Satan - who was he in the book of Job?

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Stranger

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That's true pia.
The adversary as it relates to illness is the flesh nature. You only need to go back to the Law of Moses where all those skin conditions deemed a person unclean. Did you know the entire Law of Moses does not mention "once" the name Satan, Devil, or any other misunderstood name given. No warning - not one! We can comfortably conclude the OT is silent on a supernatural evil creature.

Who is 'we'?

Stranger
 
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amadeus

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That's correct substance and evidence...prove all things!
Prove them to whom? To myself alone by the means that God has given us. Don't try to make the scientific method the means for proving God to anyone. It may be supportive, but it cannot be final.

Correct believed in things hope for things which have plenty of evidence to support belief.

Science can and does support God's understanding and His plan and His Way, BUT... the only Way to God remains through Jesus.

You can look upon the heart? to discern through the internet a closed heart?
Anyone given the "eyes to see" by God for a specific purpose can see what He is shown. The Internet is a tool like the radio and television are tools. They cannot hinder God's work. Man can and does hinder it.

Sorry this is much of the same fluff 8 pages into this thread.
Do you realize how this sounds to others when you are talking about believers? Fluff?

Are you really a believer in God, His Son and the redemption of people by His Son? Fluff?

Is that what you call the simple faith of people who don't know what you are talking about? Would you try to teach Einstein's theories to children in special education classes? Fluff?

What is your purpose? How closely do you suppose it corresponds to God's purpose?

You seem to have some sincerity. Do you have faith in anything of God which you admit cannot be measured with man's methods and tools?

Do you understand what the following verses mean?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9


Luke 13 - the adversary was the illness which caused a daughter of Abraham to be bent over for eighteen years...if you believe some evil supernatural being "somehow" afflicted her with this disease, well that’s your prerogative, but I am here to show forth the truth concerning the word satan, its variety of uses in Scripture, and how it grammatically should be understood.
I sense there are a few genuine believers giving these thoughts sincere consideration.
F2F

Not long ago there was a large meeting where many very sincere Bible believing men from all over the United States and other nations who talked for several hours a day for nearly a week to determine if satan was an external separate being or simply the old man's ways manifested through men. Many of them did not really want to discuss it, but they put on charity and went ahead because the man who had called the meeting, a very wise man in many things of God, pressed them on it.

What do you suppose was the final result? There was no one at that meeting who did not know more about the Bible than most men, but they also had something else. They had the Spirit of God in most, if not all, of the individuals in attendance.

They received a lot of good things from God in that meeting, but a resolution to their question which relates closely to your own [versus what most larger traditional Christian assemblies believe] was not one of those things. The most important thing they received was, I believe, a stronger portion of charity/love as per I Corinthians 13:4-7. Read this verse from the same chapter:

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Do your studies on what you will and do talk about them with people willing to listen, but focus first on God's Kingdom and righteousness [Matt 6:33]. Focus on having the charity in your life that Paul's anointed describes in I Corinthians 13:4-7.

On your issue the most important thing should not be whether or not there is a being called satan, but how we are to deal with our adversaries without regard to their names or their make-up or their consistencies, etc. Medical science is not the best way. Jesus is the Way. Too many people who could and should trust in God FIRST are instead trusting in their Medical Doctors for a healing that those doctors quite often are unable to provide. The worst problems are beyond their means and the "good" doctors are the first to admit that.
 
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Stranger

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That's true pia.
The adversary as it relates to illness is the flesh nature. You only need to go back to the Law of Moses where all those skin conditions deemed a person unclean. Did you know the entire Law of Moses does not mention "once" the name Satan, Devil, or any other misunderstood name given. No warning - not one! We can comfortably conclude the OT is silent on a supernatural evil creature.

Satan is the most talked about angel in the Bible. From his very moment of creation to when he is thrown into the Lake of Fire. He is found from Genesis to Revelation, under many guises.

You, for some reason, you would like Satan to be laying and basking throughout the pages of the Old Testament, and New probably also, as a snake lays out on a limb over the river blending in with its surroundings so as to be unseen.

You are on a fools errand.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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face2face

You said in your post #80 that the adversary in Job is not Satan but a human. You give (Gal.5:19-21) as proof. Yet it proves nothing of what you are saying. Where did you come up with that?

You speak of the casting out of demons as being actually just natural diseases. Yet Scripture always makes distinction between the two. (Mark 1:34) "And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him."

You see. Many people did have natural diseases, of which Christ healed them. But many were demon possessed, and Christ cast them out. With many the disease itself was the result of Satanic or demonic influence as with the woman in (Lu.13:16).

The devil goes by many names. (Rev. 12:9) "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world...." Ah yes, there is Satan as the devil. Just as Satan in the book of Job is the devil. And there is Satan as the serpent. Just as he was the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

Stranger
 
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bbyrd009

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this is why satan is personified, see; because ppl need a scapegoat, and it does no good to rip the veil away before one is ready. If you go telling people that the only satan that is real is in themselves--which there is plenty of Scripture for--they will misunderstand and be even worse off.

Let ppl have the red guy with horns, if they want
 
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face2face

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Satan is the most talked about angel in the Bible. From his very moment of creation to when he is thrown into the Lake of Fire. He is found from Genesis to Revelation, under many guises.

You, for some reason, you would like Satan to be laying and basking throughout the pages of the Old Testament, and New probably also, as a snake lays out on a limb over the river blending in with its surroundings so as to be unseen.

You are on a fools errand.

Stranger

This is the "Because i said so approach" which seems to be standard here.
 

face2face

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face2face

You said in your post #80 that the adversary in Job is not Satan but a human. You give (Gal.5:19-21) as proof. Yet it proves nothing of what you are saying. Where did you come up with that?

Thats correct.
The works of the flesh are manifested by envy and jealousy.
Why would an evil supernatural being care about a mans wealth or standing before God?

You speak of the casting out of demons as being actually just natural diseases. Yet Scripture always makes distinction between the two. (Mark 1:34) "And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him."

I would like to thank you for this question because its the first of its kind in this thread which aims to highlight the difference between healing and casting out.

Am i right to suggest you infer the word devil to mean an evil creature of darkness possesed these people?

The meaning of "devil" (accuser; calumniator) - the following are referred to as a "devil" or "slanderer":
  1. Judas - John 6:70.
  2. Women - 1 Timothy 3:11 cf. Titus 2:3.
  3. Men - 2 Timothy 3:3.
  4. "Sin in the flesh" - Hebrews 2:14 cf. Hebrews 9:26 and Romans 5:21; 6:23 (to show that "devil" is synonymous with "sin") and then cf. Romans 7:17, 18.
I will let you look at those passages before commenting on Mark 1:34

What you do to the word satan is what you do to the word devil.

I am looking for your understing to show how the word accuser was used and applied to different contexts.

F2F
 

Stranger

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Thats correct.
The works of the flesh are manifested by envy and jealousy.
Why would an evil supernatural being care about a mans wealth or standing before God?



I would like to thank you for this question because its the first of its kind in this thread which aims to highlight the difference between healing and casting out.

Am i right to suggest you infer the word devil to mean an evil creature of darkness possesed these people?

The meaning of "devil" (accuser; calumniator) - the following are referred to as a "devil" or "slanderer":
  1. Judas - John 6:70.
  2. Women - 1 Timothy 3:11 cf. Titus 2:3.
  3. Men - 2 Timothy 3:3.
  4. "Sin in the flesh" - Hebrews 2:14 cf. Hebrews 9:26 and Romans 5:21; 6:23 (to show that "devil" is synonymous with "sin") and then cf. Romans 7:17, 18.
I will let you look at those passages before commenting on Mark 1:34

What you do to the word satan is what you do to the word devil.

I am looking for your understing to show how the word accuser was used and applied to different contexts.

F2F

See, this is some of your 'I said so approach'. (Gal. 5:19-21) says nothing and offers nothing about Job's adversary being human and not Satan. Your question of 'why' is immaterial. What is said is what is important. More of your 'I said so approach'. Better known as bs.

No, you don't thank me. You don't mean it and you know it. Quit playing your games. Scripture speaks of 'the' devil and devils. The devil is Satan. Satan has others devils who follow him. Some are angels and some are demons.

The devil is a great sinner,. But he is not simply sin. The devil has personality as an angelic being.

Why should you wait to comment on (Mark 1:34)? Scared? If so, say so. Don't hesitate, unless you don't know what your are talking about.

Stranger
 

face2face

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See, this is some of your 'I said so approach'. (Gal. 5:19-21) says nothing and offers nothing about Job's adversary being human and not Satan. Your question of 'why' is immaterial. What is said is what is important. More of your 'I said so approach'. Better known as bs.

No, you don't thank me. You don't mean it and you know it. Quit playing your games. Scripture speaks of 'the' devil and devils. The devil is Satan. Satan has others devils who follow him. Some are angels and some are demons.

The devil is a great sinner,. But he is not simply sin. The devil has personality as an angelic being.

Why should you wait to comment on (Mark 1:34)? Scared? If so, say so. Don't hesitate, unless you don't know what your are talking about.

Stranger

So without giving any ground:

- did you look at the devil quotes?
- do you understand how the word is used?

If you have read the thread you would see the thanks as sincere.

I am getting greater engagement from you than any other in this forum...let's see how long you will last.

Mark 1:34 is coming but first answer the questions.

F2F

Sent from phone.
 

Stranger

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So without giving any ground:

- did you look at the devil quotes?
- do you understand how the word is used?

If you have read the thread you would see the thanks as sincere.

I am getting greater engagement from you than any other in this forum...let's see how long you will last.

Mark 1:34 is coming but first answer the questions.

F2F

Sent from phone.

Yes, I looked at the quotes, which is why I said, the devil is not simply sin. He has personality as a spiritual being.

I care not for your thanks be they sincere or not, which I don't believe they are.

Ok. As soon as you can find or make up some sort of answer concerning (Mark 1:34), get back with me.

Why should I care if you sent this from a phone. Are you looking for a handicap?

Stranger
 

pia

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this is why satan is personified, see; because ppl need a scapegoat, and it does no good to rip the veil away before one is ready. If you go telling people that the only satan that is real is in themselves--which there is plenty of Scripture for--they will misunderstand and be even worse off.

Let ppl have the red guy with horns, if they want
Besides Jesus became the literal 'scapegoat'......Great study about how the Hebrews were able to do that part, with a real goat until Christ.....
 

face2face

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Yes, I looked at the quotes, which is why I said, the devil is not simply sin. He has personality as a spiritual being.

Okay, so your reply acknowledge the devil is synonymous for sin. That knowledge is useful. (tuck that away for later)

How do you prove the devil has a personality and is supernatural from the text?

I care not for your thanks be they sincere or not, which I don't believe they are.

No, I am thankful for your contribution so far, whether you accept it or not is your prerogative.

Ok. As soon as you can find or make up some sort of answer concerning (Mark 1:34), get back with me.

Why should I care if you sent this from a phone. Are you looking for a handicap?

Stranger

A prickly personality...and I'm not sincere hmmm.

F2F

Sent from Samsung Tablet ;)
 
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Stranger

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Okay, so your reply acknowledger’s the devil is synonymous for sin. That knowledge is useful. (tuck that away for later)

How do you prove the devil has a personality and is supernatural from the text?



No, I am thankful for your contribution so far, whether you accept it or not is your prerogative.



A prickly personality...and I'm not sincere hmmm.

F2F

Sent from Samsung Tablet ;)

No, I did not say the devil is synonymous with sin. I said the devil is not simply sin and that he has personality as a spirit being.

Satan has personality because he lusts, he murders, he speaks, he lies, he plots and deceives, he is judged. (Job 1:6-12) (John 8:44), (Rev. 12:9)

Stranger
 
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face2face

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See, this is some of your 'I said so approach'. (Gal. 5:19-21) says nothing and offers nothing about Job's adversary being human and not Satan. Your question of 'why' is immaterial. What is said is what is important. More of your 'I said so approach'. Better known as bs.

The "Why" was a struggle.

No, you don't thank me. You don't mean it and you know it. Quit playing your games.

Scripture speaks of 'the' devil and devils. The devil is Satan. Satan has others devils who follow him. Some are angels and some are demons.

The devil is a great sinner,. But he is not simply sin. The devil has personality as an angelic being.

That's a mouthful stranger!

Why should you wait to comment on (Mark 1:34)? Scared? If so, say so. Don't hesitate, unless you don't know what your are talking about.

Stranger

Well lets state some facts stranger!...facts are good, because apparently the "I said so approach" doesn’t like "why" questions. You may concede that 1000 pages of Old Testament Scripture has NO mention of demons? Now before you run off to check, you will see a few possible references, but these speak to false gods which most certainly do not exist.

Understandably you turn to the first chapter of Mark to a strange phenomenon which you infer is a person taken captive by an evil creature who is possessing a randomly chosen victim. You Stranger, don’t find it strange that these demons should have been so active and evident in the time of Jesus, and yet nowhere to be seen for long periods of time before and after?

An even mildly inquisitive believer would be inclined to ask why?

I am sensing you are not that ‘why’ kinda guy.

Another issue to address is the fact that the well know diseases mentioned in the gospels as being a demonic influence are curable today by medical experts none of whom believe in the existence of evil spirits.

Another fact realises Jesus never believed or taught anywhere in his ministry the existence of unclean spirits (demons) or how to avoid them, rather acknowledging the thinking of people would not be changed given the difficulty with superstition at the time. Jesus tacitly adopted commonly understood terminology without supporting or encouraging such ways of thinking.

Another fact is that disease’s and illnesses are healed alongside your supernatural demons. It's clear to all reading that the gospel provides us a plain matter-of-fact diagnosis of the physical and mental disabilities Jesus healed.

1. “A dumb man possessed with a devil, (Matthew 9: 32).
2. “One possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him” (Matthew 12: 22).
3. “(His friends said) He is beside himself. And the scribes said, He hath Baalzebub ... “ (Mark 3:21,22).
4. The demoniac was found “sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind” (Mark 5:15).
5. “Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is epileptic... and Jesus rebuked the devil...” (Matthew 17:15,18). People with epilepsy do not have devils!
6. “And they that were vexed with unclean spirits were healed” (Luke 6:18).
7. “A woman which had a spirit of infirmity... and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself” (Luke 13:11).
8. “He hath a devil, and is mad” (John 10:20; the same idea is implied in John 7:20 and John 8:48).

And there is Mark 1

Just then there was a man in their synagogue with an unclean spirit, and he cried out, Jesus the Nazarene! Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!” Jesus rebuked him: “Silence! Come out of him!” the news about him spread quickly throughout all the region around Galilee.

So he healed many who were sick with various diseases and drove out many demons. But he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him.

The word daimonion to the Greeks was first applied to gods generally and later to inferior gods. It was thought that these inferior gods, or demons, were the departed spirits of human beings. Good demons came from good men, and bad demons from bad men. Bad demons preyed upon humans, entering their bodies and causing certain maladies. Hence people with such ailments as madness, deafness and dumbness were described as being possessed with demons.

We have commented on the types of illnesses attributed to demons are clearly those which could not be related to an obvious physical condition.

Lameness was not attributed to demons because the abnormal condition of lame people’s limbs provided an explanation for their halting gait. But mad people, deaf people and dumb people looked like others there was no simple physiological explanation that they knew of and so demon possession was taught.

You see this in Matthew 9:28 and Matthew 9:32.

I believe, some reading this, will discern how Greek Mythology entered into the times of Jesus Christ ministry.

Cultural context applies here.

Are there ailments today which Christians automatically refer to as demon possession?

It equates to “sneezing and witchcraft”.

Strangers two letter acronym fits well here.

F2F
 
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face2face

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No, I did not say the devil is synonymous with sin. I said the devil is not simply sin and that he has personality as a spirit being.

Satan has personality because he lusts, he murders, he speaks, he lies, he plots and deceives, he is judged. (Job 1:6-12) (John 8:44), (Rev. 12:9)

Stranger
Quote 1. Well, we know the jury is out on Job. Human adversay most certainly
Quote 2. "Your Father The Devil” – “who sinneth from the beginning” 1 John 3:8...This is man! Romans 5:12
Quote 3. A symbolic dragon but of what? Daniel 7 will help!
 

face2face

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In relation to Mary Magdalene in Mark 15:41.
Its clear she was seriously ill right? Probably with a profound mental illness.
You don’t seriously believe she had "seven" supernatural evil spirits in her, do you? Luke 8:2.
You get why the number seven is given right?
F2F