Satan - who was he in the book of Job?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,157
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
@face2face I am still reading your posts. But I still have many unanswered questions.

What do you do with the scriptures that say that' Jesus cast out the demons?'
That Jesus commanded demons to be quiet when they shouted out Matt 8:29:-"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

I am still do not know how God can throw Satan into the fire if he is a part of Himself.?

What about the Gadarene man who had a legion of demons , and the demons begged Jesus to not cast them into the pit?

If Satan is not a spirit being...what are his demons??
I still have not seen you answer these questions.

Looking for your reply. Thank you.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Job and Dcopymope

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@face2face I am still reading your posts. But I still have many unanswered questions.

What do you do with the scriptures that say that' Jesus cast out the demons?'
That Jesus commanded demons to be quiet when they shouted out Matt 8:29:-"And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"

I am still do not know how God can throw Satan into the fire if he is a part of Himself.?

What about the Gadarene man who had a legion of demons , and the demons begged Jesus to not cast them into the pit?

If Satan is not a spirit being...what are his demons??
I still have not seen you answer these questions.

Looking for your reply. Thank you.

And if Satan is not a spirit being, then why is he referred to as the prince of those spirits we know as devils, as a "principality" who rules over the 'powers of the air'? I'm not expecting a real answer from him, nor do I care at this point. This is just me living up to my slogan, to "let the Bible speak for itself and letting all men be liars".

(Ephesians 2:2-3) "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: {3} Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

(Mark 3:22-26) "¶ And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. {23} And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? {24} And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. {25} And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. {26} And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end."

According to the OP, since God and Satan are one, then he is in effect accusing Jesus of casting out devils in the name of the Devil. :eek: I would hate to be this guy on judgement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,777
636
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
@face2face I am still reading your posts. But I still have many unanswered questions.

What do you do with the scriptures that say that' Jesus cast out the demons?'

Would you be offended if I said “jumping from one rabbit hole to another is not going to help you understand the message of Job’s sufferings or how the adversary plays an insignificant part to this story unlike the creature you imply?”

Better for you to exhaust all your questions on Job chapters 1 & 2 than run to a different book, chapter and subject which by the way is totally unrelated to the subject of Biblical adversaries.

I do appreciate you reading the posts but I question your level of discernment at this stage in the discussion.

F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,777
636
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
And if Satan is not a spirit being, then why is he referred to as the prince of those spirits we know as devils, as a "principality" who rules over the 'powers of the air'? I'm not expecting a real answer from him, nor do I care at this point. This is just me living up to my slogan, to "let the Bible speak for itself and letting all men be liars".

Ditto once again.

Let’s be honest, your involvement in this discussion has not even come within Koo-Wee of the spiritual discernment of 1 John 4:1 – not once have you asked an intelligent question concerning Job, the adversary, or the books content.

If you move on you can be at peace.

F2F
 

Job

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2014
2,664
1,309
113
somewhere
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Better for you to exhaust all your questions on Job chapters 1 & 2 than run to a different book, chapter and subject which by the way is totally unrelated to the subject of Biblical adversaries.
I do appreciate you reading the posts but I question your level of discernment at this stage in the discussion.


You speak of someone's lack of discernment when you yourself are unable to see that the devil spoken of in Job is the same devil that's spoken of in the rest of the scriptures.

Instead of blowing her off and calling her stupid, why don't you just answer her questions? It shouldn't be that hard, you have your dictionary.

o
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,777
636
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You speak of someone's lack of discernment when you yourself are unable to see that the devil spoken of in Job is the same devil that's spoken of in the rest of the scriptures.

Instead of blowing her off and calling her stupid, why don't you just answer her questions? It shouldn't be that hard, you have your dictionary.

o

@"ByGrace"

Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology & Counseling

"In recent years some Christian theologians have attempted to demythologize the Bible’s teaching on demons and demonic involvement in human life or have otherwise characterized it as prescientific, superstitious thinking."

However, the New Testament includes more than one hundred references to the existence of demons; it is clear that Jesus taught that demons are real and that they cause a variety of physical and mental disorders.

So the flip here is that illness' were characterised as being a demon because its cause was medically unknown. Medicine has come a long way that the superstition surrounding these disorders is not prevalent today. Only a few confused uninformed Christians hold onto the teaching of "evil spirits" and "mythological creatures".

To assist you all in this area I suggest you look at these Biblical References in the following way:

1. Description (look at the verse and context)
2. Vernacular at the time of Jesus (the type of wording used to describe the illness)
3. Diagnosis Today (How would the symptoms be diagnosed today)

Here is an example:

1. Matthew 12:22 "Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil {'daimonizomai; demoniae', R.S.V.}, and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw
2. "possessed with a devil {demon}"
3. blind and dumb

So today it would take a brave Christian to go up to our "deaf" or "dumb" employees at work and say they are possessed by a demon.

No, the reality is they have an illness of the flesh which in those days was characterised as a demon.

In this case the subject was healed of the illness where the Greek states tn Grk “demoniac, and he healed him, so that the mute man spoke and saw.”

Patients today with the same symptoms as those said to be possessed with demons in New Testament times, respond to chemotherapy. This is significant, for if indeed the ailment were due to demon possession, as some suggest, how can the patient's recovery through medicine and therapy be explained?

Can pills cast out demons?

Legion is a great example of this truth.

1. Mark 5:1-5 "No man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could anyman tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones."

2. "a man with an unclean spirit"

3. insanity,schizophrenia??

After the miraculous cure by Jesus, Legion is described as "clothed and in his right mind." (Mark 5:15). This implies that his affliction was a mental illness and not the influence of a fallen angel. (The request that the unclean spirits enter the swine is characteristic of some kinds of schizophrenics who fear the return of the insanity).

Now I could go through every occurrence and establish the same outcome.

In relation to my original point...what do medical illnesses have to do with adversaries?

Little to Nothing!

Context is King!

F2F

p.s. See also John 10:20; Mark 3:21 where "he hath a devil and is mad" means "he is beside himself." :) (Reading and interpreting the Bible carefully)
 
Last edited:

Dcopymope

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2016
2,650
800
113
36
Motor City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You speak of someone's lack of discernment when you yourself are unable to see that the devil spoken of in Job is the same devil that's spoken of in the rest of the scriptures.

Instead of blowing her off and calling her stupid, why don't you just answer her questions? It shouldn't be that hard, you have your dictionary.

o

I decided to put him on ignore, anyone claiming to be a believer who blasphemes the Holy Spirit isn't worthy of my attention. :)
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,777
636
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
God is free to do as He likes.
But He's LOVE. Can He be divided from His love?

Equating God's discipline as something evil, couldn’t be further from the truth.

I think I have already referred to Hebrew 12:5-11 but here we see how Job's life was characterised by trial. The whole Bible is an account of faithful believers persevering under prolonged trial, and the Word of God assures them of its beneficial purpose as discipline.

If God scourges a Son out of Love who are we to question?
If “The fire of God has fallen from heaven and has burned up the sheep and the servants—it has consumed them!" and its done to test faith who are we to question God?

Its all there.

F2F
 
Last edited:

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,777
636
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Job is a book, probably the first one written and oldest in the O.T., by someone who was trying to understand why there is such trouble and heartache in the world.

It must surely be used to teach many things. But that God causes us to suffer to win a bet with satan is not one of them.

I'm not sure where this idea has emanated from? God's plan is for the reconcilaition of all involved, including the adversary.

That is the Love you are referring too.

God chastises us because we NATURALLY suffer when we do not follow His rules.

I agree.

However, "fire sent from God which is called fire of God" is not something we naturally suffer from...especially if its divinely directed with such precision. Also, the likelihood of a person surviving each time to report this to Job is again God's care to ensure Job knows God is doing these things and is in control...and Job has no sin in mind for such retribution to be claimed.

You say the adversary's identity is not in view.

Who do you think the adversary was?

I am convinced it was an envious brother or fellow believer in his community.

What do you find odd about the way the book of Job opens? (Please answer!)

1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. And that man was pure and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil. 2 Seven sons and three daughters were born to him. 3 His possessions included 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, and 500 female donkeys; in addition he had a very great household. Thus he was the greatest of all the people in the land.


In light of the adversary what is the narrative setting up?

F2F
 
Last edited:

tabletalk

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2017
847
384
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You must be a Calvanist F2F.
You're serving a different God than the one represented in the bible.

So, can a Calvinist be saved? Serving a different God than the "one represented in the bible" is serving an idol, I think.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,157
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
@"ByGrace"

Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology & Counseling

To assist you all in this area I suggest you look at these Biblical References in the following way

Well I finally have GOT IT!! You do not have ANSWERS. You just stick to what is "safe" for you to parrot.

You have no answer for the legion of demons who spoke to Jesus and He cast them into the deep.
You have no answer for the demons that said " You are the son of God and have come to torment us before our time" Which He rebuked and told them to shut up.
These were not "diseases" He was speaking to, but Spirit personalities.

And as I mentioned days ago.....it is plain obvious that YOU have never ministered to demonizes people , or spoken to them and commanded demons to come out...and SEEN and heard the demons LEAVE. I have...but I suppose I imagined it all! o_O
You try to rationalize the scriptures away....but better than you have tried and failed, they STAND.
You need to get before GOD and hear for yourself. Not just believe 'the lemon' that somebody sold you!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dcopymope and Job

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,777
636
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Well I finally have GOT IT!! You do not have ANSWERS. You just stick to what is "safe" for you to parrot.

You have no answer for the legion of demons who spoke to Jesus and He cast them into the deep.
You have no answer for the demons that said " You are the son of God and have come to torment us before our time" Which He rebuked and told them to shut up.
These were not "diseases" He was speaking to, but Spirit personalities.

And as I mentioned days ago.....it is plain obvious that YOU have never ministered to demonizes people , or spoken to them and commanded demons to come out...and SEEN and heard the demons LEAVE. I have...but I suppose I imagined it all! o_O
You try to rationalize the scriptures away....but better than you have tried and failed, they STAND.
You need to get before GOD and hear for yourself. Not just believe 'the lemon' that somebody sold you!!!

Passage: Luke 13:11-17 "A woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself."
Vernacular in Jesus day: Spirit of infirmity
Diagnosis today: Arthritis

Cultural context is a large part of understanding the Bible, especially the superstition that existed 2000 years ago.
People with arthritis today do not have an evil spirit in them.
You know this to be true though unwilling to speak reasonably on the subject.

These studies have been a life's work and with 100 passages to quote, at what point will you understand there is no supernatural dragon of evil, nor is there evil spirits wafting around the ether.

Logic must prevail with the removal of unscriptural notions.

F2F
 
Last edited:

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,656
7,923
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
F2F, I am not leaving(curbing time here) because of others. It is me. For some reason, I have lived in isolation. Now, I long for relationship with His. This, the board, as much as I like to speak to others about the Word; boards and post do not = relationship. There is an ache in me. I can't figure the gnawing out. There needs to be more prayer and seeking; less board.

I am not ready to voice there is no devil, or evil spirits: only the ugly nature of corruptible flesh. It seems something entices it. Scripture says: God does not tempt. I did read your post on illness; I would agree...yet I have seen evil. I have stared in the face of cruelty and it seemed very spiritual in nature. I do believe we can benefit from staring into the leviathan which is obviously flesh and agree: our(mans) attempt to subdue the flesh is a fools errand. It takes God's power. It is nothing we can do.

I do ask others to consider: God in the flesh(The Son) was crucified for our benefit. The bloody crucifixion, we will accept because it benefits us. Was God, the ONE who purposed and fulfilled the crucifixion on our behalf...demonstrating love??

If you can't even look into the Word and seek all parts of an Holy God(a God that does not change) and trust that He IS good, even in what we do not understand. Then how can you say you know Him?


Daniel 3:17 KJV
[17] If it be so , our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.

Daniel 2:19-23 KJV
[19] Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven. [20] Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: [21] And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: [22] He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. [23] I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.

Daniel 3:24-25 KJV
[24] Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. [25] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 26] Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither . Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, came forth of the midst of the fire. [27] And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them. [28] Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.



Ezekiel 14:21-23 KJV

[21] For thus saith the Lord God ; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? [22] Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. [23] And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God .

Mans destruction destroys without cause.
God does not do anything without cause.

Mans vengeance accomplishes NOTHING.
Gods vengeance accomplishes EVERYTHING.


Ezekiel 16 KJV
For thus saith the Lord God ; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant. [60] Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. [61] Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. [62] And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the Lord : [63] That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord God .

Ezekiel 17:12-24 KJV
[12] Say now to the rebellious house, Know ye not what these things mean ? tell them , Behold, the king of Babylon is come to Jerusalem, and hath taken the king thereof, and the princes thereof, and led them with him to Babylon; [13] And hath taken of the king's seed, and made a covenant with him, and hath taken an oath of him: he hath also taken the mighty of the land: [14] That the kingdom might be base, that it might not lift itself up, but that by keeping of his covenant it might stand. [15] But he rebelled against him in sending his ambassadors into Egypt, that they might give him horses and much people. Shall he prosper? shall he escape that doeth such things ? or shall he break the covenant, and be delivered? [16] As I live, saith the Lord God , surely in the place where the king dwelleth that made him king, whose oath he despised, and whose covenant he brake, even with him in the midst of Babylon he shall die. [17] Neither shall Pharaoh with his mighty army and great company make for him in the war, by casting up mounts, and building forts, to cut off many persons: [18] Seeing he despised the oath by breaking the covenant, when, lo, he had given his hand, and hath done all these things , he shall not escape. [19] Therefore thus saith the Lord God ; As I live, surely mine oath that he hath despised, and my covenant that he hath broken, even it will I recompense upon his own head. [20] And I will spread my net upon him, and he shall be taken in my snare, and I will bring him to Babylon, and will plead with him there for his trespass that he hath trespassed against me. [21] And all his fugitives with all his bands shall fall by the sword, and they that remain shall be scattered toward all winds: and ye shall know that I the Lord have spoken it . [22] Thus saith the Lord God ; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set it ; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant it upon an high mountain and eminent: [23] In the mountain of the height of Israel will I plant it: and it shall bring forth boughs, and bear fruit, and be a goodly cedar: and under it shall dwell all fowl of every wing; in the shadow of the branches thereof shall they dwell. [24] And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it .

Psalm 78:18-20 KJV
[18] And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust. [19] Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness? [20] Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?

Yes. God can. And GOD did.


Psalm 78:41 KJV
[41] Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Let us not limit the Holy One of Israel.

1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 KJV
[12] And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men , even as we do toward you: [13] To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

The LORD has done it.
 

Job

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2014
2,664
1,309
113
somewhere
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Staying away from Luke 13 I see.
Hmmm.


Is this one of the un-scriptural notions you intend to remove from the Word? Good luck with that.



Luke 13
11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.


>snip<

16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?


o