Satan - who was he in the book of Job?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,775
635
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Your starting to ask questions I have already answered. Are you a different person or can you not keep up. See my remarks concerning (Deut. 32:16-17) and (1 Cor. 10:20)

Stranger

Ah back to your life line...dont worry Stranger its not going anywhere. Idolarty = no gods...we have determined that. And you didnt run with the Psalm quote???

Let's assume there are people reading these posts and those people actually want to know the true motives (not attributes of the flesh as you stated) of your superantural being.

Where would you go other than Job, which you're clearly avoiding.

Motive please.
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ah back to your life line...dont worry Stranger its not going anywhere. Idolarty = no gods...we have determined that. And you didnt run with the Psalm quote???

Let's assume there are people reading these posts and those people actually want to know the true motives (not attributes of the flesh as you stated) of your superantural being.

Where would you go other than Job, which you're clearly avoiding.

Motive please.

You're ignoring what was said about (Deut. 32:16-17) and (1 Cor. 10:20). Idolatry is idolatry. Demons are demons. The quote in Psalms is yours. If you have something to say, say on.

Go back to post #191 and you will find the rest of what you are asking. Reading comprehension.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,775
635
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Introducing a foreign story of a fallen angel involves the following assumptions:
  1. That the "sons of God" refers to angels. (terminology also used of human sons)
  2. That Satan was a "son of God". The passage only states that he "came among them", but not that he was himself a "son of God".
  3. That "a conference" took place in heaven from the following two references: "To present themselves before the LORD" (Job 1:6); "so Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD" (Job 2:7).
But note the following: Did the "conference" need not take place in heaven? When men came before God’s representatives on earth (e.g. the judges), they were said to be standing "before the LORD".

The following are two examples:

"Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days." (Deuteronomy 19:17).

". . . Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD who is with you in the judgment." (2 Chronicles 19:6).

To leave the presence of the Lord (Job 1:12) does not require Satan ("adversary" Job 1:6) to have had access to the dwelling place of God in heaven. Cain "went out from the presence of the LORD" (Genesis 4:16) and he certainly was not in heaven.

The adversary was well travelled on the earth: "going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." (Job 1:7). (Is walking the usual mode of locomotion for a mighty angel?)

If the story of a fallen angel is not evident in the book of Job or in fact the OT then your fanciful notions are valueless.

Do you have anything in addition to your claims?

BTW in your satan theology do you believe satan has direct unlimited access to God's dwelling place in Heaven?
 
Last edited:

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Introducing a foreign story of a fallen angel involves the following assumptions:
  1. That the "sons of God" refers to angels. (terminology also used of human sons)
  2. That Satan was a "son of God". The passage only states that he "came among them", but not that he was himself a "son of God".
  3. That "a conference" took place in heaven from the following two references: "To present themselves before the LORD" (Job 1:6); "so Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD" (Job 2:7).
But note the following: Did the "conference" need not take place in heaven? When men came before God’s representatives on earth (e.g. the judges), they were said to be standing "before the LORD".

The following are two examples:

"Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days." (Deuteronomy 19:17).

". . . Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD who is with you in the judgment." (2 Chronicles 19:6).

To leave the presence of the Lord (Job 1:12) does not require Satan ("adversary" Job 1:6) to have had access to the dwelling place of God in heaven. Cain "went out from the presence of the LORD" (Genesis 4:16) and he certainly was not in heaven.

The adversary was well travelled on the earth: "going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." (Job 1:7). (Is walking the usual mode of locomotion for a mighty angel?)

If the story of a fallen angel is not evident in the book of Job or in fact the OT then your fanciful notions are valueless.

Do you have anything in addition to your claims?

BTW in your satan theology do you believe satan has direct unlimited access to God's dwelling place in Heaven?

So, who am I talking to now? You seem totally disconnected from the original discussion and wanting to start another. Have it yall's way.

I already explained 'sons of God' to yall. Why bring it up again? Satan was a 'son of god' because he was a direct creation of God. The conference took place wherever God wanted it to. Satan had to appear. Where ever it was, the presence of the Lord was there. So?

Apparently walking up and down upon the earth was Satan's method. So?

Satan is found throughout the Bible, as I have said, from Genesis to Revelation. Not just Job. I have already showed you other places.

Satan has access still in the heavens because he constantly accuses the believers before God.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Are you talking about a creature literally devouring people at will?

The devil (false accuser) here is compared to a roaring lion but elsewhere in Scripture lion-like characteristics are ascribed to men, not angels. (e.g. Psalms 22:12, 13; Psalms 57:4; Proverbs 28:15.

Psalms 22:13 is the source of the quotation speaking of human lips devouring people...which also fits the context of Peter's epistle.

I.e. Spiritual opponents of the true Gospel message.

F2F
I wrote ' obviously NOT physically '.....It would be so helpful if people actually read what is written. I see a lot of mix up;s, yes yes myself too, but the one above got a little confusing, this one shouldn't have been lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,775
635
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
So, who am I talking to now? You seem totally disconnected from the original discussion and wanting to start another. Have it yall's way.

I already explained 'sons of God' to yall. Why bring it up again? Satan was a 'son of god' because he was a direct creation of God. The conference took place wherever God wanted it to. Satan had to appear. Where ever it was, the presence of the Lord was there. So?

Apparently walking up and down upon the earth was Satan's method. So?

Satan is found throughout the Bible, as I have said, from Genesis to Revelation. Not just Job. I have already showed you other places.

Satan has access still in the heavens because he constantly accuses the believers before God.

Stranger

I will give you time to prepare material that support's your fallen angel theology.

At present your arguments don't fit with the OT narrative.

Your fabricated story of fallen angels wanting to rule on the earth and coveting God’s relationship has nothing to do with the kingdoms of men and God’s rule over them.

Your many inferences:

- Sons of God are angels

- Evil having access to God’s Throne room

- Wood & stone carvings possessed by evil spirits

- Idolatry to mean supernatural activity

- Fallen angel wanting to rule the earth


A more likely scenario:


- Sons of God are human sons Deuteronomy 14:1; Psalms 82:6 Hosea 1:10, Luke 3:38; John 1:12; 1 John 3:1.

- Evil cannot stand before God Psalms 5:4, 5 Habakkuk 1:13 Matthew 6:10

- Wood & stone carvings are no gods merely made by human hands Jeremiah 3:23 (vain and falsehood in worshipping no gods)

- Idolatry is the worship of falsehood – Jeremiah 2:5

- Angels cannot sin – ministering spirits who do God's will Hebrews 1:14 (note the word “all”)


Scripture presents idolatry as absurd and irrational, offensive to God and a source of spiritual and moral danger.

All idolatry is “man-made” and has no substance to it at all…that’s why it's absurd!

Only God can send fire from Heaven!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,775
635
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I wrote ' obviously NOT physically '.....It would be so helpful if people actually read what is written. I see a lot of mix up;s, yes yes myself too, but the one above got a little confusing, this one shouldn't have been lol

But you inferred evil spirits (devils) devouring people which was taking the verse out of context i.e Psalm 22:13.
James has humans in mind...just need to check in that you got that.
F2F
 

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
But you inferred evil spirits (devils) devouring people which was taking the verse out of context i.e Psalm 22:13.
James has humans in mind...just need to check in that you got that.
F2F
No that is not quite what I meant either. Never mind...
 

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But you inferred evil spirits (devils) devouring people which was taking the verse out of context i.e Psalm 22:13.
James has humans in mind...just need to check in that you got that.
F2F

No, she inferred Satan going about seeking to destroy the believers. (1 Peter 5:8) "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

And, lest you forgot that Satan is the devil, see again (Rev. 12:9)

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen and pia

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I will give you time to prepare material that support's your fallen angel theology.

At present your arguments don't fit with the OT narrative.

Your fabricated story of fallen angels wanting to rule on the earth and coveting God’s relationship has nothing to do with the kingdoms of men and God’s rule over them.

Your many inferences:

- Sons of God are angels

- Evil having access to God’s Throne room

- Wood & stone carvings possessed by evil spirits

- Idolatry to mean supernatural activity

- Fallen angel wanting to rule the earth


A more likely scenario:


- Sons of God are human sons Deuteronomy 14:1; Psalms 82:6 Hosea 1:10, Luke 3:38; John 1:12; 1 John 3:1.

- Evil cannot stand before God Psalms 5:4, 5 Habakkuk 1:13 Matthew 6:10

- Wood & stone carvings are no gods merely made by human hands Jeremiah 3:23 (vain and falsehood in worshipping no gods)

- Idolatry is the worship of falsehood – Jeremiah 2:5

- Angels cannot sin – ministering spirits who do God's will Hebrews 1:14 (note the word “all”)


Scripture presents idolatry as absurd and irrational, offensive to God and a source of spiritual and moral danger.

All idolatry is “man-made” and has no substance to it at all…that’s why it's absurd!

Only God can send fire from Heaven!

My arguments fit perfectly with the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. Which is why you haven't proved anything of your argument that Satan in the book of Job was a human.

I have already shown you that the term 'sons of God' speaks to an original creation of God. It speaks to the angels because the angels are each created by God. They do not pro-create. And the 'sons of God' were present when God laid the foundations of the earth. (Job 38:7) Adam is the only man who can be called a 'son of God' in the Old Testament as he was a direct creation also. In the New Testament we who are born-again are also 'sons of God' because each of us is a newly created being in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:17) "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

So it is proven that Satan is a 'son of God' and angel. And it has been proven that he is in opposition to God. (Rev. 12:9) And that he is that serpent in the Garden. (Gen.3:1), (Rev. 12:9) And that he will be judged by God and cast into the Lake of Fire. (Rev. 12:10) That he is a fallen angel is clearly seen by his opposition to God and believers.

And of course we all know why he fell. It was through pride. Which is clearly shown us in (1 Tim. 3:6) "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

None of the verses you give for 'sons of God' apply except those in the New Testament. And I have explained why.

As far as evil standing before God, it won't. He is in the process of judging it and will eventually remove it. But at present evil is all over the place. It is in the heavens just like the earth. Which is why He will destroy the old heavens and earth and create a new one. (Rev. 21:1) And during this time the enemy Satan has access to heaven to accuse the believers which he does day and night. (Rev. 12:10)

I have already answered your comments on idols. Go back and reread.

Angels did and do sin as I showed above. But this is also declared in (1 Tim. 5:21) "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things..." As there are elect people who are saved, there are non-elect who are not. As there are elect angels who are with God, there are non-elect who oppose God.

Stranger
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
No, she inferred Satan going about seeking to destroy the believers. (1 Peter 5:8) "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

And, lest you forgot that Satan is the devil, see again (Rev. 12:9)
so then a spirit, "satan," is personified for us, but you are free to understand that satan is still just a spirit, a manifestation; or not. In the same way that "heaven" becomes a place by a too-literal reading--when it is right beside you, right now--"satan" is made into an individual persona
 

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
@face2face Hello again......I would just like to ask, that when Adam and Eve were in the Garden....If the tempter had been a man, how would he have gotten into a snake and made that snake speak....Also weren't Adam and Eve supposed to be the only 'men' ( mankind ) at that time, so if it was a man, where did he come from ?
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,775
635
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
My arguments fit perfectly with the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. Which is why you haven't proved anything of your argument that Satan in the book of Job was a human.

We have proven the adversary (Satan) to be human and divine but no evidence in this thread of an abhorrent evil being inferred.

I have already shown you that the term 'sons of God' speaks to an original creation of God. It speaks to the angels because the angels are each created by God. They do not pro-create. And the 'sons of God' were present when God laid the foundations of the earth. (Job 38:7)

Your Job 38:7 reference is correctly identified as angles however the setting up of Job as the wealthiest men in the east and worshippers (sons of God) presenting themselves before the Lord has Job in view and the adversary who is envious at his standing in the community. Stronger context for human Sons and human adversary.

Adam is the only man who can be called a 'son of God' in the Old Testament as he was a direct creation also. In the New Testament we who are born-again are also 'sons of God' because each of us is a newly created being in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:17) "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Genesis 6:2 where “Sons of God” is used of Seth’s human offspring intermarrying with unbelievers is further supported by the Targums and the Rabbinic literature are unanimous in viewing the 'sons of God' as human beings.

The rest of your comments regarding being’s created anew has nothing to do with the classification which God give as “Sons”…Adam, Seth’s lineage, Children of Israel, all are called Sons of God.

Not hard.

So it is proven that Satan is a 'son of God' and angel. And it has been proven that he is in opposition to God. (Rev. 12:9) And that he is that serpent in the Garden. (Gen.3:1), (Rev. 12:9) And that he will be judged by God and cast into the Lake of Fire. (Rev. 12:10) That he is a fallen angel is clearly seen by his opposition to God and believers.

This type of jumping from one book, chapter and verse to another makes gross assumptions especially if you have clearly understood the context.

For example:
  • No super evil being mentioned in Gen 3
  • No super evil being mentioned in Job 1-2
  • No super evil being mentioned in Rev 12
Lesson: You cannot take a Bible narrative and twist it into some fanciful story without having that implied narrative somewhere detailed in the Bible…preferably near the beginning and not at the end.

Further to this...

The Job narrative has the adversary in opposition to Job, not God…don’t you remember them having an amicable discussion about Job….which again supports the human worshippers of God among whom one is jealous at Jobs position before the Lord.


And of course we all know why he fell. It was through pride. Which is clearly shown us in (1 Tim. 3:6) "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

We all know do we?….and where is this account?

1 Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert or he may become arrogant and fall into the punishment that the devil will exact. those outside the faith, so that he may not fall into disgrace and be caught by the devil’s trap.

Boy you make it hard! This is speaking about overseers and deacons who should not be exalted to places of authority too young else they may not handle the responsibility and become prideful. Such a one can easily fall into an accusers trap (human).

But at present evil is all over the place. It is in the heavens just like the earth.

“Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven”

God’s will is done in Heaven already - that's the whole point of God's unquestionable Holiness.

If your reward is “angelic nature” and you believe that promised spirit nature can sin…(wow) you have some mighty issues/hurdles to overcome.

Remember its flesh nature which is the sole source of sin - the Spirit is only pure and holy. James 1:13-15; Mark 7:20-23 cf. Jeremiah 17:9.

F2F
 
Last edited:

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,775
635
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
@face2face Hello again......I would just like to ask, that when Adam and Eve were in the Garden....If the tempter had been a man, how would he have gotten into a snake and made that snake speak....Also weren't Adam and Eve supposed to be the only 'men' ( mankind ) at that time, so if it was a man, where did he come from ?

How do you understand this Scripture?

3:1 Now the serpent was more shrewd than any of the wild animals that the Lord God had made.

What facts can you take from these words?

F2F
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,775
635
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
No, she inferred Satan going about seeking to destroy the believers. (1 Peter 5:8) "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

And, lest you forgot that Satan is the devil, see again (Rev. 12:9)

Stranger

Another passage you have taken out of context...at this rate you may well write your own Bible.
 

pia

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2009
2,003
1,678
113
70
West Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
How do you understand this Scripture?

3:1 Now the serpent was more shrewd than any of the wild animals that the Lord God had made.

What facts can you take from these words?

F2F
Only by the subsequent mentions of a tempter, an accuser, an adversary and so on.
May I ask? How do you understand it ? What was speaking through the snake ?
 

face2face

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2015
4,775
635
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Only by the subsequent mentions of a tempter, an accuser, an adversary and so on.
May I ask? How do you understand it ? What was speaking through the snake ?

The snake (or serpent - who knows what it was ????)...Just as Paul confirms in 2 Corinthians 11:3 nothing more, nothing less. The animal mind was given voice...isn't that the whole premise of Paul's arguments in Romans 5-8?

There is a much bigger simpler picture which those hardcore satan believers cannot see.
 
Last edited:

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We have proven the adversary (Satan) to be human and divine but no evidence in this thread of an abhorrent evil being inferred.



Your Job 38:7 reference is correctly identified as angles however the setting up of Job as the wealthiest men in the east and worshippers (sons of God) presenting themselves before the Lord has Job in view and the adversary who is envious at his standing in the community. Stronger context for human Sons and human adversary.



Genesis 6:2 where “Sons of God” is used of Seth’s human offspring intermarrying with unbelievers is further supported by the Targums and the Rabbinic literature are unanimous in viewing the 'sons of God' as human beings.

The rest of your comments regarding being’s created anew has nothing to do with the classification which God give as “Sons”…Adam, Seth’s lineage, Children of Israel, all are called Sons of God.

Not hard.



This type of jumping from one book, chapter and verse to another makes gross assumptions especially if you have clearly understood the context.

For example:
  • No super evil being mentioned in Gen 3
  • No super evil being mentioned in Job 1-2
  • No super evil being mentioned in Rev 12
Lesson: You cannot take a Bible narrative and twist it into some fanciful story without having that implied narrative somewhere detailed in the Bible…preferably near the beginning and not at the end.

Further to this...

The Job narrative has the adversary in opposition to Job, not God…don’t you remember them having an amicable discussion about Job….which again supports the human worshippers of God among whom one is jealous at Jobs position before the Lord.




We all know do we?….and where is this account?

1 Timothy 3:6 He must not be a recent convert or he may become arrogant and fall into the punishment that the devil will exact. those outside the faith, so that he may not fall into disgrace and be caught by the devil’s trap.

Boy you make it hard! This is speaking about overseers and deacons who should not be exalted to places of authority too young else they may not handle the responsibility and become prideful. Such a one can easily fall into an accusers trap (human).



“Thy will be done on earth, as it is in Heaven”

God’s will is done in Heaven already - that's the whole point of God's unquestionable Holiness.

If your reward is “angelic nature” and you believe that promised spirit nature can sin…(wow) you have some mighty issues/hurdles to overcome.

Remember its flesh nature which is the sole source of sin - the Spirit is only pure and holy. James 1:13-15; Mark 7:20-23 cf. Jeremiah 17:9.

F2F

No, you haven't proven anything.

Yes, I know (Job 38) the term 'sons of God' speaks to angels. Just like in (Job 1) the term 'sons of God' speaks to angels. Just like in (Gen. 6) the term 'sons of God' speaks to angels. Nothing wrong with the context.

You gave me some New Testament verses that supposedly proved that the term 'sons of God' did refer to humans. I showed you in Scripture how the term only spoke to direct creations of God. Now you say that doesn't have anything to do with the term 'sons of God'. Oh? Just because you say so means nothing. In other words, you have nothing.

I see, you would rather me not use Scripture in other books of the Bible. I should just listen to you and the verses you show me. Sure. In other words, you admit Scripture is against what you are saying. You have nothing. Nothing you have given supports your claim that Satan in the book of Job is a human adversary.

No, Scripture is making it hard on you. Scripture is showing that you don't know what you are talking about. Or, that you know what your are talking about and are purposely trying to twist and pervert the Scripture. I think both are true.

(1 Tim. 3:6) "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." Pride is the sin of the devil. This is why the leaders of the church are told to not elevate a novice, lest the novice be affected the same way. It is not hard at all.

I just showed you why Satan fell. It was through pride. (1 Tim.3:6). Again, it is not me that is making it hard on you. It is Scripture. You just don't want to believe it.

As far as God's will being done in heaven already, His will is being done on the earth already as well. But at this time His will is in conflict with another will, Satans, and fallen man. When His kingdom is set up on earth, then His 'will' will be the only will allowed. God will later have to destroy heaven and earth and make a new heaven and earth. Which I already told you is due to Satans sin. (Rev. 21:1)

Yes, you talk a lot. But Scripture speaks louder.

Stranger