Was James confused?

H. Richard said:

About producing fruit, good works are not the fruit a child of God is to produce.

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so you say, but

little children, do not be deceived

H. Richard said:

They never tell anyone what they really believe

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thank God for small favors i guess lol. Who needs people like that telling other people about their dead beliefs anyway

H. Richard said:

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Then no one needed Paul's gospel of grace, right?

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well, i suggest that there are better translations of Go and preach anyway, what a horrible way to put it.
Doctrine as defined by Paul was his manner of living, not some slogans about yesterday or tomorrow, at least imo.
So it follows that if we have jacked that all up, then prolly the Gospel has suffered too i guess.
Do you think Paul craved death in order to be "present with the Lord?"

H. Richard said:

***

Not the subject of this thread. Start your own.

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seems like that is maybe all the answer i need, i guess, ty.

i'll get "Paul's" Gospel from people like Paul, on the run and sold out to Christ, and i'd be avoiding getting It from anyone else profiting from It wadr. So to answer your question yes, they needed Paul's Gospel and no, It is usually not found anywhere near a church imo, as it clashes with their product

face2face said:

Interesting study.
I'll place this here and return soon with some thoughts. F2F

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what I found interesting was that at Titus 3, good works is recommended by Paul 4 times - twinc

H. Richard said:

The study:

Was James confused? Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.

Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV

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H. Richard

This post was very insightful...I like your approach.

I assume the confusion you allude too is finding a resolution to the problem of "works" opposed to Pauls teaching in "faith".

Formula:

Faith + works springing from faith = acceptance

Works are a necessary part of salvation but Works without faith is an inadequate basis for salvation.

We can ask why test Abraham if he had already been accepted in Genesis 15 through faith ALONE? (James 2:23)

Answer: Because faith must be put into practice as well as professed. The test demonstrated that Abraham’s faith was real (Hebrews 11:17)

Quote: "Now I know that you fear God, because you did not withhold your son" Genesis 22:12 NET

Its clear from Pauls view that he understood the role of works which is to take place at the Judgment Seat

I believe James understood the Scriptures very clearly and knew works will be used as a means for determining a person’s faith (2 Corinthians 5:10)

A case for this is seen in the Masters words in Matthew 25:37 - those who did these things would be accepted

Why?: Works based on faith

F2F

H. Richard said:

What is the mater with people? His shed blood atoned (paid) for all the sins of the world. The only requirement is that a person believes it.

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what is the matter is that comes across as one dimensional, and not acknowledging of "satan believes that stuff too" and the difference in beliefs and faith. I could leave you two tickets to the wedding gala at the front desk iow, but if you don't come pick them up you can't get in

H. Richard said:

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I see you want to include man's works in order to have salvation. That is not what I believe. When Jesus said it is finished it was finished. Everything necessary for salvation was accomplished on the cross. But a person has to place their faith (+ nothing) in His work, not the works of mankind.

What is the mater with people? His shed blood atoned (paid) for all the sins of the world. The only requirement is that a person believes it.

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A common mistake...if the work is done out of faith its not mans work

H. Richard said:

Faith is knowing they are there without having to prove they are there.

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well, sticking with that analogy then, just tell the ticket boy that you have not picked up (your cross), but you know it is there, and see if he lets you into the wedding gala!

H. Richard said:

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What is faith: it is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result.

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Firstly, faith is based on evidence, the Bible does not teach blind faith, as many of the evangelical church’s teach today.

For instance, if the LORD spoke to you and said "H.Richard, go out from your country, your relatives, and your father’s household to the land that I will show you."

1. The evidence here is the Angel's presence and the message from God (God's Word)
2. The unseen (land, country and by extension Kingdom) will be made seen by faith (Hebrews 11:3) - invisible made visable.
Therefore with Faith:
a. The unseen is more real than what is seen
b. The unseen is more powerful than the seen
c. Unseen always comes before the seen
3. The experience of faith here is 1. The country is invisible (you cannot see the land) 2. It is in the future (a journey is required) 3. it is seen as impossible (so far away its out of reach). Sarah having a child in old age is a great example of this!

What do you do and how will your faith work?

Faith must be in action which is an important part of the process of being saved.

Matthew 14:24-31 states, that Faith works patience and this is precisely why Abraham became the Father of the Faithful, because he was patient in waiting for a future city and while his faith worked strongly, he never received that which was promised to him in his lifetime, now awaiting the resurrection, something which also involves; the invisible, it is in the future, it is seen as impossible...though we have strong evidence in our Lord's resurrection and the accounts of eye witnesses.

So,

Faith Saves.
Faith Perfects.
Faith is in Suffering.
Faith is in Action
Faith is by Example

All these elements of faith are witnessed in the small list of faithful believers in Hebrews 11.

I have attached a list for your consideration.

In the Masters Service
F2F

H. Richard said:

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And who is the judge of child of God's actions caused by faith? Men preaching the law?

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John 12:48

I agree that Paul did a work of faith and that he spread the gospel of grace over the world after it was revealed to him, which, of course the religious mixed with the requirements of works in order to get and keep salvation.

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Paul was not against works in general. He explains that final judgment will involve the evaluation of works (Romans 2:7 &1 Corinthians 3:13-15. Paul also expects believers to“labor for the Lord 1 Corinthians 15:58. Most revealing of all, Ephesians 2:10 explains that believers are “created in Jesus Christ for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.”

However....

Paul is cautions against boasting in these works. In Romans 4:2 he says that if Abraham were justified “by works, he has something to boast about.” Of course he never did boast! Paul associates works of the law with the temptation to inflate and rely on oneself (See Romans 3:27).

It is my belief that I am, like Paul, doing the works that God has given me to do. But it is not a personal work of trying not to sin in the flesh in order to be saved. Why? Because I already am saved. Not by my works of not sinning in the flesh or the law of Moses. I am saved by the works of God (Jesus) on the cross and that is all I need.

Now will come those that will point out that I am really accepting works as a requirement for salvation. Not really. I was saved by faith in the work of God on the cross long before the internet existed. It is in the message of God's grace given to Paul trough revelation just as Peter's proclamation that Jesus was the Messiah and King was given to him by God in heaven through revelation. It will be given to anyone that places their belief, faith, trust and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross.

Do not deceive yourself, God knows those that do, and or will, place trust in Him. But most religous people place their faith and trust in their religions. They do not see that man named Jesus shedding His blood on the cross that atoned, paid for all the sins of the world.

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Balance is an even weight that ensures stability.

F2F

ya, good luck with that; if people wanna worship Nehushtan, not much you can do to stop them i guess

face2face said:

Paul is cautions against boasting in these works. In Romans 4:2 he says that if Abraham were justified “by works, he has something to boast about.” Of course he never did boast! Paul associates works of the law with the temptation to inflate and rely on oneself (See Romans 3:27).

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You only partially quoted (referenced) Rom 4:2. Its says, " for if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory, but not before God." the underlined part is important because James (perhaps unwittingly) said the same thing:

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James said he would show A MAN his faith by works. Paul said you have whereof to glory, but not before God.... Meaning if you have works it glorifies you in the eyes of men; not God.

Lets look at some other things that were said in light of this:

Ephesians 2:9 KJV
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It does not say lest he should boast. It says lest any man should boast. What am I getting at?

Galatians 6:13 KJV
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Your works don't count because God doesn't want you boasting about your works and he doesn't want others boasting about your works.

Also, consider Mat 6. We are to pray, give and fast, but not before others. If we do so, their recognition that you are so "godly" is your reward.

I saw earlier you stated that works are the evidence of faith. They are not. Faith doesn't need evidence. Faith IS the evidence of the unseen (Christ in you, the hope of glory). Any evidence of faith will also be unseen. So yes, I can believe in unseen works (I liken them to good works). But... They are all going to pertain to service of God.

If that is what James was apeaking of in hos epistle, I'd agree. Sadly though, through the book of Acts we see James was speaking of the law, which had been abolished. (Yes Richard...abolished! See 2 Cor 3)

I too believe Paul wasn't against works. But I believe through countless verses he makes a firm stance against them being neccessary for salvation or evidence of faith.

I'd also like to comment on Abraham, Isaac and Heb 11 because there is a big point that many miss: Abe had no problem with slaying Isaac! He wasn't fretting one bit about it.

But I will save that for another time.

James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

"Faith without works is dead", it is a dead faith. To put it another way, your faith as well as yourself are a fake. Many people today say that works are not necessary when you are a Christian. God is very natural in every thing that He does, and anything that will not work God does away with. When it is no longer of use, it returns back to its original elements. Rust or oxidation returns steel back to iron, oxygen and the elements that it was made of. Plants that die are decomposed to their original elements, and in faith, when the faith does not produce the natural order that it is intended to produce, it returns to what it was at the start. The natural order of any faith in Jesus Christ is to produce the works that your faith is suppose to produce. God gives each of us some form of gifts that He expects us to use and strengthen our faith. When we do not use those gifts, our faith dies, and returns to what we were before receiving the faith.

In the case of the handicapped, they have a very special gift, and their testimony means far more than someone that is old and without works. When the unbeliever sees someone handicapped that is a believer and has faith and works, it goes a long way in turning them to Christ. In Revelation 14:13 we are told exactly what we can take with us when we leave this life in our flesh bodies.

Revelation 14:13 "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforeth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them' "

Your works are the only thing that you take with you, for your works are already written in the book. It is what your eternal garment that you will be wearing for all eternity is made of. John was doing the writing as the Holy Spirit of Jesus is doing the talking, and telling John exactly what to write. Your labors are what you do in the flesh, not the spirit, it is what you do while in your flesh body. Your labors are your works and those things that you do for Christ and each of them follow you to heaven when you die, or at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Your works are what shows the quality of man or woman, boy or girl that you are.

Don't let some reverend or teacher rob you of those blessings that God has for you both now and in the eternity by telling you that works just don't count. They do count and they are the only thing that counts. They are what all of eternity is based upon, with regards to your rewards, your inheritance, your position and what you will be wearing throughout eternity. Let's go toRevelation 19:6-9 and see how our works are treated at the coming of the Lord, at the "marriage of the Lamb" to his bride [all the believers].

Revelation 19:6 "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia: for the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth."

This wedding takes place after the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ to set up His thousand year Millennium kingdom right here on earth. Each person that has by faith accepted Jesus as their Savior through their repentance in Jesus name, goes to make up the voice of a great multitude that is spoken of here.

Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."

Those of the elect that did not yield to Satan and his system when he came to the earth, but remained true to the seventh trumpet and the return of Jesus Christ, are the only ones that will enter into marriage supper of the Lamb, from our generation. Except for those that have died and passed on, of course. These are the ones that are making themselves ready for the supper.

Revelation 19:8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Friend, your righteous acts are the works that you have done while living in your flesh body here on earth, and at this time those acts are the only thing that will go to make up the fine linen that you will be wearing in the Millennium and in the eternity. Those works are the only thing that covers you at the marriage supper of the Lamb, that is where the rewards are given out, and where you are assign your inheritance.

Do you get the picture? Your faith is needed to get you into the supper, but to attend the supper you need to be properly dressed. It is your works that decide what you will be wearing to the supper. James then is saying that if your works are dead, so is your faith also, for it takes one to obtain the other. You are not saved by your works, but by your belief and faith in Jesus Christ, it is your works that tests whether your faith is genuine. Your works is the guard at the door to check to see if your ticket qualified you to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb, who is Jesus Christ. To see if you are a true man or woman of God, or just a cheap fake and counterfeit. There is no place setting at the supper table for those that think they can sneak in by some other means.

Revelation 19:9 "And he saith unto me, "Write, 'Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.' "

When your faith is checked out by your works, and those works are found to be true and genuine, God will truly bless you with His riches, as you become joint-heirs with Christ in that heavenly kingdom. Today it is common to hear that, "your works just don't matter." These are also the ones that tell you not to read the book of Revelation, and that the book of Revelation is not to be understood. They are the same old boys that think they can con the man at the door controlling the entering into the "marriage supper of the Lamb", and come up by some other way. They are the ones for you to mark well in anything that they say, and their words must be tested by the Word of God before being accepted, and there they will be found to be "hay and stubble, to be burned in the fire".

James is a very direct book and it gets said what must be said, especially to those that have blinded themselves to the book of Revelation.

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

Our Lord Jesus Christ hadn't walked the earth during the time of Abraham, and the faith teachers had not been born yet. Abraham was judged by the works and acts that he did by God, and God found Abraham to be righteous through those righteous acts. He had the faith to believe that God said what He meant, and Abraham acted on those words. Abraham was to old to have a child, and God comes along and gives Abraham and Sarah the ability to give birth to Isaac, which was a miracle birth. Sarah's womb was years past bearing age, for she is one hundred years old at the time of Isaac's birth. Isaac was a miracle child.

God had promised Abraham that "the seed of Isaac would be as the stars in the heavens and the sands of the sea", and Abraham believed God. Then when God asked Abraham to kill his son on an altar as a sacrifice to Him, Abraham was willing to do it, for Abraham trusted God, and knew that somehow God would raise Isaac from the dead if necessary to keep His Word. It was God's Word that was at stake, and Abraham did not question how God would do what He said that He would do. What mattered to Abraham was that he obey exactly as God instructed him to do. That is what is called "works", it is complete obedience to God's Word. Abraham knew that God would not lie, and that God was in control and would hold his hand with the blade in it, if that is what God desired.

This is works and putting your faith into action. This is why Abraham's works are counted as faith. This is stated again in Hebrews 11:8; "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he wit out, not knowing whither he went."

Hebrews 11:9 "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;"

God asked Abraham to do something, and He did it without question.