Islam and Christianity; truth?

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ps77

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First, I'd like to say that I have spent hours and hours, days even researching, reading, listening, absorbing various viewpoints. Now, I've read much of the bible. I've grown up in Christianity. I was that little kid in sunday school who raised his hand for every question, knew all the stories, got stickers on the wall going off of the points sheet. That kid grew up a little, and in junior high, grade 8, I started to try and figure out what it is that I believed and why. I'm still on that journey. I'm always going to be on that journey. But I've hit a rough spot, a serious rough spot, so hear me out, listen to what I say, and give me your perpectives minus any tension, frustration, anger, insults etc that you may be tempted to give me. Bear with me here.
Jag]The best way to know false doctrine is to read the bible yourself and God as a teacher said:
Okay, so, you're saying this as a Christian (actually, for some reason I think you are a Messianic Jew, am I wrong? I heard that somewhere on these forums I think). But Ricky would say the same thing about the Quran. Coming from a Muslim perspective.I understand that Christ is different from any other religious leader or anyone claiming to be of God. I understand that the Bible portrays that.But I'm in a period of doubt here. Hear me out.What makes either perspective the truth. How do we know?Is it by faith?Then, faith has to be well grounded at a certain point.The bible, I've seen it has many contradictions, or things that have different interpretations. It does. They aren't huge contradictions, but it does.So it can't be inerrant.It came from God?Okay, but, through man. What have we done to it.But God can protect his word.If he was to protect his word, would he not protect it to the point where those contradictions do not exist?
Christianity is a reality, not a religion.
Christianity is a religion.It is.You could have said Christ is a reality.That makes more sense. I know what you're saying though.
I would suggest that you filter the noise of false teachings and open His Word....hear and see the quiet truth as told by God Himself!
That is exactly what I am striving to accomplish.
whirlwind]Another suggestion....grow up! This la said:
I have' date=' thank you very much, I have spent much time reading the Bible.Although, I haven't read the Catholic bible much. A few verses of the Maccabees maybe.I actually didn't come across it until last year. About the other books, and the council of Nicea.
whirlwind' said:
Again, I don't give a rat's patootie about Catholic or Protestant. I don't study their doctrine and I don't worship in their churches and I certainly don't listen to their teachings or teachers
Oh, excuse me then.So, tell me, where does a good Christian like yourself fellowship with the other believers, and, might I ask what exactly are you? Do you attend a Multi-denominational church, a non-denominational church.. are you Mormon or something?
whirlwind]I look at the ridiculous clowns on television and wonder why a bolt of lightening doesn said:
Well' date=' thats a good Christ-like attitude if I ever saw one myself.I agree, they're pretty much rediculous clowns, but hey, I've never really wished a lightning bolt on anyone before. Even the hardcore atheists I used to debate with.Good to see you're lighting the world with the goodness of God, and the attitude of Christ. It's really good to see a fellow believer being a light in darkness.
whirlwind' said:
Again, such wise instructions from so knowledgeable a person. My, my! If you want to waste your time read the Koran instead of the Bible, learn all about other religions and not God's Word and then one day you can face our Father and tell Him all about what you learned. I'm sure He will be really, really interested.
Well, your reading agenda is up to you, I was just saying, reading about other religions and still being a Christian, that's a solid witness to the heathens. (In any case, it works well with respect issues in debates and questioning.)And.. it's actually the Quran. A "q" and a "u".
whirlwind]That is because you are listening to junk. You are listening to man...not God.[/quote]I said:
Make some wise decisions.
That's what I'm trying to do.
thunder1 said:
I was not brought up on any 'belief system'. Now I could choose to be a muslim' date=' hindu, buddhist, christian, atheist. We've got mosques, hindu and buddhist temples, churches very close to us. I've studied myself. And I am a Christian and that's the only truth. Believing Jesus Christ as your Saviour, because everybody sins and we need somebody to deliver from our sins. Muhammed could not do it and he is dead and he was a sinner himself, buddha could not deliver me from sins , he is dead, was only a man and a sinner himself , hindus got lots of gods just in case. Even satan believes that there is only one true living God , why do you think people are so blind to see the truth, satan tries to do everything to deceive people to see the truth.You can be a kind person, but that does not make you sinless. We all are sinners. I just like to ask, have you committed any sin, you don't have to tell me, but just think about it ,your thoughts, actions... If you are separarted from true living God ,you are a sinner. Jesus was the only sinless one, only one who was God's son, only one who sacrificed His life to save us from eternal hell. Only one who was there from the beginning, only one who rose from the death and still lives in us through the Holy spirit. There is only ONE TRUE LIVING GOD. Christianity is not religion to me , it's a personal relationship with my awesome God. I can pray anytime, anywhere. I don't have to follow rituals. I'm saved by grace. I was blind, but now I can see.Muslim, hindu, or buddhist 'gods' are not a true living God . AND THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE LIVING GOD. That's the Heavenly Father of Jesus Christ, our Saviour.God Bless,Thunder1[/quote']Thank you for your response.I have to say, it was really good. I realize yes, that we are all sinners. All have fallen short from the glory of God. I know it well.That's not what I'm doubting here.I mean, I find myself on the opposite side of the debate table than I was 5 years ago when I started. I've been a Christian for close to 14 years. I've been questioning for close to 5 or 6. What do you think about eternal hell?Is it eternal suffering, or eternal darkness (death; absence of God).Do you only suffer according to your sins (option 2), or does everyone suffer the same (option 1)What about people who convert to other religions. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Ba'Hais, Rastafarians... do they not believe their religion is truth. They have reasons for converting to their religions.If I was brought up in a Muslim country, in a Muslim family, I would believe the Muslim faith. I just happened to be brought up in a Christian country (well, kinda), a Christian family, and I ended up believing the Christian faith.In scenario numero uno, if I were to convert from Islam to Christianity. I would've been met with considerable resistance. My family would not be cool with it.I mean, my question is how do we know who's right?Who does all the evidence point to.
Wow, whirlwind, that post seems to be filled with nothing but anger and insults. I don't see how anyone could see your post as being in any way helpful to someone who is waivering or questioning their faith.
It really didn't help.Sorry Whirlwind, it really didn't.
 

whirlwind

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(Squeak;32852)
Wow, whirlwind, that post seems to be filled with nothing but anger and insults. I don't see how anyone could see your post as being in any way helpful to someone who is waivering or questioning their faith.
It is filled with anger Squeak...anger at false teaching leading souls from God. There are times to pacify someone, there are times to teach and then...there are times to tell it like it is. Being faced with Islam is that time! Being faced with new age mumbo-jumbo is that time!If we are as close as I believe we are to the end of days I would be remiss to not correct misconceptions. They will lead someone away from the One True God....the God that offers them salvation. There are NO OTHERS.
1 Corinthians 13 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
There are times you "love" someone enough to get serious, as you would with a child. If you saw your daughter picking up a rattlesnake would you say, Oh, you know how much I love you and want the very best for you and would never wish to say an unkind word but you really should put that snake down because it may hurt you??? These people fiddling around with Islam, etc. are picking up the biggest serpent in the world and they are completely oblivious to it.
WW - "Oh please....don't give me that tripe. If you spent anytime at all in His Word you would see His hand....you would know the Author. Again, I don't give a rat's patootie about Catholic or Protestant. I don't study their doctrine and I don't worship in their churches and I certainly don't listen to their teachings or teachers. I look at the ridiculous clowns on television and wonder why a bolt of lightening doesn't come through their mega-church roofs and strike them dead. His letter was written to us for us to read. The more you read the more understanding is opened by Him to you. You must work for that and apparently you haven't been." Squeak - Boy a Catholic or Protestant or television evangelist would certainly turn and run from this forum if they read this post. You seem to be doing all of the judging yourself instead of leaving it to God to decide who his true followers are. Condemning entire religions affiliations is a very strong statement to make and thank goodness you aren't the one in control, God is!
Squeak....they are promoting the rapture lie which will send them where they don't want to go. Are you going to stand by and allow that? They have their hands stuck in the pockets of innocent Christians. Are you going to sanction that? Do you believe God wants us to stand idly by and allow this?
WW - "Again, such wise instructions from so knowledgeable a person. My, my! If you want to waste your time read the Koran instead of the Bible, learn all about other religions and not God's Word and then one day you can face our Father and tell Him all about what you learned. I'm sure He will be really, really interested."Squeak - Actually, I think it is important to have knowledge of what other religions/Christians believe in order to refute it and help them (unbelievers/followers of other religions) come to know the true God and his word through reasoning from the Bible. How can you convert someone from being Muslim, Buddist, or following man made doctrines etc unless you have some knowledge of what they believe? Just cramming Bible passages down their throats doesn't work.
Then study it. Spend your time learning all about it. Reason with them.
WW - "You oh so wise person...are you 15 or 16 yet or perhaps even in college where the professors have been working on you. Either way....get over yourself because you know nothing of the truth unless it is in His Word!"Squeak - Again....rude and insulting. If you think anyone should take you seriously speaking in such rude and insulting ways, you are sadly mistaken. I am new to this forum also, and I will likely get a tongue lashing from you and possibly others as well, but I don't care. No, I haven't been here for a long time, and possibly you have been, that doesn't mean that only your opinion matters. If I was on the verge of joining this forum today to have fellowship and discussions with other Christians and other religions from all walks of life, I certainly would not have done so if yours was the first post I read.
It was rude and I apologize for the tone but not for what was said.
Remember..... Galatians 5:22-23 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control.Squeak
I will but you should also remember - Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,10.The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.So....you try to love them with gentleness and I'll try to love them with God's Word...maybe we will succeed in keeping them from taking the mark....Whirlwind
 

ps77

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And you know this why? God is not a man that he would lie about himself or change that truth to suit mankind. God is real not a manmade commodity.God does not work through buddist no more than he worked through those who worshipped Baal and Asherah. Do yourself a favour if your going to talk about God of any faith, get your facts right about the true and only God who ever made a difference the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.We Know God made everything but only the God of Abraham has been spot on about his people and the things that will happen. So leaves very little in terms to believe of any other faith.
I didn't say anything towards any other God.I meant that so many areas of Christianity try to invent what God is to them.I mean, televangelists and their "prosperity gospel", fundamentalists vs. liberal christianity, christian universalism, there's loads of different beliefs within Christianity.
Do you not believe Christ was perfect in his faith and everything about God speaking as true in the way he lived and cared for others? Christ got his faith perfect so we would be wrong to assume what you have written.
I wasn't talking about Christ.I was talking about Christianity.
You are not born a christian like you can be a Jew. For someone so indoctrinated you know very little about the Christian God and his teachings.
I never said you were born a Christian. I was born into a Christian home though.You'd be surprised, I think.
How do you follow a creator you don't know? Never heard such a load of codswallop in all my life. I do not mean to offend you but you should try finding out who God is and what he wants before supposing to know and teach others?
yes, and actually, that's where I'm finding my troubles.I've followed God as I've always known him.But I'm in a period of doubt, questioning a lot of things, and that leads me to question my perception of God. Well, you know what I mean.I do have a problem believing in the God that seems to toy with his creation as if we are but an ant-farm, as seen in Job. It's made out to be Satan coming to God saying "hey, Job's really something, but he wouldn't hold you in such high regard if you hadn't have give him so much" I believe the actual wording is "planted a hedge around.." but I digress, and then God says "oh yeah, try it. everything he has is yours to do what you like with, just don't kill the guy."So it's like this huge cosmic bet.
Protestants do not judge if inspired they simply have good reason for not including them and you should study before repeating things others tell you.
I have studied. You should know from my posts that I am not the type of person to hear something and just accept it. I need to figure it out for myself. Experience it myself.Maybe I'm too much like Thomas. Doubting Thomas. If Jesus didn't show up in the room, how might things be different for him?
Mahomet was not inspired by God because he teaches opposite to the truth that God taught through his prophets and moses to the Israelites and the covenants. Do try to study why people are called false prophets.
I really don't know who Mahomet is, sorry.Actually, I have studied the prophets, and I know what a false prophet is, thanks.I'm not talking from a Christian perspective on that though.Oh yeah, and it's Mohammed. Do try to comprehend the benefits of correct spelling, or, at least the ability to copy something down right.
tongue.gif
Paul spoke in line with Gods prophets and Mahomet did not. Hence guess why Mahomet is false?
Again with Mahomet. Who is this guy?Mohammed was actually not even mentioned in the Bible.But if you take him from the perspective of the religion he belongs to, he's a pretty decent guy, who's pretty darn in line with God.
It is the book of revelation they are not to take away anything from or add. Do read it in chapter 22.
I know what the Book of Revelation is thanks. It was actually my favorite book of the bible for a long time.It was John who wrote it. John's revelation. He was given this revelation from God, while on the Island of Patmos, I believe. He was an elderly man when he wrote this.
That is why you need to know the presence of Gods Spirit the anointing which teaches a man all truth. 1 John 2:27.
Too bad it's just not that easy. Maybe it is for you, and in that case, I envy you.But in a good way. Envying isn't the greatest thing to be doing.You should be happy for what you have really..
You definately missed out on an awful lot.
An awful lot of what exactly?
Should of gone to specsavers you get two pair of glasses for £75.00at least you could not blame your eyesight for your spiritual blindness.
Well, aren't you full of wit now.That's just marvelous.
 

ps77

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It is filled with anger Squeak...anger at false teaching leading souls from God. There are times to pacify someone, there are times to teach and then...there are times to tell it like it is. Being faced with Islam is that time! Being faced with new age mumbo-jumbo is that time!If we are as close as I believe we are to the end of days I would be remiss to not correct misconceptions. They will lead someone away from the One True God....the God that offers them salvation. There are NO OTHERS.
Yes, great, be angry. You are justified in your anger, but remember that verse regarding anger; be angry, and sin not.So, please, present your case in a more respectable manner. It's more effective that way.
If you saw your daughter picking up a rattlesnake would you say, Oh, you know how much I love you and want the very best for you and would never wish to say an unkind word but you really should put that snake down because it may hurt you??? These people fiddling around with Islam, etc. are picking up the biggest serpent in the world and they are completely oblivious to it.
Yes, but, would you take the snake, then get angry at your daughter, insulting her for her stupidity, and make rude comments? No, you get the child out of danger, and then kindly and gently instruct her that picking up the rattlesnake wasn't the safe thing to do.It's not that hard, you don't have to be rude.
Squeak....they are promoting the rapture lie which will send them where they don't want to go. Are you going to stand by and allow that? They have their hands stuck in the pockets of innocent Christians. Are you going to sanction that? Do you believe God wants us to stand idly by and allow this?
Not to say we can't decide to rebuke something that is wrong, clearly, but do you know that not even the angel Michael condemned Satan. (I believe in the book of Jude). He basically said, May God be your judge. Leaving the judgement to God.
So....you try to love them with gentleness and I'll try to love them with God's Word...maybe we will succeed in keeping them from taking the mark.
There is a way to present God's word while still being gentle at the same time, you know.(This is part two of my post, part one is directly above)
 

whirlwind

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ps77;32867]But I said:
What contradictions do you see? His word is inerrant and if there is some complication in understanding you must dig deeper. We are the problem not His Word.
But God can protect his word.If he was to protect his word, would he not protect it to the point where those contradictions do not exist?
The more understanding I have been given the fewer contradictions I have found. It truly is a matter of understanding. He does not lie.
Christianity is a religion.It is.You could have said Christ is a reality.That makes more sense. I know what you're saying though.
I disagree. To me it is simply a way of life. A way of Him living in you. Religion, to me, are all the denominations which are nothing more than divisions.....I believe this, you believe that, etc. ,etc. There is One God, there is One Book and we are one body of Christ.
Grow up?I'm in the process. Don't hurry me though, please. I like being 17-nearly-18. It's a good solid age.As for religion, I do not intend to drift from religion to religion. I do not intend to follow religion either way. Because by doing that, you are following man. I do not intend to follow man. I can learn from man, but I do not intend to follow man.Jesus was a man. (not taking any stabs at his divinity, just a comment)
That was a rude comment....I'm sorry. I'm glad you don't intend to drift around...please stay in His Word. You are wise to not follow man....you can learn from them but always, always, test what anyone says in the Bible. Don't allow them to twist the meaning."Jesus was a man" like no others. He was the perfect man and He came in the flesh to show us how it could be done. He is our example.
I have, thank you very much, I have spent much time reading the Bible.Although, I haven't read the Catholic bible much. A few verses of the Maccabees maybe.I actually didn't come across it until last year. About the other books, and the council of Nicea.
I don't understand the Catholic Bible but there is so much involved in their religion that is against the Word of God that it doesn't interest me. I am glad you spend time in the Bible and would recommend the King James.
Oh, excuse me then.So, tell me, where does a good Christian like yourself fellowship with the other believers, and, might I ask what exactly are you? Do you attend a Multi-denominational church, a non-denominational church.. are you Mormon or something?
If I attended church it would be non-denominational. The fellowship I have with other believers is only through forums such as this. Not because of choice but when I attended churches there was so little of God's Word being taught that I truly found it to be a waste of time. Where you are very young I am old....I was awakened about three years ago to His Word and I don't have time to waste in learning all I can.
Well, thats a good Christ-like attitude if I ever saw one myself.I agree, they're pretty much rediculous clowns, but hey, I've never really wished a lightning bolt on anyone before. Even the hardcore atheists I used to debate with.Good to see you're lighting the world with the goodness of God, and the attitude of Christ. It's really good to see a fellow believer being a light in darkness.
Ouch....well, I deserved that one. Sorry but I just hate to see good people being misled.
Well, your reading agenda is up to you, I was just saying, reading about other religions and still being a Christian, that's a solid witness to the heathens. (In any case, it works well with respect issues in debates and questioning.)And.. it's actually the Quran. A "q" and a "u".
I know...I've seen it spelled both ways.
I've always had a problem trying to figure out the voice of God.I've never understood it, honestly.I've heard the inner voice inside yourself, but how do you tell if it's God, Satan (well, I mean, sometimes that's pretty darn obvious) or just yourself.It's difficult. I've never conquered it.
I have never "heard" it either but He will lead you. With me there are small signs that let me know He is there. Talk to Him all the time, tell Him you love Him and want to understand. Ask Him to lead, guide and direct your life.....He will answer.
You have to see, I understand the Christian perspective.I could've answered my own questions with Sunday-school answers if I wanted to.I'm looking for deeper than that.What makes you so sure. I know it's there, in the Bible.But you can't tell me you've never questioned anything in regards to that.Never doubted.I'm not coming to you guys professing to be greater or superior in religious knowledge or spirituality or anything. I'm here because I need help. I'm here because I'm looking for answers to questions that I can't really answer from the Bible.
I certainly don't have all the answers but I know some of the deeper truths and those truths let you KNOW His Word is divinely inspired. There is no doubt.
So, don't act all offended or stick up your nose as if I'm some arrogant heathen.Don't turn up your nose to those who are in need of direction.Seriously, you'll lose them for sure.
I was angry that you were equating Islam anywhere in the vicinity of God. My nose isn't turned up but my ire was.
What do you think about eternal hell?Is it eternal suffering, or eternal darkness (death; absence of God).Do you only suffer according to your sins (option 2), or does everyone suffer the same (option 1)
There is not an "eternal hell." There is no "eternal suffering or darkness." If a soul fails the last test, which is at the end of the millennium, they are thrown in the lake of fire. The expression, "smoke goes up forever and ever" is simply a Hebraism and means they are gone...just as smoke is gone.There are different sins. The sin of murder or rape can't be forgiven in this flesh life. They must go before God for Him to judge. Other sins can be forgiven through true repentence. There is however one "unforgiveable sin" which only one of God's elect can commit and only at the end of this age. The suffering souls do is to be away from our Father. They will all be taught during the millennium.
What about people who convert to other religions. Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Ba'Hais, Rastafarians... do they not believe their religion is truth. They have reasons for converting to their religions.
They do believe it is true but it is not. You must believe in the Son. At the end of this age the elect of God will be taken before Satan for a testimony. During that time the Holy Spirit will speak through them and many, many will accept Christ then....if not, they will experience the wrath of God and will have to be taught during the millennium. [Mark 13:11]
If I was brought up in a Muslim country, in a Muslim family, I would believe the Muslim faith. I just happened to be brought up in a Christian country (well, kinda), a Christian family, and I ended up believing the Christian faith.In scenario numero uno, if I were to convert from Islam to Christianity. I would've been met with considerable resistance. My family would not be cool with it.
God places souls in certain bodies. There is a reason (understanding that is one of the deeper truths). It is his wish that all come to repentence. All are now given a chance and if that fails will again be tested at the end of the 1,000 years when they will be taught without the influence of Satan.
I mean, my question is how do we know who's right?Who does all the evidence point to.It really didn't help.Sorry Whirlwind, it really didn't.
When you study, when you ask for His understanding, when He sees you working....you will receive the evidence. There are so many wonderous touches of His hand throughout the Bible that there is no question.Again...I'm sorry I lost my temper. If you have any questions please ask them and if at all possible I will answer. Please stay with His Word. :bible:.........Whirlwind
 

ps77

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What contradictions do you see? His word is inerrant and if there is some complication in understanding you must dig deeper. We are the problem not His Word.The more understanding I have been given the fewer contradictions I have found. It truly is a matter of understanding. He does not lie.
I've seen many contradictions.I've been able to explain a few, just misunderstandings, but some, I cannot explain.Like I said, they are not huge, but they do display the errancy of the Bible.101 Bible ContradictionsLots more alleged contradictionsMostly just numbers and stuff, but still.
I disagree. To me it is simply a way of life. A way of Him living in you. Religion, to me, are all the denominations which are nothing more than divisions.....I believe this, you believe that, etc. ,etc. There is One God, there is One Book and we are one body of Christ.
I agree with you, a way of life.But Christianity. The religion.I'm not referring to the faith.I always defined myself as a Christian by faith, not by religion.So many people within Christianity claim to be Christian, but are far from it.
I don't understand the Catholic Bible but there is so much involved in their religion that is against the Word of God that it doesn't interest me. I am glad you spend time in the Bible and would recommend the King James.
There is a lot of things in a lot of Christian denominations that is "against the word of God". Although the peculiar thing is, they have their own ways of justifying themselves, using the Word.It can be twisted for some pretty crazy things.That's another one of my problems with it all.You can justify totally differing viewpoints.
That was a rude comment....I'm sorry. I'm glad you don't intend to drift around...please stay in His Word. You are wise to not follow man....you can learn from them but always, always, test what anyone says in the Bible. Don't allow them to twist the meaning."Jesus was a man" like no others. He was the perfect man and He came in the flesh to show us how it could be done. He is our example.
It's okay, it's all good man.I am just confused because bible verses can be twisted to justify so many different viewpoints, that I am wondering how we draw the line in interpretation.
If I attended church it would be non-denominational. The fellowship I have with other believers is only through forums such as this. Not because of choice but when I attended churches there was so little of God's Word being taught that I truly found it to be a waste of time. Where you are very young I am old....I was awakened about three years ago to His Word and I don't have time to waste in learning all I can.
I have two questions: What have you come across in churches that you've been to that would be teaching very little of God's word. Who do you associate with in real life. Being such a close follower of the word, do you have any association with fellow believers, it being such an important part of one's spiritual growth and all? (Paul and Timothy taught on these things; matters of the church, and of one's spiritual growth). I know I am young, but young and old does not necessarily correlate with wisdom, understanding and maturity. (Not saying anything toward either of us, just a comment). I have seen a lot of stuff in the church at my age. Terrible things.
Ouch....well, I deserved that one. Sorry but I just hate to see good people being misled.
I might have been a bit harsh myself, and for that I apologize, but it had to be said.Thanks for your concern though.
I know...I've seen it spelled both ways.
Oh, okay. haha, sorry. I'm drawn to the "Quran" spelling, with a "Q". I don't think we use Q as much as we should in the english language, hah. It looks so much cooler than 'Koran' in my opinion.
I have never "heard" it either but He will lead you. With me there are small signs that let me know He is there. Talk to Him all the time, tell Him you love Him and want to understand. Ask Him to lead, guide and direct your life.....He will answer.
I know what you mean, I do.I sometimes feel though, that it is really us, and that's just our way of explaining it. When we feel we should do something, or we feel we're prompted to do something.I fear overspiritualizing everything too (almost unrelated to what I was talking about, different tangent), but under-spiritualizing everything can be a little dangerous as well. I'd like to hear more of Rob Bell's "Everything is Spiritual" tour actually.
I certainly don't have all the answers but I know some of the deeper truths and those truths let you KNOW His Word is divinely inspired. There is no doubt.
Well, if there are indeed "Deeper truths" to be discovered, I'd like to discover them.
I was angry that you were equating Islam anywhere in the vicinity of God. My nose isn't turned up but my ire was.
I wasn't necessarily equating, so much as using it as an example. It seems to be very prevalent on this site, and it seemed like the best example to use.
There is not an "eternal hell." There is no "eternal suffering or darkness." If a soul fails the last test, which is at the end of the millennium, they are thrown in the lake of fire. The expression, "smoke goes up forever and ever" is simply a Hebraism and means they are gone...just as smoke is gone.There are different sins. The sin of murder or rape can't be forgiven in this flesh life. They must go before God for Him to judge. Other sins can be forgiven through true repentence. There is however one "unforgiveable sin" which only one of God's elect can commit and only at the end of this age. The suffering souls do is to be away from our Father. They will all be taught during the millennium.They do believe it is true but it is not. You must believe in the Son. At the end of this age the elect of God will be taken before Satan for a testimony. During that time the Holy Spirit will speak through them and many, many will accept Christ then....if not, they will experience the wrath of God and will have to be taught during the millennium. [Mark 13:11]God places souls in certain bodies. There is a reason (understanding that is one of the deeper truths). It is his wish that all come to repentence. All are now given a chance and if that fails will again be tested at the end of the 1,000 years when they will be taught without the influence of Satan.
Questions here!Explain to me what you mean by all of this. Being tested again at the end of the 1000 years, and being taught in the new millenium.My understanding was: Rapture; seven years of tribulation; Jesus' millenial reign; satan being released again for a short time, then the throwing satan and his demons into the "pit of fire".Basically, until Jesus returned for the millenial reign, there would be chances for accepting Christ. But during the millenial reign, it would only be believers (and children born during the tribulation that survived). You seem to say it as if there are unbelievers who will make it through the rapture, on into the tribulation, through that into the millenial reign. Which yes, I understood there were still those who opposed Jesus, but I really didn't understand that, I figured they were the unbelieving children of those involved in the tribulation period.What about people who die unbelievers, are they brought into this 1000 years aswell?If so, then where are they now. Where are the people who've died so far?It's okay, you are forgiven for your loss of temper, it happens.I like your quote too.
 

RobinD69

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Christ confirmed the Old Testiment,and the New Testiment is written by Christ thru His disciples.The Quran contradicts both the OT and the NT on many levels.The Quran supports the views of the very books the apostles preached against while even contradicting those books,Those books are the Gnostic writings.These writings under various names have plagued Gods true followers from the beginning of time.Satan has done all he can to sway believers from the very truth Christ confirmed and preached.Islam claims to return the true faith to where it started,but Christ already did this.Christ stopped the legalism and Islam adopted legalism.Islam claims they have merely done what Israel did in the OT,but Israel did their fighting for survival while Islam did theirs for profit.I know several Muslims,probably about 8,and none of them agree on how to translate the Quran.We have a similar problem in Christianity.We all allow our preconceived notions to dictate what we believe.We throw out what we disagree with and embellish on what we agree with.The Muslims are supposed to be following the Bible as well as the Quran,but they instead reject any part of the Bible that disagrees with the Quran believing the Quran to be the truth and the Bible to have been perverted.They were given the Quran by a Merchant turned Warlord who taught them that since he was a prophet he could do all the things that are considered sin while they must adhere to the rules.Muslims are to have no more than 4 wives at a time,Muhammad had over 9 at a time.Muhammad never asked for forgiveness for any sins,he just justified them by being a prophet.Biblical prophet are held to tighter standards than the common man,while Muhammad was allowed to sin at will without repricussions.He lusted after his nephews wife,then miracalously had a vision from God that the nephew should divorce the wife so Muhammud may marry her.I am sorry but God hates divorce.In Islam you can do all the good works you like and still not be assured of paradise,but if you die while killing the infidels you get a free ticket to paradise.While Christ just have to believe in Christ and we are garunteed paradise.We cannot do this of ourselves so Christ does it for us.Christ lived a sinless life,Muhammad didnt,So who is the better example for living a Holy life,A sinless Messiah or a Sinful Messiah.We are not commanded to live like any of the Prophets but like Christ.I apologize if it seems as if I am putting down Islam,this is not my intent,I am merely expressing the differences in the faiths.
 

whirlwind

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I've seen many contradictions.I've been able to explain a few, just misunderstandings, but some, I cannot explain.So many people within Christianity claim to be Christian, but are far from it.
There will be a weeding out.
There is a lot of things in a lot of Christian denominations that is "against the word of God". Although the peculiar thing is, they have their own ways of justifying themselves, using the Word.It can be twisted for some pretty crazy things.That's another one of my problems with it all.You can justify totally differing viewpoints.
True...it is up to each of us to sift through that mess and the only way to do that is to study. Realize too...no one person knows all. So, there may be someone you really trust but even that person can make mistakes. Some of the issues aren't big and a difference of opinion is acceptable but not on any issue of salvation. You must know the facts with no twisted doctrine.
It's okay, it's all good man.I am just confused because bible verses can be twisted to justify so many different viewpoints, that I am wondering how we draw the line in interpretation.
The more you study the more spiritual discernment you will be given. If it sounds wrong keep digging, keep asking, keep praying. Remember too that there is a lot of depth to the Word. A verse can have three different meanings in how it relates to a subject but it will never, never contradict itself. Verses are twisted by men. That is exactly what Satan did with Adam and Eve and tried to do with Christ. No one on earth knows the bible as well as he does. There are many on earth today wringing every bit of truth from His letter that they can.
I have two questions: What have you come across in churches that you've been to that would be teaching very little of God's word.
Most services are one hour long. Usually just 15 or 20 minutes is the sermon and if you hear one or two actual scriptures in that time you are lucky. Pastors are supposed to feed their flock but they aren't feeding them the word of God. Instead it is about how to be a good person, what his aunt Hannah did last week that was so nice, etc. In other words....no meat! Once the flock is saved they need to be fed more than milk. Too, many twist scripture as you stated. Some teach rapture, some teach the "laughing" religion, some teach how to make money.....but they don't teach chapter by chapter and verse by verse so His Word flows and makes sense. They don't explain anything of any depth. Some of those I have listened to on television outright lie or are so deceived themselves that they are inadvertenly lying to others.
Who do you associate with in real life. Being such a close follower of the word, do you have any association with fellow believers, it being such an important part of one's spiritual growth and all? (Paul and Timothy taught on these things; matters of the church, and of one's spiritual growth).
I do associate with others of like mind but it is through this type of outlet....not in person. There are few people, family included, that I know that are not involved in churches that promote rapture or other falsehoods. They are all good people but they all trust their pastors, priests, teachers and are not reading scriptures themselves. If they did they would see the deception.
I know I am young, but young and old does not necessarily correlate with wisdom, understanding and maturity. (Not saying anything toward either of us, just a comment). I have seen a lot of stuff in the church at my age. Terrible things.
Then leave that behind and become what Christ meant the church to be...a many membered body of Christ.
Well, if there are indeed "Deeper truths" to be discovered, I'd like to discover them.I wasn't necessarily equating, so much as using it as an example. It seems to be very prevalent on this site, and it seemed like the best example to use.
There are some on this site that know what I am speaking about and there are others that are terrific folks but don't believe it. I don't know if you are being called to understand it or not...I hope you are.
Questions here!Explain to me what you mean by all of this. Being tested again at the end of the 1000 years, and being taught in the new millenium.My understanding was: Rapture; seven years of tribulation; Jesus' millenial reign; satan being released again for a short time, then the throwing satan and his demons into the "pit of fire".Basically, until Jesus returned for the millenial reign, there would be chances for accepting Christ. But during the millenial reign, it would only be believers (and children born during the tribulation that survived). You seem to say it as if there are unbelievers who will make it through the rapture, on into the tribulation, through that into the millenial reign. Which yes, I understood there were still those who opposed Jesus, but I really didn't understand that, I figured they were the unbelieving children of those involved in the tribulation period.What about people who die unbelievers, are they brought into this 1000 years aswell?If so, then where are they now. Where are the people who've died so far?
There is no rapture. We may well be in the seventh year of the time now ( seven years from "9/11" 2001.) There will be a tribulation of Satan when he will come to earth looking and acting like Christ (not too far in the future I believe) and will deceive the world. Christ tells us that he will be so good at what he does that Christ shortened the time, shortened his "hour". Those that don't know the truth, that it is the fake, will follow him and in doing so will be taking the "mark of the beast." At the end of Satan's "hour" the true Christ arrives. Once He is here then it is too late for anyone to change.All those that take the "mark of the beast" - believe Satan's lies, will endure the wrath of God (those of us that wait for Him are not harmed but we will be here - there is no rapture). All souls will spend the millennium either on one side with Christ or on the other...away from Him but no one is killed. Everyone has been changed into a spiritual body then but some will be considered spiritually dead and will be taught during the millennium. Those on the "other side" are those that took the mark but are also all unbelievers. All of them will be taught and tested at the end. If they fail that time....it's over for them, just as it is for Satan.
It's okay, you are forgiven for your loss of temper, it happens.I like your quote too.
Thank you for the forgiveness as well as approving of the C.S. Lewis quote.If you have any other questions please let me know. I usually reply by proving it in His Word but I didn't take the time to quote verses today. So...if you need scripture....let me know.........Whirlwind
 

ps77

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Yes, Whirlwind, that would be great; scripture for your beliefs on the rapture, please.
You must know the facts with no twisted doctrine.
How do we discern twisted doctrine.After all, many would call yours a twisted doctrine (about there being no rapture).
 

whirlwind

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Yes, Whirlwind, that would be great; scripture for your beliefs on the rapture, please.How do we discern twisted doctrine.After all, many would call yours a twisted doctrine (about there being no rapture).
That is why you did the right thing....ask for documentation. :bible:Most of those that teach rapture use the scripture from:1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17.Then we which are alive, and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.When they teach they don't begin where the subject of the chapter is picked up...what those two verses are talking about.4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.14.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.Paul is not saying anyone will be raptured. He is teaching, or consoling those that "sorrow" for those that have died. He is telling them that just as Christ rose....so shall we. If we believe Jesus died and rose...so shall we.Christ will descend from heaven with a shout...at the 7th and last trump and He will bring an army with Him. Those of us living at the time of that 2nd Advent will be changed into our spirit bodies...everyone will be changed.1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.Everyone will be changed into their spirit bodies - put on incorruption but some will also "put on immortality." Those are they that waited for the true Christ and didn't believe Satan's lies, God's elect. The others are incorruptible for the 1,000 years but they are not yet immortal...in other words, they are still liable to die. They are considered the "spiritually dead." They are those that will be taught during the millennium, along with others, unbelievers and such, that died before them.So...rapture teachers use the 1 Thess.4:16-17 to promote rapture (even though it is actually about where the dead are) and apparently others were also confused about Paul's teaching because he found it necessary to clarify his teaching in his following letter.11 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,,2.That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.3.Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,4.Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.From this letter we see that before Christ comes again there will first be a "falling away" which is the apostasy....when people change their faith. Satan will be sitting as God pretending to be Christ before the true Christ arrives. That is why they change their faith or fall into apostasy...they will believe he is Christ. They aren't being taught the truth.There are many scriptures that tell us what to expect and what to do during the tribulation of Satan....we will be here. One of them is:Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.He can't "make war" with us if we aren't here. There are others but think about those for a time..........Whirlwind
 

desertdude

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Hello ps77 I wrote this msg I don't want to start a debate on the forum ,and am not also postinbg this msg thinking ur easy pickings .I'm just hear to clarify some mis statements ( for lack of a better word )youve made and heard on this topic . First as muhammed being a false profit .for the sake of argument lets agree to what you say.An illterate camel driver of the old times of arabia .A land where only a few people could read and write If that is the case how would you explain that an illterate man would be able to come up with a book written in the most elequent language which was actually the basis was modern day arabic.And you also have to understand it was not "written" in ond day ,one week or months but it was revealed over decades and not in alphabectical order ( ie: chapter 1 verse 1 and so on )but when compiled together makes perfect sense . How can you explain facts that we have only discovered recently are already mentioned in the Quran 1400 yrs ago .A most recent example l can think of is of the big bang.The thining of the atmosphere as you gain altitude.The lack of ablity of light to penetrate into deep water.Both of these thing we recently found out .The earths notonly being round as belived until a few centuries back ,but geospherical and orbits of the earth and moon .The rotation of the sun on its axis.Quran talks about various subjects in like embryolgy,Geology,biology,science,astronomy. Now tell me how did an illterate man coming from the deserts of arabia come to know such things and what good did it to his people when most of them were preoccupied in matters like where their next meal is comming from. And why did he credit all this to a higher power when he could called himself god and have people worship him.Why did live such a poor life when the riches of arabia were at his feet . Some members have made non sensical claims to muhammed and islam .It is obvious they have no idea what they are talking about. Even after all said and done there are ignorant people making associations of Islam and violence and terror ,bro's and sis's If i were to associate a follower of religon to its faith .Then In my view The chirstian faith is the worst faith in the world .Why cuz who is respossible for the most number of people murderes in written history .Adolph Hitler a christian.But to make such remarks would be the most ignorant thing I can ever do .So when you associate a few of its misguided followers who are acting more on national issues rather that religious issues ,that is plain ol' not using you god given brains.YOU CANNOT BE A MUSLIM AND TERRORIST AT THE SAME TIME.what most people have read in the media a few out of context verses from the quran.I can pull a thousand from the bible if read out of context seem very terrorist like indeed . cheers !
 

ForYou

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So you are basically saying God is a liar,and has decieved us?No see God is THE ALPHA AND OMEGA the begenning and the end!!!So how could the Islams be right? If God is the begining he was there first,showing he is our creator he Created this Planet not the Islam!!!Read Genesis,How God created life!!!Plus the book of God(bible) Was written by his worshipers told word for word by GodI have some advice,Instead of becoming skeptical of the Christian faith,I suggest getting on track and praying to God,because he is the only one who will answer your prayers!!!Stay on the right track,believe!!!
 

desertdude

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Bro dukester I neversaid god is a liar and yes we "ISLAMS" believe also that god was always there from the begining and will always be there long after we have persihed till the end of time . And yes brother I have read genisis and let me tell you a story .I was in a friendly exchange with a chirstian very wise,learned and theology student friend of mine.And i decided to read the bible and he promised he would explain if i came upon any questions or doubts in the bible and by genisis chapter 3 he was at a loss for words and has requested more time and it has been a week and also admitted he duznt have the answers to all my questions ( I admire his honesty and hold in him high regard).We've had debates on various topics and his answers have not been anything less of very well researched with references to many scriptures. So brother when a learned man of chirstian theology has been stumped by a less than a layman me .Whats new for you to offer me. I've read the bible (altough not cover to cover a claim not many christian can also make) and my conclusion is it is not entriely fabricated and there is the word of god in there but not all of it . I am not skeptical of the christian faith i have tried to understand it but no matter what angle i look at it from u just cant fit a square peg in a round hole.
 

Thunder1

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ps77:I mean, my question is how do we know who's right?Who does all the evidence point to.Thunder1:I guess you just have to find out. May God help you !
 

Jordan

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Bro dukester I neversaid god is a liar and yes we "ISLAMS" believe also that god was always there from the begining and will always be there long after we have persihed till the end of time . And yes brother I have read genisis and let me tell you a story .I was in a friendly exchange with a chirstian very wise,learned and theology student friend of mine.And i decided to read the bible and he promised he would explain if i came upon any questions or doubts in the bible and by genisis chapter 3 he was at a loss for words and has requested more time and it has been a week and also admitted he duznt have the answers to all my questions ( I admire his honesty and hold in him high regard).We've had debates on various topics and his answers have not been anything less of very well researched with references to many scriptures. So brother when a learned man of chirstian theology has been stumped by a less than a layman me .Whats new for you to offer me. I've read the bible (altough not cover to cover a claim not many christian can also make) and my conclusion is it is not entriely fabricated and there is the word of god in there but not all of it . I am not skeptical of the christian faith i have tried to understand it but no matter what angle i look at it from u just cant fit a square peg in a round hole.
Please note that WE do not have the same God, get that straight. Your book says that Christ is not God, nor did he died on a cross for our sins, Our book does.Do you also realize that it is impossible to make the word muslims from the word Christ?The word Christians are derived directly from Christ.Jag
 

Jordan

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Well superjag ur right and i agree my book does not have the same GODS as ur book
Then you must know which one is telling the Truth. God told me to discern which spirit is of God or not. And yes, I had studied Christianity (denominations) and Islam, they are both corrupt. I rather stick with Christ, who can never lie, as His record is true.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
 

ps77

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So you are basically saying God is a liar,and has decieved us?
No, I don't recall accusing God of lying.
No see God is THE ALPHA AND OMEGA the begenning and the end!!!So how could the Islams be right? If God is the begining he was there first,showing he is our creator he Created this Planet not the Islam!!!
I was going to be a jerk about your grammar, but I decided to be nice.Are you talking about the fact that Christianity existed before Islam?Even so, that fact has nothing to do with anything; there were lots of religions before Christianity.
Read Genesis,How God created life!!!
Have you read Genesis lately?That's where my problems started.
Plus the book of God(bible) Was written by his worshipers told word for word by GodI have some advice,Instead of becoming skeptical of the Christian faith,I suggest getting on track and praying to God,because he is the only one who will answer your prayers!!!Stay on the right track,believe!!!
That's the problem, who's got the right track?I don't think Christianity has it right. (*disclaimer* By Christianity I am referring to the religion. The old traditions, countless denominations, etc. I realize that Christ has no denomination. And that would be a great thing if he were here to tell us now. Because apparently he came before but no one could talk about it clearly enough to be able to be certain exactly who's right.)And by saying that, I also say that I don't believe that the Muslims have it all right, or the atheists, or the Hindus, etc.I've always used this illustration:Religion is man's attempt to reach God.Christ was God's attempt to reach man.But you can only say that if you completely believe what the New Testament says about Jesus. So, can you say that? Someone research it for me, because I'm having a lot of trouble refuting claims from others about the validity of the New Testament, and it's causing me trouble.
 

whirlwind

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And yes brother I have read genisis and let me tell you a story .I was in a friendly exchange with a chirstian very wise,learned and theology student friend of mine.And i decided to read the bible and he promised he would explain if i came upon any questions or doubts in the bible and by genisis chapter 3 he was at a loss for words and has requested more time and it has been a week and also admitted he duznt have the answers to all my questions ( I admire his honesty and hold in him high regard).
There are many theology students and teachers that don't know the truth about Genesis. It is like the blind leading the blind or....the blind teaching the blind. There are also many truths that haven't been opened yet to us but please don't just go to a theology student and expect correct answers or answers with any depth. Some of us here have studied Gen.3. I don't know if we have your answer but give us a try.
I've read the bible (altough not cover to cover a claim not many christian can also make) and my conclusion is it is not entriely fabricated and there is the word of god in there but not all of it . I am not skeptical of the christian faith i have tried to understand it but no matter what angle i look at it from u just cant fit a square peg in a round hole.
It is all the Word of God....keep searching.Allow me to tell you some of the things I have learned about Islam.Mohammad thought he was insane and stayed in a cave in the mountains where he believed evil spirits were after him....much like the demon possessed man in Mark 5. However, he was told by someone, possibly an evil spirit, that he was a prophet. (I don't know how valid that is but I heard it on a television program from an evangelist....by the way, I don't put much credence in what he has to say so whether or not this was the truth???)In Mecca, the black shrine those of the Islamic faith mill around is a black meteor. There they worshipped 250 gods until Mohammad brought them together under one god - Allah.Others pieces of information: 1.The Queran was written long after the death of Mohammad as he was illiterate. 2.In the "last days" virgins and boys of alabaster skin shall attend them. YUK!More information on child molestation with "boys of alabaster skin" and girls:Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari (the most venerated and authentic Islamic source)....Aisha: the prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990:A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is ok. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will nto be eligible to marry the girl's sister.Right before Mohammad died (the great and wonderful and mighty prophet) he saw the infant daughter of a friend crawling on the floor and his exact words were...."if she lives, I will marry her."If that is what you want to be part of.....May God have mercy on your soul :pray3:.......Whirlwind
 

desertdude

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whirlwind for the sake of argument all that crap you put in your post say it true ( which 99 percent insnt ).Lets look at your proof your book which you claim to be the word of god. Whirlwind it is a book filled with stories of incest,sexual escapedes and what not .And was even banned by the christian south african goverment censor board which also consisted of 2 christian scholars.( when a part from the book of ezekiel was printed on a flyer ) even the christian scholars failed to realise what they labeled as pornography was actually a qoutation from the bible. Now tell me can you read out loud this filth in front of your family .I dare you .And if have any shred of modesty in you you wont be able to .Try ezekiel 23 from one of christandoms greatest version of the bible .My Lord what is all that about what kind of language in being used in the so called word of god . Ezekiel 23:5 according to that verse your lord has a ***** as a wife ( does that shock you well if god has no problem in using the word ***** why cant I ,dont tell me your holy'er than god ,when he can speak it you sould have no trouble hearing it ) Sweet moses what pourpose all these stories of incest and sex described in great detail have anything to do with guidance and i refuse to believe that god can ever speak such language . Whirlwind u wanna start explaning the bible to me then here you go as allways i'll start from genisis 1.1 gods makes light and calls it day v 4 god makes 2 lights sun and moon .How the source of light comes after light itself .if 1st he made sun then light no worries then .Also still in v3 he makes 2 lights sun and moon .today even a 6 yr old will tell you the moons light is not its own it does not emit light it only refelts the light of the sun.I can go on and on and on and on . It has to be the most contradictory book in exsistance today. Another little fact .The accesion of jesus a key article of faith is mentioned in only two of your gospels but him riding a donkey into jurusalem in almost word to word is there in every bible.Now you tell me as a chirstian which is more important to you his riding a donkey or his acension to heaven. If you can logically answer all the questions I have ( and these are not even the tip of the iceberg) I annouce to all people here I am ready to denouce Islam as my religon and ready to be baptised as a christian today in any church of your choosing I'll probaly be banned from this forum for saying what i have said cuz that is what usally happens when u actually pose a serious question ?My thread on jesus has been floating here for a week and only one person has actually decided to actually come up with something . I urge all of my christian brethren to stop watching and getting influenced by the anti islam propoganda machine and actually using ur own brains to come up with answers