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bbyrd009

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Mary,

Again you resort to a Genetic Fallacy. I will not continue discussions with you if you continue to do this as it is impossible to have a rational discussion when you resort to fallacies.

Did Jesus' have brothers and sisters? Yes, he did and I've given you biblical evidence for this. What did Thayer give as the meaning in his lexicon?

ἀδελφός, (οῦ, ὁ (from ἆ copulative and δελφύς, from the same womb; cf. ἀγάστωρ) (from Homer down);

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matthew 1:2; Matthew 4:18, and often. That 'the brethren of Jesus,' Matthew 12:46, 47 (but WH only in marginal reading); f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels (cf. Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N. T. i. 362f)), nor cousins, the children of Alphaeus or Cleophas (i. e. Clopas) and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine (cf. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:2, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 (only in R G); Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱόν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱόν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles. See further on this point under Ἰάκωβος, 3. (Cf. B. D. under the word ; Andrews, Life of our Lord, pp. 104-116; Bib. Sacr. for 1864, pp. 855-869; for 1869, pp. 745-758; Laurent, N. T. Studien, pp. 153-193; McClellan, note on Matthew 13:55.)

2. according to a Hebrew use of אָח (Exodus 2:11; Exodus 4:18, etc.), hardly to be met with in secular authors, having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, countryman; so the Jews (as the σπέρμα Ἀβραάμ, υἱοί Ἰσραήλ, cf. Acts 13:26; (in Deuteronomy 15:3 opposed to ὁ ἀλλότριος, cf. Acts 17:15; Acts 15:12; Philo de septen. § 9 at the beginning)) are called ἀδελφοί: Matthew 5:47; Acts 3:22 (Deuteronomy 18:15); ; Romans 9:3; in address, Acts 2:29; Acts 3:17; Acts 23:1; Hebrews 7:5.

3. just as in Leviticus 19:17 the word אָח is used interchangeably with רֵַעַ (but, as Leviticus 19:16, 18 show, in speaking of Israelites), so in the sayings of Christ, Matthew 5:22, 24; Matthew 7:3ff, ἀδελφός is used for ὁ πλησίον to denote (as appears from Luke 10:29ff) any fellow-man — as having one and the same father with others, viz. God (Hebrews 2:11), and as descended from the same first ancestor (Acts 17:26); cf. Epictetus diss. 1, 13, 3.

4. a fellow-believer, united to another by the bond of affection; so most frequently of Christians, constituting as it were but a single family: Matthew 23:8; John 21:23; Acts 6:3 (Lachmann omits); ; Galatians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 5:11; Philippians 1:14, etc.; in courteous address, Romans 1:13; Romans 7:1; 1 Corinthians 1:10; 1 John 2:7 Rec., and often elsewhere; yet in the phraseology of John it has reference to the new life unto which men are begotten again by the efficiency of a common father, even God: 1 John 2:9ff; ; etc., cf. 1 John 5:1.

5. an associate in employment or office: 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 2:13(12); Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 1:1.

6. brethren of Christ is used of,

a. his brothers by blood; see 1 above.

b. all men: Matthew 25:40 (Lachmann brackets); Hebrews 2:11f (others refer these examples to d.)

c. apostles: Matthew 28:10; John 20:17.

d. Christians, as those who are destined to be exalted to the same heavenly δόξα (which see, III. 4 b.) which he enjoys: Romans 8:29.​

Did Mary have children? Thayer's etymology of adelphos is 'a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother)'. Yes, she could have had children to Joseph.

What did a Jewish couple do after they were married? The traditional Jewish view of marriage was to have children after the marriage. See: Jewish views on Marriage.

Oz
to suggest that Joseph and Mary had no other sons to carry on Joseph's line would actually be saying that they were cursed, too.
 

BreadOfLife

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I read it.
This pope wants to make ammends with the Protestants.
He may be stopped somewhat by those in charge of the Vatican.
We shall soon see.
And this is completely false. You were wrong about the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans - and you're wrong here.
This Pope has been misquoted more than any other world leader in history.

Don't get your theological information from the internet.
Go to the source.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Aye, perhaps according the RCC official stance, they are not supposed to, but in fact many of them do. I also was once one of them. The distinction was never brought home to me that I should not be worshipping Mary. Quite the contrary.
Total manure.
The Church condemns worship of anybody or anything other than God:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47


You MAY have been a Catholic at one point - but it sounds like you were a very ignorant one.
 
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BreadOfLife

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not at all surprised - some Catholics it seems even accept that the Pope is infallible whereas it is the Holy Spirit that is infallible really and actually - twinc
The Pope IS infallible - but only in matters of teaching faith and morals. and only because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The Pope is not impeccable.
 

Marymog

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Mary,

Again you resort to a Genetic Fallacy. I will not continue discussions with you if you continue to do this as it is impossible to have a rational discussion when you resort to fallacies.

Did Jesus' have brothers and sisters? Yes, he did and I've given you biblical evidence for this. What did Thayer give as the meaning in his lexicon?

ἀδελφός, (οῦ, ὁ (from ἆ copulative and δελφύς, from the same womb; cf. ἀγάστωρ) (from Homer down);

1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matthew 1:2; Matthew 4:18, and often. That 'the brethren of Jesus,' Matthew 12:46, 47 (but WH only in marginal reading); f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels (cf. Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N. T. i. 362f)), nor cousins, the children of Alphaeus or Cleophas (i. e. Clopas) and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine (cf. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:2, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 (only in R G); Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱόν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱόν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles. See further on this point under Ἰάκωβος, 3. (Cf. B. D. under the word ; Andrews, Life of our Lord, pp. 104-116; Bib. Sacr. for 1864, pp. 855-869; for 1869, pp. 745-758; Laurent, N. T. Studien, pp. 153-193; McClellan, note on Matthew 13:55.)

2. according to a Hebrew use of אָח (Exodus 2:11; Exodus 4:18, etc.), hardly to be met with in secular authors, having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, countryman; so the Jews (as the σπέρμα Ἀβραάμ, υἱοί Ἰσραήλ, cf. Acts 13:26; (in Deuteronomy 15:3 opposed to ὁ ἀλλότριος, cf. Acts 17:15; Acts 15:12; Philo de septen. § 9 at the beginning)) are called ἀδελφοί: Matthew 5:47; Acts 3:22 (Deuteronomy 18:15); ; Romans 9:3; in address, Acts 2:29; Acts 3:17; Acts 23:1; Hebrews 7:5.

3. just as in Leviticus 19:17 the word אָח is used interchangeably with רֵַעַ (but, as Leviticus 19:16, 18 show, in speaking of Israelites), so in the sayings of Christ, Matthew 5:22, 24; Matthew 7:3ff, ἀδελφός is used for ὁ πλησίον to denote (as appears from Luke 10:29ff) any fellow-man — as having one and the same father with others, viz. God (Hebrews 2:11), and as descended from the same first ancestor (Acts 17:26); cf. Epictetus diss. 1, 13, 3.

4. a fellow-believer, united to another by the bond of affection; so most frequently of Christians, constituting as it were but a single family: Matthew 23:8; John 21:23; Acts 6:3 (Lachmann omits); ; Galatians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 5:11; Philippians 1:14, etc.; in courteous address, Romans 1:13; Romans 7:1; 1 Corinthians 1:10; 1 John 2:7 Rec., and often elsewhere; yet in the phraseology of John it has reference to the new life unto which men are begotten again by the efficiency of a common father, even God: 1 John 2:9ff; ; etc., cf. 1 John 5:1.

5. an associate in employment or office: 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 2:13(12); Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 1:1.

6. brethren of Christ is used of,

a. his brothers by blood; see 1 above.

b. all men: Matthew 25:40 (Lachmann brackets); Hebrews 2:11f (others refer these examples to d.)

c. apostles: Matthew 28:10; John 20:17.

d. Christians, as those who are destined to be exalted to the same heavenly δόξα (which see, III. 4 b.) which he enjoys: Romans 8:29.​

Did Mary have children? Thayer's etymology of adelphos is 'a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother)'. Yes, she could have had children to Joseph.

What did a Jewish couple do after they were married? The traditional Jewish view of marriage was to have children after the marriage. See: Jewish views on Marriage.

Oz
Hi Oz,

I am not disagreeing with your conclusion that Mary "could have had children with Joseph". The question at hand is did she. Since scripture only names Jesus as her child, I choose to agree with scripture. The ONLY evidence from historical writings is that she DID NOT have any other children.

Therefor the truth scale, scripture and historical writings, is balanced more toward her NOT having any child other than Jesus.

Funny how my question to you is a fallacy, however, as you may have noticed I only re-asked the question you asked me. I used YOUR question. So if my question to you is a fallacy, isn't your question to me a fallacy? I will admit to a genetic fallacy. Are you going to admit to being a hypocrite?

Curious Mary
 
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amadeus

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Total manure.
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt 12:36
Is it not an idle word to condemn someone who speaks their heart even though the heart may be in error?


The Church condemns worship of anybody or anything other than God:

******************************************
You MAY have been a Catholic at one point - but it sounds like you were a very ignorant one.

Yes, I was ignorant, but I was a child. No one in my family attended any church, RCC or otherwise, although nominally they were RCC. I alone of my family attended mass regularly and I wanted to learn. I thought I was, and yes, indeed, I was even though what I was learning was wrong even according to the RCC.

All of my knowledge of Catholicism at the time came from nuns and priests. They were all good people as to the way they lived from I could see. But... being good in manners in not enough, is it? I wasn't even aware that the following verses existed when I was a practicing Catholic. But as you say and I agree, I was ignorant. To whom would the words apply:

"But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand." Ezek 33:6-8
 

Marymog

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not at all surprised - some Catholics it seems even accept that the Pope is infallible whereas it is the Holy Spirit that is infallible really and actually - twinc
Hi twinc,

To whom does the Holy Spirit speak thru?

Mary
 

GodsGrace

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oh, wait, thought you guys had already settled that Jesus' brother James is mentioned like 10 times
And this is completely false. You were wrong about the Joint Declaration with the Lutherans - and you're wrong here.
This Pope has been misquoted more than any other world leader in history.

Don't get your theological information from the internet.
Go to the source.
LOL
 

BreadOfLife

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"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." Matt 12:36
Is it not an idle word to condemn someone who speaks their heart even though the heart may be in error?


Yes, I was ignorant, but I was a child. No one in my family attended any church, RCC or otherwise, although nominally they were RCC. I alone of my family attended mass regularly and I wanted to learn. I thought I was, and yes, indeed, I was even though what I was learning was wrong even according to the RCC.

All of my knowledge of Catholicism at the time came from nuns and priests. They were all good people as to the way they lived from I could see. But... being good in manners in not enough, is it? I wasn't even aware that the following verses existed when I was a practicing Catholic. But as you say and I agree, I was ignorant. To whom would the words apply:

"But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand." Ezek 33:6-8
And it's not the ignorant child that I am taking issue with - but the voluntarily-ignorant adult.
You make statements like the one below not because you don't know any better - but because you WON'T investigate to learn that you are dead wrong:
"The distinction was never brought home to me that I should not be worshipping Mary. Quite the contrary."
 

GodsGrace

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And it's not the ignorant child that I am taking issue with - but the voluntarily-ignorant adult.
You make statements like the one below not because you don't know any better - but because you WON'T investigate to learn that you are dead wrong:
"The distinction was never brought home to me that I should not be worshipping Mary. Quite the contrary."
Let me say this...
It's JESUS who saves us.
NOT doctrine.

I agree with you that it's nice that you correct the imperceptions people have regarding Catholicism. I've done this myself, believe it or not.

However, we have nothing to investigate other than the will of our Lord.

And...
I don't use the internet.
I assume nothing of you, please do the same.
 
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amadeus

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And it's not the ignorant child that I am taking issue with - but the voluntarily-ignorant adult.
You make statements like the one below not because you don't know any better - but because you WON'T investigate to learn that you are dead wrong:
"The distinction was never brought home to me that I should not be worshipping Mary. Quite the contrary."
Am I voluntarily ignorant? At times, for at times I give in to becoming "weary in well doing" [II Thess 3:13]. But, what believer is there that has not done this? So then we turn again to God and along with Jesus say, "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." [from Matt 26:39].

But having admitted that, I must also say that every morning I spend my time with God reading the scriptures and praying. This plus more time during much of many days. Is this enough? No, for as the Apostle Paul writes:

"Rejoice evermore.
Pray without ceasing.
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:16-19

Also he writes:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom 12:1-2

The time will come when the stone "cut out without hands" will smite the image on his feet of iron and clay. Let us, neither of us, be within those feet, but rather in the stone.

Thank you dear Lord for thy mercy and thy Love.
 
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